B44 +SelectBusService+

[TeeLow]

Good grief; thank you for pointing that out.

 

But I was thinking that the B84 should be extended westward so it would serve a greater purpose by filling in a service gap on Empire Blvd and not just being a dinky shuttle with 30 minute headways. I thought the B84 would be the best route to send across Empire if the B49 were to serve NY/Brooklyn Aves and remain at Franklin-Fulton.

 

They could send the B84 via Blake Ave or Sutter Ave b/w E 98 and Pennsylvania Ave since neither Blake nor Sutter gets interrupted by Van Sinderen. Or Blake or Sutter b/w Penn and Gaston and Livonia b/w Gaston and E 98, and b/w Penn and New Lots.

 

I am trying to tackle two main problems by extending the B84 to Prospect Park via Empire Blvd:

 

-The fact that the B84 is a dinky shuttle with 30 minute headways; if it were extended all the way to Prospect Park perhaps they could run it at better headways.

 

-The service gap on Empire Blvd.

 

-Also this is assuming the B49 would not be available to serve Empire.

 

I wonder what BrooklynBus thinks about running a service other than the B49 across Empire while putting the B49 on NY/Brooklyn to replace the B44 local, and if he or anybody else has an opinion about which route should do it. (I say B84 for the aforementioned reasons.)

Your proposal is certainly ambitious. Sutter would be a viable option since it crosses the in both directions (although IMO Pitkin Ave might be even better since it would be a straight run into ENY Ave). MTA would shoot it down stating it would be an unnecessary east/west route with the B12, 14 & 15 already serving the general area e/o E98th St and B12 & 35 serving Brooklyn w/o E98th. They would deem the gap on Empire btn Kingston (B43/49) & Utica "walking distance" and not worth the extra money needed to extend the route across Empire (if your proposal for the B49 moving to NY/Brooklyn Ave was enacted). BTW, what happens to the B43 if B49 runs on NY/Bklyn? Two lines aren't needed to serve that route.

 

I don't think extending the B84 would be a viable solution.

[BrooklynIRT]

B35 via Church said that running the southbound B43 and B49 on Brooklyn Ave is fine because the two routes serve very different purposes (B43 to Prospect PK, B49 all the way to KCC). I think the B43 can be left unchanged, but I do not know for certain. I barely know the B43.

If you do not think extending the B84 would be viable, do you think it would be viable to send the B49 up Ocean and Empire to Utica and come up with some new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand while placing the B44 local on Rogers? That is pretty much BrooklynBus' idea.

 

Assuming this is about addressing the Empire Blvd problem and the NY/Rogers Ave problem, there seem to be two solutions:

 

-My solution, which is to run the B84 across ENY/Brownsville and then Empire Blvd to Prospect PK, put the B49 on NY/Brooklyn but still have it terminate at Franklin-Fulton, and put the B44 local on Rogers.

 

-BrooklynBus' solution, which is to put the B49 on Ocean and Empire to terminate at Utica/Empire, either create a new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand or run the B43 to KCH or something (probably better to create a new route, given B35 via Church's statements about B43 ridership to Prospect PK.....), and put the B44 local on Rogers.

[BrooklynBus]

 

But I was just thinking, what about running the B84 across Livonia, up E 98 St, and then west on ENY Ave and then Empire all the way to Prospect Park?

Since you asked me for an answer, I will give you one. What you propose is basically a new level of service over what is there now. As I stated before, anyone can come up with additional layers of service. That is not difficult. Unfortunately it is also very expensive. What I proposed only involved only two additional blocks of service which the MTA still considers too much.

 

What you are proposing involves miles of new service, unless you are proposing cutting half the B43 service at Empire and Brooklyn so that only half the buses operate along Empire Blvd. Even if that were the case, the rest of the route is still additional service without a proven need. Is the Spring Creek shopping center such a draw that riders from Empire Blvd or East 98 Street would go there, or would they choose Kings Plaza instead which they already have access to? I think east west service east of Utica is adequate with the B12 and B14. The only east west problem is that the B45 or B65 abruptly ends without a transfer to an east west route, but we already discussed that one.

 

I used to wonder about Livonia also, but have since concluded that I don't think the demand Is there. If Livonia were more of a commercial strip, the situation might be different. But it is pretty much dead, so I think the subway is enough. If monies were unlimited, your proposal might have made some sense.

[TeeLow]

B35 via Church said that running the southbound B43 and B49 on Brooklyn Ave is fine because the two routes serve very different purposes (B43 to Prospect PK, B49 all the way to KCC). I think the B43 can be left unchanged, but I do not know for certain. I barely know the B43.

 

If you do not think extending the B84 would be viable, do you think it would be viable to send the B49 up Ocean and Empire to Utica and come up with some new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand while placing the B44 local on Rogers? That is pretty much BrooklynBus' idea.

 

Assuming this is about addressing the Empire Blvd problem and the NY/Rogers Ave problem, there seem to be two solutions:

 

-My solution, which is to run the B84 across ENY/Brownsville and then Empire Blvd to Prospect PK, put the B49 on NY/Brooklyn but still have it terminate at Franklin-Fulton, and put the B44 local on Rogers.

 

-BrooklynBus' solution, which is to put the B49 on Ocean and Empire to terminate at Utica/Empire, either create a new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand or run the B43 to KCH or something (probably better to create a new route, given B35 via Church's statements about B43 ridership to Prospect PK.....), and put the B44 local on Rogers.

43 & 49 sharing a route n/o Empire or 49 running across Empire to/from Ocean with 43 crossing Empire serving points south to KCH and beyond?

 

I've already made my point clear as crystal in previous posts. Although intriguing, I don't think the B84 option is really something the MTA would even consider and, if it was implemented, would be one of the very first new routes cut when times get lean. OTOH it would be more difficult to cut the 43/49 option BrooklynBus proposed if MTA singled up B44 N/B on Rogers because of the rerouting of TWO lines to accommodate the 44 move, and how many people it would leave in a lurch. So in matters of logistics, and IMO, common sense, I believe BrooklynBus' proposal is better; not from any personal reason on my part; just that it is the more effective solution.

 

Again, IMO.

[BrooklynIRT]

So now we forget about the B84, and it seems to be either:

 

-Move the B49 to NYA, the B44 local to Rogers, and leave Empire Blvd alone

 

or

 

-Run the B49 via Ocean and Empire to Utica, move the B44 local to Rogers, and create a new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand (probably not a good idea to run the B43 to KCH instead of Prospect PK...).

[BrooklynIRT]

Well actually the proposal involving the B49 via Ocean and Empire is not even as clear cut as I made it seem in post #1030, since it seems that the B43 and B49 cannot be on Empire together for such a long distance. Damn, this is hard.

[BrooklynBus]

As I said before, playing with the bus routes is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. All the pieces have to fit, with no left over segments.

[B22viaAtlanticAv]

So now we forget about the B84, and it seems to be either:

 

-Move the B49 to NYA, the B44 local to Rogers, and leave Empire Blvd alone

 

or

 

-Run the B49 via Ocean and Empire to Utica, move the B44 local to Rogers, and create a new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand (probably not a good idea to run the B43 to KCH instead of Prospect PK...).

A simple switch between the B44Lcl and the NB B49 would be enough for the MTA.

[B35 via Church]

The reason the B43 has more riders than the B48 is because B48 riders have the alternative of the Franklin Shuttle in the same corridor. But I still doubt that someone near the terminal would choose the B43 over the B48 to get to the Fulton Subway which seems to be what you are implying,

 

Anyway, you would need to do an O/D study before undertaking any major reroutes like I am suggesting to determine if you would be causing any major incoveniences which you are also implying if the southern terminal were changed. You can't make such changes by simply relying on traffic counts as the MTA does. You need to know where people are going and transferring to. Can you get this from MetroCard data? If so, that would be great.

It's more than one reason, there is no solitary reason.... It's also because more people want the 43 north of fulton than they do the 48.... 

Again, you can doubt it all, but it's what's currently going on with the route (43)....

 

As for your inquiry, if by that you mean what primary, second, etc. mode of transit people are using to get to where they have to go, I believe that can obtained that from MC data (I'm not gonna make the technical argument of those that still pay w/ change on the bus, b/c those folks are in the minority)..... One thing I wanted to do w/ my old metrocards were to snail mail em to the MTA, so I could get a printout of every single bus route I utilized the card(s) on, but kept procrastinating & never got around to it.....

 

The discussion has really taken off since I last posted. No need for me to jump back into it. All view points have pretty much been adequately defended. I just wanted to make one point:

 

What problem? We're having a discussion. I have absolutely no problem with anything you said. You joined the conversation and defended your position very well. I thought my points were valid and I stand by them. So what problem? There is none.

 

Enjoy

The contrary is well implicated to me in that opening statement of yours, in your reply to one of my posts.....

"It's all speculation, basically a 'what if' scenario if the B44 is moved from NY Ave."

 

I'm not that dumb to believe these aren't "what if" scenarios & speculations..... How could all of what we're discussing, happen with the routes in question being discussed....

 

So now we forget about the B84, and it seems to be either:

 

-Move the B49 to NYA, the B44 local to Rogers, and leave Empire Blvd alone

 

or

 

-Run the B49 via Ocean and Empire to Utica, move the B44 local to Rogers, and create a new route to replace the B44 local east of Nostrand (probably not a good idea to run the B43 to KCH instead of Prospect PK...).

Not that I side with the 44 local on Rogers, but if I had to choose, it would be option 1.....

 

The gap that exists on Empire blvd is a totally separate issue, in light of the concerns riders will have if the remaining service along NY av (the 44 local) be revoked.... I understand it's one option to keeping the 49 running north of flatbush/foster, but still.....

 

So what has been said about the 49 (of which I can recall):

- possible MTA truncation at flatbush av

- divert the thing along NY av/Brooklyn

- divert the thing along ocean (past foster, northward) & along empire

- divert the thing along NY av/Bedford

- bi-directional service on Bedford

- nothing'll happen, and it'll remain running on bedford/rogers, with the 44 local remaining on NY av & the SBS on rogers......

 

Well actually the proposal involving the B49 via Ocean and Empire is not even as clear cut as I made it seem in post #1030, since it seems that the B43 and B49 cannot be on Empire together for such a long distance. Damn, this is hard.

Which is one reason why BrooklynBus would run 43's to KCH.... Having the 43 & the 49 along Empire would be overkill.....

 

A simple switch between the B44Lcl and the NB B49 would be enough for the MTA.

Of course, since it's the cheapest option....

[BNQtrain3912]

A simple switch between the B44Lcl and the NB B49 would be enough for the MTA.

i agree

[BrooklynIRT]

It is not a good idea to have a bus go up one road and then come back down another road that is so far away. It was said that the distance between NY Ave (the would-be northbound road for the B49) and Bedford Ave (the southbound road for the B49, quite far from NY Ave) is too great. This is why the southbound B49 would probably have to use Brooklyn and NY Aves instead of Bedford if the northbound B49 were moved from Rogers to NY Ave.

[BrooklynBus]

@B35 via Church. Thinking about it further, I do not believe that MetroCard data would be as useful as an O/D surey since it only tells you the bus routes and subway stations used. It does not know which stop you boarded the bus so you may be able to determine the info you need for planning purposes, but it is still better tan relying on traffic counts for planning purposes which are most secular for scheduling purposes which is not the same thing.

[bobtehpanda]

@B35 via Church. Thinking about it further, I do not believe that MetroCard data would be as useful as an O/D surey since it only tells you the bus routes and subway stations used. It does not know which stop you boarded the bus so you may be able to determine the info you need for planning purposes, but it is still better tan relying on traffic counts for planning purposes which are most secular for scheduling purposes which is not the same thing.

 

Theoretically, the use of BusTrek could be expanded to also see Metrocard usage at stops since (this is just an assumption) you now have location data, but this might be something we'll have to explore with the newer fare payment.

[B35 via Church]

It is not a good idea to have a bus go up one road and then come back down another road that is so far away. It was said that the distance between NY Ave (the would-be northbound road for the B49) and Bedford Ave (the southbound road for the B49, quite far from NY Ave) is too great. This is why the southbound B49 would probably have to use Brooklyn and NY Aves instead of Bedford if the northbound B49 were moved from Rogers to NY Ave.

FTR, Never said anything about it being a good (or bad) idea, I was only listing what has been brought up about the B49, as it pertains to the B44 & its moving/movement along Rogers......

 

You must not be too fond of the M5's routing in the Village then.....

 

@B35 via Church. Thinking about it further, I do not believe that MetroCard data would be as useful as an O/D surey since it only tells you the bus routes and subway stations used.

 

It does not know which stop you boarded the bus so you may be able to determine the info you need for planning purposes, but it is still better tan relying on traffic counts for planning purposes which are most secular for scheduling purposes which is not the same thing.

...and the time boarded (for the bus, sans SBS that is).

 

But yeah, I thought about what you were asking with this when I was out yesterday..... It wouldn't (couldn't) log what stop you boarded (or disembarked)..... The former (embarking, [a bus]) is where off board payment would be more useful for that particular purpose, but the latter (disembarking).... Only thing I can think of that could determine that is the filling out of an O/D (origin/destination, for those reading that don't know what that is) survey by every rider in our system..... Because as you know, after you pay the fare on a farebox/SBS payment machine/turnstile, that's the only responsibility a commuter/passenger really has when it comes to public transportation as far as that goes..... You get off the bus/train at whatever stop/station you're disembarking & that's it....

 

I remember NJT having a policy where b/o's would hand you a receipt & you had to hand it back to the driver when you got off, but nobody really follows that policy anymore; the drivers seldom give them anymore, and when they did, pax would either deny them, pocket it & forget about them, or chuck them in the garbage or w/e...... 

[BrooklynBus]

No one ever expects all O/D surveys to be returned. It is normal for them to be thrown away. A 25% return rate is considered excellent. The average return rate is about 18%. 13% or less is considered poor. You just use other data to extrapolate how many trips each returned card represents. I don't think the MTA has done one in over 20 years. It is just irresponsible to use traffic counts to change routes. You are planning blindly.

[B35 via Church]

No one ever expects all O/D surveys to be returned. It is normal for them to be thrown away. A 25% return rate is considered excellent. The average return rate is about 18%. 13% or less is considered poor. You just use other data to extrapolate how many trips each returned card represents. I don't think the MTA has done one in over 20 years. It is just irresponsible to use traffic counts to change routes. You are planning blindly.

Of course every survey won't be returned.... Hell, I'll go one further & say every rider in our system won't even receive one, for them to be filled out by every rider (they really only hand em out at major stations {and in the peak direction at that], and the "intermediate" stations that have heavy usage at times [same deal, peak direction].... People that use the much lesser used stations, forget it... If you work 2nd or 3rd shift, forget it... If your commute only consists of the bus, forget it)..... But yeah, I was only presenting the best case scenario in saying that......

 

As far as the MTA's methods, I wouldn't even call it "planning".... It's trial & error, is what it is.

(Then again, I really shouldn't even call it that - since whatever "errors" are seldom reverted back, or otherwise changed [for the better])

[BrooklynBus]

Of course every survey won't be returned.... Hell, I'll go one further & say every rider in our system won't even receive one, for them to be filled out by every rider (they really only hand em out at major stations {and in the peak direction at that], and the "intermediate" stations that have heavy usage at times [same deal, peak direction].... People that use the much lesser used stations, forget it... If you work 2nd or 3rd shift, forget it... If your commute only consists of the bus, forget it)..... But yeah, I was only presenting the best case scenario in saying that......

 

As far as the MTA's methods, I wouldn't even call it "planning".... It's trial & error, is what it is.

(Then again, I really shouldn't even call it that - since whatever "errors" are seldom reverted back, or otherwise changed [for the better])

I got even one better for you. I just remembered it was about ten years ago when I was riding the B49, and the MTA was handing out O/D surveys. I never found out why. Perhaps they were thinking of cutting back the B49 in anticipation of SBS back then. What I remember was that the surveyors weren't even instructed in proper survey techniques. Some of the passengers were so thrilled by receiving a survey, about three of them asked for extra surveys to give to their friends. One of the surveyors was so eager to comply, he gave the woman 12 extra surveys to distribute to all of her friends! That's the type of planning they do and some get angry when I criticize their techniques.

[BrooklynIRT]

FTR, Never said anything about it being a good (or bad) idea, I was only listing what has been brought up about the B49, as it pertains to the B44 & its moving/movement along Rogers......

 

You must not be too fond of the M5's routing in the Village then.....

I know about the M5's routing in the Village. (From the maps.) I mentioned it 1.5 year ago when I was talking about changing the B49 and the distance between NY and Rogers Aves. I think you said the M5 is an exception to the rule or something like that. Those posts are in the Brooklyn bus proposals thread; they are from August of 2012 I think (probably not July or September).

 

BrooklynBus would probably be the most concerned with the distance between the two parallel roads.

[B35 via Church]

I know about the M5's routing in the Village. (From the maps.) I mentioned it 1.5 year ago when I was talking about changing the B49 and the distance between NY and Rogers Aves. I think you said the M5 is an exception to the rule or something like that. Those posts are in the Brooklyn bus proposals thread; they are from August of 2012 I think (probably not July or September).

 

BrooklynBus would probably be the most concerned with the distance between the two parallel roads.

I said not fond of, not that you're not familiar with it.....

 

And yeah I did say the M5 is an exception (due to the street layout in the area; too many narrow side streets b/w 6th & broadway).... Not contesting any of that..... It is what it is.....

 

I got even one better for you. I just remembered it was about ten years ago when I was riding the B49, and the MTA was handing out O/D surveys. I never found out why. Perhaps they were thinking of cutting back the B49 in anticipation of SBS back then. What I remember was that the surveyors weren't even instructed in proper survey techniques. Some of the passengers were so thrilled by receiving a survey, about three of them asked for extra surveys to give to their friends. One of the surveyors was so eager to comply, he gave the woman 12 extra surveys to distribute to all of her friends! That's the type of planning they do and some get angry when I criticize their techniques.

Lol.... You got me on that one; at the fact that they were even handing em out on the buses to begin with.....

 

But SMFH at handing out surveys like party flyers.....

[Acela Express]

has there been an announcement on schedule ajustments on the b44lcl.

Not sure if I even got around to answering this post, but yes.. 

Feb. 2nd will be the depot pick for Flatbush, and they've added 3 runs to the 44 local (there's currently 48; new pick will be 51). None of the other Flatbush lines were affected (e.g. service reduction).

 

I'm unaware of the new headways, or even short-turns at Fulton St., etc., so we'll have to wait for the new timetables.

[BreeddekalbL]

Not sure if I even got around to answering this post, but yes.. 

Feb. 2nd will be the depot pick for Flatbush, and they've added 3 runs to the 44 local (there's currently 48; new pick will be 51). None of the other Flatbush lines were affected (e.g. service reduction).

 

I'm unaware of the new headways, or even short-turns at Fulton St., etc., so we'll have to wait for the new timetables.

 

flatbush is having another "special" pick?

[BrooklynBus]

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/02/b44-select-bus-service-sbs-update/

[Vistausss]

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2014/02/b44-select-bus-service-sbs-update/

 

Well, the B44 SBS seems well used. I ve seen recent videos on YouTube of the B44 SBS at various times (my guesstimate is middays, but for sure evenings) and I see the B44 SBS being SRO. So it seems like people are walking the extra quarter mile anyway.

But I do agree that almost a mile of walking shouldn t be needed to reach a bus stop. There are some parts in my city that are quite a walk to the nearest bus stop (BRTSBS here) but none of them almost a mile. That s just insane and the should work on connections. Maybe they could lower the fare for transfers? Say, half the amount of the current SBS fare?

[BrooklynBus]

Well, the B44 SBS seems well used. I ve seen recent videos on YouTube of the B44 SBS at various times (my guesstimate is middays, but for sure evenings) and I see the B44 SBS being SRO. So it seems like people are walking the extra quarter mile anyway.

But I do agree that almost a mile of walking shouldn t be needed to reach a bus stop. There are some parts in my city that are quite a walk to the nearest bus stop (BRTSBS here) but none of them almost a mile. That s just insane and the should work on connections. Maybe they could lower the fare for transfers? Say, half the amount of the current SBS fare?

Transfers are free if you use no more than two buses or a bus and as many trains as you like. They need to make it a timed fare for no matter how much you ride like they have in Las Vegas.

 

The B44 SBS may be used well in teh central and northern parts of the route, but in the southern portion of Sheepshead Bay, the buses are empty. My friend was waiting this morning at Avenue Z for a south (west) bound B36. Seven empty B44s came within 20 minutes and only one very overcrowded B36. Not an efficient use of resources. Clearly some changes are in order.

[Mysterious2train]

I've never seen a crowded bus or barely any SRO ones outside PM Rush, but I could just be at the wrong place/time. I saw those posters about the SBS on the bus. The MTA is sure taking their sweet time putting them on all the buses. Which is probably a good thing. 

 

Basically, the poster goes like this:

 

"The B44 Limited has become the B44 SBS and runs on Rogers and Bedford Avs instead of New York Av. Former B44 Limited riders have two options:

 

1. Walk to Rogers Av

2. Take the B8/B35/B12/B43/B45/B65/B25 to Rogers/Bedford Av"

 

Going by that poster, you can apparently catch the Select Bus at Bergen St(?) and the B44 Local doesn't exist. Taking the B25 would basically be the same thing as taking the Local, so why would they not mention it? I know the MTA is trying to get people on the SBS, but can they at least go about it a little better?