MNRR long term plans and proposals - 2040 plan

I included the long term proposals and plans form the MNRR along with the proposed stations. I use the commuter corridor ridership gauge along with a few other transit bloggers. It factors in the amount of bus / car commuters in regions without rail and determines the amount that would switch to Rail. Its not a perfect way of planning things , but ive never been that far off form the states predictions. I do think all of this will be built sometime over the next 30 years

MNRR

Location : Northern NYC Suburbs and Connecticut

Daily Ridership : 287,000 (Projected 2030 Daily Ridership : 620,000+, mostly East of the Hudson

System size : 363 mi

Future System size : 831 mi

Stations : 120

Future upgrades / Expansions : MNRR expansion to Penn Station of the Hudson and New Haven lines , West Shore line , Restoration of the Graham & Beacon lines

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215312482559953359515.000496b73cabd9916320d&ll=41.310824,-73.575439&spn=2.211576,4.938354&t=p&z=8

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor : 500-3,000 Rail Commuters

Low Commute Corridor : 3-15,000 daily Rail Commuters

Medium Commute Corridor : 15-30,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Commute Corridor : 30-80,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Density Commute Corridor : 85,000+ Rail Commuters

HLP = High Level Platforms

NOP = No Parking

Current System

Hudson line - High Commute Corridor

Harlem line - High Commute Corridor

New Haven line - High Density Commute Corridor

Waterbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

New Canaan Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Danbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Port Jervis line - Low Commute Corridor

Pascack Valley line - Low Commute Corridor

MNRR Long Term plans /proposals

New Haven line extension to Penn Station

High Commute Corridor

This line extension would include stations in Co-Op City , Parkchester , Hunts Point. This line would come after the ESA project opens , since the LIRR will be leaving alot of slots at NYP. This line would give people in the Eastern part a faster , yet slightly more expensive way into Manhattan. I proposed a station in queens which would make sense for Commuters wishing to transfer to Subway Services in Queens / Brooklyn. I noticed Amtrak is 4 tracking and upgrading the line south of New Rochelle.

Hudson line extension to Penn Station

Medium Commute Corridor

This line would act as an Alt to GCT and give Hudson line riders another way into Midtown. This line just like the New Haven extension would come after the ESA project is completed. Stations for this line would include , West 62nd Street Station , 125th Street Station , and my proposal would be a Dyckman Street Station.

Restoration of the West Shore line

High Commute Corridor

This line would serve one of the highest commuting regions of the NYC region. The line would run form Hoboken to Kingston,NY and give Rail Access to an Estimated 470,000. Although Ridership wouldn't be that high , the line would serve cities like Jersey City , Teaneck , New Burgh and Kingston and numerous large towns. The line would be used by between 40-60,000 daily and be powered by a 3rd Rail due to Freight operations and Catenary issues. That would mean every station would have to be High Level Platform or HLP. A New area of Hoboken Terminal would have to built for this line. The line itself would need 2 Separate tracks form the freight trains to handle the massive commuter crush. The line would have stops @ Jersey City Heights / Secaucus Road /NOP , Light Rail Transit Center in North Bergen , Ridgefield Park , Cedar lane / Teaneck , Bergenfield , Haworth , Harrington Park , Tappan , Valley Cottage , Haverstraw , Stony Point , Bear Mountain Zoo / Park , Highland Falls , West Point , Cornwall on Hudson , Newburgh , Milton , Kingston. This line would probably be restored in phases to save $$$.

Restoration of the Graham line

Low Commute Corridor

This line would serve a growing congested section of Orange County. It was a mistake to end service on this branch.....the population has since exploded. The ROW is still intact meaning it can be restored although NIMBY's would be a huge issue , this line would probably get 2x the amount of commuters of the PJ line due to were it goes through the cores instead of the outskirts. DMU's would be the choice of this line and replace of the push - Pulls due to there cost saving benefits and faster accelerations.. There also less noisy... Stations would be located @ Harrimen / NOP , Monroe , Chester , Goshen , Downtown Middletown / NOP , and West Middletown

Restoration of the Beacon line

Low Commute Corridor

This line would serve a growing part of the NYC region , it would act as a connector between Hudson , Harlem , Danbury , and Waterbury lines. TOD generated by this line would create a ridership spike.....although Ridership would be low it would still be enough to justify a line. But this would not come this or even the next decade , probably sometime in the 2030s. Stations would include Beacon Town Center / NOP , Fishkill , Brinckernoff , Hopewell JCT , Brewster , Danbury , Newton , and Shelton.

Danbury line Electrification & Extension

Low Commute Corridor

This kinda explains itself , but the Danbury is growing in Ridership. If everything goes well with all the projects planned along the line in Norwalk , Georgetown , Danbury ridership without a doubt soar as it has on other lines. Most will be commuting to NYC , but a growing number will start to reverse commute up to Danbury along with other lines in the region. Newer Stations would be in Downtown Norwalk / NOP , Factory pond in Georgetown , Brookfield , and New Milford.

I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

High Commute Corridor

This line would connect High Employment areas of Westchester County with the West of the Hudson counties and Northern NJ. It would also serve the growing populations of Rockland , Bergen , and Westchester Counties , and give a new route into Manhattan for 10000s of commuters. Aka it would be a New ARC. White Plains is expecting to explode with a ton of new projects this decade mostly high rises making I-287 and other highways very congested. The line would mostly be underground and would face grade issues on the Rockland county side , but these could be over come with Newer Technologies and lighter trains via a FRA waiver. Stations would probably be located at Suffern , Airmont , Nanuet , Palisades Mall , South Nyack , Tarrytown , Fairview , White Plains Transit Center , Downtown White Plains , Manhattanville College / Purchase , Rye Brook and Port Chester Transit Station. It wouldn't be like a typical light rail line , but more like the Riverline in terms of station spacing.

Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor

It kinda explains itself , this airport will one day become the new EWR or JFK. So an Airport line will one day be needed. Probably not for a decade or 2 but one day it will be.

So what do you think ?

A few important elements that I think are all MNR needs:

Electrify to Poughkeepsie

3-track to North White Plains

Double track Danbury/extend single track to New Milford

Signalize to Waterbury, don't get a MTEA for it

Take over SLE

Keep Beacon Line in operating condition for equipment moves, no need for passenger service, but don't abandon.

Stewart Airport: a shuttle bus (no, there is no shuttle bus yet from Salisbury Mills)

Perhaps funding for NJT to add more tracks south of Suffern, I think there is a capacity issue preventing additional nonstop trains to/from Orange.

A few important elements that I think are all MNR needs:

 

Electrify to Poughkeepsie

3-track to North White Plains

Double track Danbury/extend single track to New Milford

Signalize to Waterbury, don't get a MTEA for it

Take over SLE

Keep Beacon Line in operating condition for equipment moves, no need for passenger service, but don't abandon.

 

Stewart Airport: a shuttle bus (no, there is no shuttle bus yet from Salisbury Mills)

 

Perhaps funding for NJT to add more tracks south of Suffern, I think there is a capacity issue preventing additional nonstop trains to/from Orange.

I pretty much agree with all of the proposals. Looking in next 20-25 years, if the funding from Washington, Albany and Hartford came through these are the top projects.

A shuttle bus from Woodbury Commons Mall/Wal-Mart in the Monroe(Harriman)

area to the Pt Jervis Harriman shuttle at least on weekends should have been created since like a few years ago.

Overall not horrible ideas nexis. My brief replies to your ideas.

1)Hudson line

You missing another suggestion that should be a top priority. Make the Hudson Line fully electric between Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie. The only location that it would be diffcult is at the Peekskill station.

On the extension to Penn station, if Amtrak could lower their fares from Poughkeepsie and ran little more frequent, there would be no need to rovide MNRR service.

2)I-287 Rockland-Westchester Light Rail.

Being realistic if a light rail just was created say between Tarrytown and Suffern via a proposed new Tappn Zee Bridge, that would be much cheaper.

As it is now, majority of the current Tappan Zee riders are riding only between Tarrytown and either Nyack or the Palasides Mall to park and ride.

For now just expand the Tappan Zee to run 7 days a week. (right now it does not operate on Sundays)

3)Spur to Stewart(Orange County NY)Airport on the Pt Jervis line.

If one from Seacaus-Meadownlands could be bulit, why not a spur? However it should be a light rail and I would add a stop called "New Windsor/South Newburgh" so residents in part of Newburgh ould also use the service.

There are NIMBY's up here in the Hudson Valley as well, so this project mght have a hard time.

There is a 7-day bus right now between Beacon Station and Stewart via a Newburgh Park N ride. That park and ride is just off the NY Thruway and I-84 interchange. That Bus on weekends only runs until about I believe between 8am-8pm though.

4)Create a new extension of the New Haven line running between New Haven, via Hartford and Springfield, Mass via Bradley Airport.

Over more than the Grahham and Beacon line being restarted, a new branch running between New Haven and Springfield, Mass is much more needed. Traffic on I-91, the main highway between New Haven and Springfield can be very busy.

Plus Bradley right now is much more busy than Stewart and much more needs a high speed rail line, right now.

So Nexis some of the suggestions here are not bad but likely if only a couple of these ideas becomes a reality that would a great feat.

Just my takes.

I included the long term proposals and plans form the MNRR along with the proposed stations. I use the commuter corridor ridership gauge along with a few other transit bloggers. It factors in the amount of bus / car commuters in regions without rail and determines the amount that would switch to Rail. Its not a perfect way of planning things , but ive never been that far off form the states predictions. I do think all of this will be built sometime over the next 30 years

 

MNRR

Location : Northern NYC Suburbs and Connecticut

Daily Ridership : 287,000 (Projected 2030 Daily Ridership : 620,000+, mostly East of the Hudson

System size : 363 mi

Future System size : 831 mi

Stations : 120

Future upgrades / Expansions : MNRR expansion to Penn Station of the Hudson and New Haven lines , West Shore line , Restoration of the Graham & Beacon lines

 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215312482559953359515.000496b73cabd9916320d&ll=41.310824,-73.575439&spn=2.211576,4.938354&t=p&z=8

 

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor : 500-3,000 Rail Commuters

Low Commute Corridor : 3-15,000 daily Rail Commuters

Medium Commute Corridor : 15-30,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Commute Corridor : 30-80,000 daily Rail Commuters

High Density Commute Corridor : 85,000+ Rail Commuters

HLP = High Level Platforms

NOP = No Parking

 

Current System

Hudson line - High Commute Corridor

Harlem line - High Commute Corridor

New Haven line - High Density Commute Corridor

Waterbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

New Canaan Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Danbury Branch - Low Commute Corridor

Port Jervis line - Low Commute Corridor

Pascack Valley line - Low Commute Corridor

 

MNRR Long Term plans /proposals

New Haven line extension to Penn Station

High Commute Corridor

 

This line extension would include stations in Co-Op City , Parkchester , Hunts Point. This line would come after the ESA project opens , since the LIRR will be leaving alot of slots at NYP. This line would give people in the Eastern part a faster , yet slightly more expensive way into Manhattan. I proposed a station in queens which would make sense for Commuters wishing to transfer to Subway Services in Queens / Brooklyn. I noticed Amtrak is 4 tracking and upgrading the line south of New Rochelle.

 

Hudson line extension to Penn Station

Medium Commute Corridor

 

This line would act as an Alt to GCT and give Hudson line riders another way into Midtown. This line just like the New Haven extension would come after the ESA project is completed. Stations for this line would include , West 62nd Street Station , 125th Street Station , and my proposal would be a Dyckman Street Station.

 

Restoration of the West Shore line

High Commute Corridor

 

This line would serve one of the highest commuting regions of the NYC region. The line would run form Hoboken to Kingston,NY and give Rail Access to an Estimated 470,000. Although Ridership wouldn't be that high , the line would serve cities like Jersey City , Teaneck , New Burgh and Kingston and numerous large towns. The line would be used by between 40-60,000 daily and be powered by a 3rd Rail due to Freight operations and Catenary issues. That would mean every station would have to be High Level Platform or HLP. A New area of Hoboken Terminal would have to built for this line. The line itself would need 2 Separate tracks form the freight trains to handle the massive commuter crush. The line would have stops @ Jersey City Heights / Secaucus Road /NOP , Light Rail Transit Center in North Bergen , Ridgefield Park , Cedar lane / Teaneck , Bergenfield , Haworth , Harrington Park , Tappan , Valley Cottage , Haverstraw , Stony Point , Bear Mountain Zoo / Park , Highland Falls , West Point , Cornwall on Hudson , Newburgh , Milton , Kingston. This line would probably be restored in phases to save $$$.

 

Restoration of the Graham line

Low Commute Corridor

 

This line would serve a growing congested section of Orange County. It was a mistake to end service on this branch.....the population has since exploded. The ROW is still intact meaning it can be restored although NIMBY's would be a huge issue , this line would probably get 2x the amount of commuters of the PJ line due to were it goes through the cores instead of the outskirts. DMU's would be the choice of this line and replace of the push - Pulls due to there cost saving benefits and faster accelerations.. There also less noisy... Stations would be located @ Harrimen / NOP , Monroe , Chester , Goshen , Downtown Middletown / NOP , and West Middletown

 

Restoration of the Beacon line

Low Commute Corridor

 

This line would serve a growing part of the NYC region , it would act as a connector between Hudson , Harlem , Danbury , and Waterbury lines. TOD generated by this line would create a ridership spike.....although Ridership would be low it would still be enough to justify a line. But this would not come this or even the next decade , probably sometime in the 2030s. Stations would include Beacon Town Center / NOP , Fishkill , Brinckernoff , Hopewell JCT , Brewster , Danbury , Newton , and Shelton.

 

Danbury line Electrification & Extension

Low Commute Corridor

 

This kinda explains itself , but the Danbury is growing in Ridership. If everything goes well with all the projects planned along the line in Norwalk , Georgetown , Danbury ridership without a doubt soar as it has on other lines. Most will be commuting to NYC , but a growing number will start to reverse commute up to Danbury along with other lines in the region. Newer Stations would be in Downtown Norwalk / NOP , Factory pond in Georgetown , Brookfield , and New Milford.

 

I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

High Commute Corridor

 

This line would connect High Employment areas of Westchester County with the West of the Hudson counties and Northern NJ. It would also serve the growing populations of Rockland , Bergen , and Westchester Counties , and give a new route into Manhattan for 10000s of commuters. Aka it would be a New ARC. White Plains is expecting to explode with a ton of new projects this decade mostly high rises making I-287 and other highways very congested. The line would mostly be underground and would face grade issues on the Rockland county side , but these could be over come with Newer Technologies and lighter trains via a FRA waiver. Stations would probably be located at Suffern , Airmont , Nanuet , Palisades Mall , South Nyack , Tarrytown , Fairview , White Plains Transit Center , Downtown White Plains , Manhattanville College / Purchase , Rye Brook and Port Chester Transit Station. It wouldn't be like a typical light rail line , but more like the Riverline in terms of station spacing.

 

Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor

 

It kinda explains itself , this airport will one day become the new EWR or JFK. So an Airport line will one day be needed. Probably not for a decade or 2 but one day it will be.

 

So what do you think ?

Realistic Plans:

New stations in Co-op City and Parkchester (via Hellgate)

A line across a new Tappan Zee Bridge serving Rockland County (this would replace the tunnel that Chris Christie vetoed)

Realistic Plans:

 

New stations in Co-op City and Parkchester (via Hellgate)

 

A line across a new Tappan Zee Bridge serving Rockland County (this would replace the tunnel that Chris Christie vetoed)

I know this maybe controversial but I don't Parkchester needs a Metro North station. It's so close to Manhattan.

You already have the subway and two Bronx express buses nearby.

On the other hand if the does bulid another Bronx station, it should only be at COOP City if the New Haven line is extended to Manhattan's NY Penn Station.

I know this maybe controversial but I don't Parkchester needs a Metro North station. It's so close to Manhattan.

You already have the subway and two Bronx express buses nearby.

 

On the other hand if the does bulid another Bronx station, it should only be at COOP City if the New Haven line is extended to Manhattan's NY Penn Station.

I disagree the Bronx needs more station , with the Gentrification in Hunts Point warrants a new station. These stations would lessen the strain due to growth on the train.....same goes for Parkchester and Co-Op city. The Subway system in my opinion needs every relief it can get...

Overall, I love your plan. You addressed the needs of the area, and in the most ambitious way. The best part is the simplification of the Tappan Zee Bridge plan. I feel light rail would work much better financially for the instead of a heavy rail line. I made a few points about my feelings towards specific proposals you've made:

Hudson line extension to Penn Station

-The 62nd Street station could go. Sorry, but I've never been a fan of that part of the Penn Station proposal.

-Something slightly unrelated: I would like to see HSR service from Penn Station to Albany. Even if it isn't Metro North.

Restoration of the Beacon line

-The popularity of this line amongst railfans has continued to elude me. This line serves large parts of mostly rual and suburban areas that really don't need to be connected by train.

I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

-Not to deride you in any way, but why Port Chester?

Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

-Nothing wrong with the proposal, but I have to say that Stewart will never be the new JFK or EWR. At best it'll be the next LaGuardia.

Overall, I love your plan. You addressed the needs of the area, and in the most ambitious way. The best part is the simplification of the Tappan Zee Bridge plan. I feel light rail would work much better financially for the instead of a heavy rail line. I made a few points about my feelings towards specific proposals you've made:

 

Hudson line extension to Penn Station

-The 62nd Street station could go. Sorry, but I've never been a fan of that part of the Penn Station proposal.

 

-Something slightly unrelated: I would like to see HSR service from Penn Station to Albany. Even if it isn't Metro North.

 

Restoration of the Beacon line

-The popularity of this line amongst railfans has continued to elude me. This line serves large parts of mostly rual and suburban areas that really don't need to be connected by train.

 

I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

-Not to deride you in any way, but why Port Chester?

 

Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

-Nothing wrong with the proposal, but I have to say that Stewart will never be the new JFK or EWR. At best it'll be the next LaGuardia.

@ 62nd Street Station

Lincoln Center is a few blocks away form the proposed 62nd street station thats one of the possibilities. Opening up a station there wouldn't be a waste , also the New Trump Developments next to the WSH. The Trump Developments have more to do with thew location of this station.

@ Beacon line , its not needed now but the growth forcasted for this part of the Tri-state over the next 20 years should build up enough to warrant it sometime in the 2030s....

@ I287 Rail Corridor , Port Chester would serve as a transfer point between the light rail and New Haven line. So a Commuter who is reluctant to take mass transit form say Stamford to White Plains would then use the New Haven line to Port Chester then switch to the Light Rail. Since White Plains is posed to become the next Downtown Brooklyn in terms high rises / density and shopping it is wise to connect it to the regional rail system. The Harlem is great , but you would need to have service connecting over to Amtrak / New Haven line.....for regional connectivity.

@ Stewart Airport , well maybe not as big as EWR or JFK .....but defiantly another LGA or larger version of Teterboro...

@ 62nd Street Station

Lincoln Center is a few blocks away form the proposed 62nd street station thats one of the possibilities. Opening up a station there wouldn't be a waste , also the New Trump Developments next to the WSH. The Trump Developments have more to do with thew location of this station.

 

@ Beacon line , its not needed now but the growth forcasted for this part of the Tri-state over the next 20 years should build up enough to warrant it sometime in the 2030s....

@ I287 Rail Corridor , Port Chester would serve as a transfer point between the light rail and New Haven line. So a Commuter who is reluctant to take mass transit form say Stamford to White Plains would then use the New Haven line to Port Chester then switch to the Light Rail. Since White Plains is posed to become the next Downtown Brooklyn in terms high rises / density and shopping it is wise to connect it to the regional rail system. The Harlem is great , but you would need to have service connecting over to Amtrak / New Haven line.....for regional connectivity.

 

@ Stewart Airport , well maybe not as big as EWR or JFK .....but defiantly another LGA or larger version of Teterboro...

As someone who lives in the Hudson Valley, Stewart Airport will never be as big as Newark or JFK because it's too small. However it could grow and become similar to MacArthur Airport on LI.

For now, the best best is run the stewart airport-beacon bus lines with more expanded weekend service.

For the WOH/EOH connection: Well maybe not a Light rail, on the TappenZee(I87/287) just extend a rail track and ether merge the PJV/PVL wit Hudson and/or Harlem line and continue to GCT.. Commute time plays here as well. But i like your idea on that.

For the Hudson River Line via Empire Corridor.. My guess is that Diesel trains would be used here.. By putting EMUs here it would require a lot of work to place third rail along the ROW. Plus that area is Amtrak property and the MNR will have to work with AMK to also add 2 tracks on the Inwood Swing bridge.

For the WOH/EOH connection: Well maybe not a Light rail, on the TappenZee(I87/287) just extend a rail track and ether merge the PJV/PVL wit Hudson and/or Harlem line and continue to GCT.. Commute time plays here as well. But i like your idea on that.

 

For the Hudson River Line via Empire Corridor.. My guess is that Diesel trains would be used here.. By putting EMUs here it would require a lot of work to place third rail along the ROW. Plus that area is Amtrak property and the MNR will have to work with AMK to also add 2 tracks on the Inwood Swing bridge.

The Grades on the Rockland side are too steep for commuter Rail....one look at I-287 just west of PPP Mall and you'll know what i'm taking about. Light Rail or Subways are better suited to handle those types of grades and usage. Commuter Rail might see issues due to capacity.... The Hudson line is already 3rd Railed in the tunnel section , i'm sure capacity will free up when the ESA project is completed. That is when the MNRR plans to construct the Penn station connections... The Swing Bridge i heard will be replaced as a part of this project.

Build it.

- A

Build it.

 

 

- A

Metsfan where the money? This is not 1890. If only a few of these projects are bulit that would be great. I already listed my takes but sometimes I think Metsfan you living in the wrong period of US History with your love of the railroads. I a m saying that because you underestimating the importance also of the interstate/freeways in America as well.

I agree we in America needs to bulid new HSR railroads but we also need to re-bulid a now aging Interstate/Highway system. The rails can not deliver to your supermarket all of the groceries and goods to the big city or anywhere else.

You need both.:eek:

Metsfan where the money? This is not 1890. If only a few of these projects are bulit that would be great. I already listed my takes but sometimes I think Metsfan you living in the wrong period of US History with your love of the railroads. I a m saying that because you underestimating the importance also of the interstate/freeways in America as well.

 

I agree we in America needs to bulid new HSR railroads but we also need to re-bulid a now again Interstate/Highway system. The rails can not deliver to your superarket all of the groceries and goods to the big city or anywhere else.

You need both.:eek:

Rail stimulus package via the federal government. Rail transport is going to be a lot more imperative in the future, and now is the time to do it. Rail can't deliver to the supermarket, but it can transport a lot more goods than a truck can. (and the problem is only getting it from the rail cargo point to the markets).

Whoa , how did this turn to HSR.....thats completely different.... More expensive aswell , the only 2 lines that will cost 500 million $$ + are the West Shore line and the I287 Rail Corridor the rest should cost less then 500 million $$$.

I edited the Map , added the correct Commuter Rail proposal for the I287 Corridor , and I still kept the Light Rail as a mere suggestion East of the Hudson. A Friend suggested adding a spur to the Airport... He said the Idea of BRT is ridiculous West of the Hudson , and says East of the Hudson my not be a good long term investment.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215312482559953359515.000496b73cabd9916320d&ll=41.139365,-73.65509&spn=1.088018,2.469177&z=9

Just a point of correction on the map. Part of what is tagged the Beacon Line is not. From the NY/CT boarder east to Danbury is not the Beacon Line but the Maybrook Line. It is owned by HRRC (Housatonic Railroad) as is the line going north from Danbury to New Milford.

New Haven line extension to Penn Station

High Commute Corridor

Maybe limited off-peak service IF and when Amtrak extends from HAROLD beyond GATE. The trackage between HAROLD west continuing into NYP is some of the busiest in the country, and throwing NHL trains into the mix is only going to complicate the matter. I also don't see the additional stations and service bringing in all that much revenue, nor do I see it saving any significant time when compared to riding into GCT and then going to Penn via cab, subway, bus, on foot or in a rickshaw for that matter. As far as alleviating train crowding... who cares? Metro-North doesn't, and NYC Transit shouldn't expect Metro-North to care.

Hudson line extension to Penn Station

Medium Commute Corridor

Refer to my previous paragraph.

Restoration of the West Shore line

High Commute Corridor

The investment would outweigh the return.

Restoration of the Graham line

Low Commute Corridor

Trains running to and from Port Jervis DO run via the Graham Line. The former Erie Main Line between Harriman and Guymard was abandoned in 1983 or 1984 and all freight and passenger service was sent over the former Erie Graham Line, which lives on as the current Port Jervis Line.

Restoration of the Beacon line

Low Commute Corridor

Just as Truckie stated, the Housatonic Railroad owns the Maybrook Line east of the NY-CT state line to Derby Junction where the line meets the Metro-North/CDOT Waterbury Branch. The Maybrook meets the Danbury Branch at it's northern terminus, and should Danbury Branch service be extended to New Milford, Metro-North would run on the Housatonic Railroad Berkshire Line. The current Beacon-Maybrook Line is in rough shape, though it was used to move equipment out of Danbury. I'll sum it up that in order for this line to be used for revenue moves, which it probably never will be because there isn't the need to, the entire line would have to be replaced and updated to allow for PTC, to straighten out some nasty curves and to improve the under- and overpasses and grade crossings. Electrification would be even more ludicrous of an idea. There are a lot of other issues as well involving legalities (think Rails for Trails) and trackage rights.

Danbury line Electrification & Extension

Low Commute Corridor

There's an outside chance of the Danbury Branch being re-electrified, though I doubt that it will anytime soon. Third rail cannot be used and the R.O.W. would need some heavy vegetation cutting in order to install an overhead catenary system. Electrification will not even improve upon existing times more than a minute or two along the branch. It will, however, help service during inclement weather spells, as EMU's are generally preferred for grade climbs in slick track conditions.

I-287 Rail Corridor - Light Rail

High Commute Corridor.

I can't comment.

Stewart Airport Branch of the Port Jervis line

Rural / Low Density Commute Corridor

Again, I don't know enough about that to comment.

The bottom line with all of these ideas is that Metro-North already has their hands tied between the current projects and the perpetual issue of maintenance. Not only that, but where the hell is the money going to come from? You listed tens of billions of dollars and decades worth of studies, designing, installation, planning and future maintenance that just isn't feasible. And if new services are going to be added, you do realize that more equipment will need to be purchased, more M.O.W. and operations workers will need to be hired and fares will need to be raised even more?

Sorry, but I personally don't see any of these happening.

Actually in Hawaii, and places with rail lines under construction they charge an extra tax to pay for the construction. Maybe the same things could be implemented here in NYC, and NY to get rail lines, and mass transit lines built, and done.

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

Maybe limited off-peak service IF and when Amtrak extends from HAROLD beyond GATE. The trackage between HAROLD west continuing into NYP is some of the busiest in the country, and throwing NHL trains into the mix is only going to complicate the matter. I also don't see the additional stations and service bringing in all that much revenue, nor do I see it saving any significant time when compared to riding into GCT and then going to Penn via cab, subway, bus, on foot or in a rickshaw for that matter. As far as alleviating train crowding... who cares? Metro-North doesn't, and NYC Transit shouldn't expect Metro-North to care.

 

 

 

Refer to my previous paragraph.

 

 

 

 

The investment would outweigh the return.

 

 

 

Trains running to and from Port Jervis DO run via the Graham Line. The former Erie Main Line between Harriman and Guymard was abandoned in 1983 or 1984 and all freight and passenger service was sent over the former Erie Graham Line, which lives on as the current Port Jervis Line.

 

 

 

Just as Truckie stated, the Housatonic Railroad owns the Maybrook Line east of the NY-CT state line to Derby Junction where the line meets the Metro-North/CDOT Waterbury Branch. The Maybrook meets the Danbury Branch at it's northern terminus, and should Danbury Branch service be extended to New Milford, Metro-North would run on the Housatonic Railroad Berkshire Line. The current Beacon-Maybrook Line is in rough shape, though it was used to move equipment out of Danbury. I'll sum it up that in order for this line to be used for revenue moves, which it probably never will be because there isn't the need to, the entire line would have to be replaced and updated to allow for PTC, to straighten out some nasty curves and to improve the under- and overpasses and grade crossings. Electrification would be even more ludicrous of an idea. There are a lot of other issues as well involving legalities (think Rails for Trails) and trackage rights.

 

 

 

There's an outside chance of the Danbury Branch being re-electrified, though I doubt that it will anytime soon. Third rail cannot be used and the R.O.W. would need some heavy vegetation cutting in order to install an overhead catenary system. Electrification will not even improve upon existing times more than a minute or two along the branch. It will, however, help service during inclement weather spells, as EMU's are generally preferred for grade climbs in slick track conditions.

 

 

 

I can't comment.

 

 

 

Again, I don't know enough about that to comment.

 

The bottom line with all of these ideas is that Metro-North already has their hands tied between the current projects and the perpetual issue of maintenance. Not only that, but where the hell is the money going to come from? You listed tens of billions of dollars and decades worth of studies, designing, installation, planning and future maintenance that just isn't feasible. And if new services are going to be added, you do realize that more equipment will need to be purchased, more M.O.W. and operations workers will need to be hired and fares will need to be raised even more?

 

Sorry, but I personally don't see any of these happening.

1.

The Extension of the New Haven line to Penn is a go form what a MNRR engineer told me. It would benefit people commuting to the Penn station area form Westchester , and CT , and to fill in the gaps in the NYC subway , along with taking pressure off the 6 train in the future form the Hunts Point Redevelopment plans. The Trackage form New Rochelle to Penn station is being upgraded as we speak. New Tracks and wires are going up....and third tracking some sections. As for the Hudson line this would service the Trump Developments , Harlem and Dyckman Street.... It would take pressure of the ever congested 1/A/2/3 lines..... Alot people along both lines would be willing to pay more for a faster commute to Midtown , thats not hard to see if you look at the City Terminal commuting habits. The Subways are ok.....but if you need to be somewhere faster , regional rail is better. The Infrastructure except for a few things is already in place.....both lines wouldn't cost that much to restore...and would have big returns.

2.

The West Shore line serves one of the highest commuting areas in the Region , majority of commuters in this section of Bergen and Rockland counties commute south by bus or car to Jersey City / Lower Manhattan. There aren't many highways or Major Roadways to handle the crush of commuters....so a Railway will be needed sometime in the future. Rockland , Orange and Bergen counties have it in there long term plans. North of Haverstraw could use Rail service as well to service Harrimen State Park / Bear Mountain which causes huge jams in the summer along with West Point , North of west Point the line might as well go to Newburgh where i'm sure city leaders will welcome it. Orange county is really trying to solve there congestion issues , same with the other counties.....its not that hard to see if you look at a population growth map and commuter maps. Past Newburgh is a stretch though , but why not try to extend to Kingston?

3.

I mean't to say the Main line , but i got my lines mixed up....but just like the West Shore line to a lesser extent this line restoration is needed due to congestion. Its also in the Orange County Transportation plans.

4.

The HTC is looking into restoring the Maybrook and Pittsfield lines for Passenger service. As for Electrification , thats unlikely.....of course due to the low usage the line will get....but over the next few decades this corridor will grow and full Rail service will be needed.

5.

ROW clearing isn't that hard.....and i don't think it will happen this decade....and yes i know it will be overhead.....

-My Closing argument is you know little to nothing about the areas surrounding the corridors.....you just assume the subway covers or can handle an increase in population or that people don't want to pay extra to go to Midtown or somewhere else. I have the list of developments that these lines would help and alot of towns would benefit form a restoration of Rail service. Alot of areas of the NYC region have a strong commuting base , yet are undeserved or aren't serviced by Rail.... Most growing areas have terrible highway connections or no bus service.... I look down the road , maybe its not needed now , but what about 10 or 20 years form now? You can't keep growing without a decent transit network to handle it... As for the $$$ , i think the Northeast will see PPP's , or Private - Public projects in which Private puts up half or most of the $$$ and the Govt puts up the rest.... Some systems in the western part of the US , and in Aussieland are built this way....

We have transportation taxes and bonds coming out the bloody wazoo already, which assumes the money even gets to the MTA in the first place.

Ahhh... how true that is and it has often been the case in the past.

1.

The Extension of the New Haven line to Penn is a go form what a MNRR engineer told me. It would benefit people commuting to the Penn station area form Westchester , and CT , and to fill in the gaps in the NYC subway , along with taking pressure off the 6 train in the future form the Hunts Point Redevelopment plans. The Trackage form New Rochelle to Penn station is being upgraded as we speak. New Tracks and wires are going up....and third tracking some sections. As for the Hudson line this would service the Trump Developments , Harlem and Dyckman Street.... It would take pressure of the ever congested 1/A/2/3 lines..... Alot people along both lines would be willing to pay more for a faster commute to Midtown , thats not hard to see if you look at the City Terminal commuting habits. The Subways are ok.....but if you need to be somewhere faster , regional rail is better. The Infrastructure except for a few things is already in place.....both lines wouldn't cost that much to restore...and would have big returns.

Interesting, considering that I commute into the city with someone who has a bit more knowledge of the topic than this engineer, and we chat several times a week about operations and things of this nature. Metro-North has yet to even test the M8's between GATE and NYP, and I doubt that any regular service would take place until all track and power work and upgrades through that area have been completed. My guess is that if New Haven Line trains ever do run into NYP, it won't be until ACSES is implemented throughout the entire NEC and some NJT trains are routed into the nearby terminal, at the earliest.

Forget about the subway influencing what services any of the railroads in this region offer. The Lexington Line has been overcrowded for years nor will all phases of the SAS be completed anytime soon. Neither of those factors put a damper on the East Side Access project.

And I'll again bring up the reality of that matter than NYP already has a difficult enough time handling the traffic that it currently sees. How do you propose it handles the additional trains coming into and out of the station.

2.

The West Shore line serves one of the highest commuting areas in the Region , majority of commuters in this section of Bergen and Rockland counties commute south by bus or car to Jersey City / Lower Manhattan. There aren't many highways or Major Roadways to handle the crush of commuters....so a Railway will be needed sometime in the future. Rockland , Orange and Bergen counties have it in there long term plans. North of Haverstraw could use Rail service as well to service Harrimen State Park / Bear Mountain which causes huge jams in the summer along with West Point , North of west Point the line might as well go to Newburgh where i'm sure city leaders will welcome it. Orange county is really trying to solve there congestion issues , same with the other counties.....its not that hard to see if you look at a population growth map and commuter maps. Past Newburgh is a stretch though , but why not try to extend to Kingston?

A good number of people already drive to Tarrytown and ride the train from that station. I've yet to hear of an environmental impact study nor a survey that shows the demand for that service to be offered. If you can provide solid, current statistics that justify the billions of dollars that it would cost for infrastructure and signal upgrades, equipment procurement, scheduling, dispatching, construction of yards, stations, sidings and interlockings as well as cost of increasing M.O.W. and operations staff, then I'll give you that one.

3.

I mean't to say the Main line , but i got my lines mixed up....but just like the West Shore line to a lesser extent this line restoration is needed due to congestion. Its also in the Orange County Transportation plans.

Main Line will NEVER happen. It runs on some steep grades and the R.O.W. passes through the center of several towns, including Middletown, which turned the former Erie station into the Thrall Library. It's also not really far from the current route. If anything, more frequent service along the existing Port Jervis Line should be the main focus in that area.

4.

The HTC is looking into restoring the Maybrook and Pittsfield lines for Passenger service. As for Electrification , thats unlikely.....of course due to the low usage the line will get....but over the next few decades this corridor will grow and full Rail service will be needed.

There isn't a need for service to be offered along the Maybrook-Beacon, and Sherman would be the furthest north that any passenger trains into NYC should ever go. Both the Harlem Line and the Danbury Branch are close by, and the cost of infrastructure upgrades, signal installation and operation will never be worth the revenue that passenger service would bring in.

5.

ROW clearing isn't that hard.....and i don't think it will happen this decade....and yes i know it will be overhead.....

Double-tracking the line, or at least certain sections, would, in my personal opinion, be the most logical and best complement to electrification.

-My Closing argument is you know little to nothing about the areas surrounding the corridors.....you just assume the subway covers or can handle an increase in population or that people don't want to pay extra to go to Midtown or somewhere else. I have the list of developments that these lines would help and alot of towns would benefit form a restoration of Rail service. Alot of areas of the NYC region have a strong commuting base , yet are undeserved or aren't serviced by Rail.... Most growing areas have terrible highway connections or no bus service.... I look down the road , maybe its not needed now , but what about 10 or 20 years form now? You can't keep growing without a decent transit network to handle it... As for the $$$ , i think the Northeast will see PPP's , or Private - Public projects in which Private puts up half or most of the $$$ and the Govt puts up the rest.... Some systems in the western part of the US , and in Aussieland are built this way....

True, I don't know a lot about the demographics of the area, but I do know enough about the costs of operations, infrastructure upgrades, renovations, rehabilitations and installations to know that before any of those plans come to fruition, years and years worth of studies will be conducted to justify any and all expenses, regardless of where the money comes from. Train service is offered to everyone's house in Utopia. Please be realistic.

From what you guys are telling me I am assuming the best solution for the Main Line is to build it as a light rail line or something like that, and have it run onto streets at the town where the former station has been turned into a library.

Ahhh... how true that is and it has often been the case in the past.

 

 

 

Interesting, considering that I commute into the city with someone who has a bit more knowledge of the topic than this engineer, and we chat several times a week about operations and things of this nature. Metro-North has yet to even test the M8's between GATE and NYP, and I doubt that any regular service would take place until all track and power work and upgrades through that area have been completed. My guess is that if New Haven Line trains ever do run into NYP, it won't be until ACSES is implemented throughout the entire NEC and some NJT trains are routed into the nearby terminal, at the earliest.

 

Forget about the subway influencing what services any of the railroads in this region offer. The Lexington Line has been overcrowded for years nor will all phases of the SAS be completed anytime soon. Neither of those factors put a damper on the East Side Access project.

 

And I'll again bring up the reality of that matter than NYP already has a difficult enough time handling the traffic that it currently sees. How do you propose it handles the additional trains coming into and out of the station.

 

 

 

A good number of people already drive to Tarrytown and ride the train from that station. I've yet to hear of an environmental impact study nor a survey that shows the demand for that service to be offered. If you can provide solid, current statistics that justify the billions of dollars that it would cost for infrastructure and signal upgrades, equipment procurement, scheduling, dispatching, construction of yards, stations, sidings and interlockings as well as cost of increasing M.O.W. and operations staff, then I'll give you that one.

 

 

 

Main Line will NEVER happen. It runs on some steep grades and the R.O.W. passes through the center of several towns, including Middletown, which turned the former Erie station into the Thrall Library. It's also not really far from the current route. If anything, more frequent service along the existing Port Jervis Line should be the main focus in that area.

 

 

 

There isn't a need for service to be offered along the Maybrook-Beacon, and Sherman would be the furthest north that any passenger trains into NYC should ever go. Both the Harlem Line and the Danbury Branch are close by, and the cost of infrastructure upgrades, signal installation and operation will never be worth the revenue that passenger service would bring in.

 

 

 

Double-tracking the line, or at least certain sections, would, in my personal opinion, be the most logical and best complement to electrification.

 

 

 

True, I don't know a lot about the demographics of the area, but I do know enough about the costs of operations, infrastructure upgrades, renovations, rehabilitations and installations to know that before any of those plans come to fruition, years and years worth of studies will be conducted to justify any and all expenses, regardless of where the money comes from. Train service is offered to everyone's house in Utopia. Please be realistic.

1.

This would happen after the ESA open , when the LIRR takes a decent amount of slots with it to GCT. Both lines are needed due to the growing population...and redevelopments in areas without subway service but would be allowed to hook into this network. Like i said this would happen till the early 2020s.....Amtrak plans and is already upgrading there section of the NEC and plans on adding more capacity.

2.

Well seeing that you already see people driving over to Tarrytown or taking the Ferry that should be enough to tell you there is demand. Alot people use buses. I try to find my Counties reports on the corridor. But theres an estimated that 20-40,000 will use the corridor phase one has it running form Hoboken to Haverstraw. Phase 2 Haverstraw - Newburgh has not been studied , but i would put ridership at 15-20,000 that would vary season to season. Less in the Winter , more in the Spring - Fall.....

3.

Maybe not in Regular Rail , but in a RiverLine type format.....with the growing NY 17 Corridor population , i don't see an issue. Ridership is there....cost might be a challenge....

4.

The HTC is a private company....they are allowed to do as they please....they must see potential in both lines....

5.

I don't think the Danbury line will ever meet double tracking status , but more sidings are needed.

I am being realistic....very realistic....I send all my proposals and the plans by the RR's past.....Engineer , Conductor and Planner friends. Cost might not be an Issue once the MTA and other agencies start allowing PPP's to help out with projects. I think you need to research more......