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R179 Discussion Thread


East New York

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 6:34 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Speaking of old trains perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the incident on the (A) line years ago where the T/O pulled into Utica Avenue heading northbound ? Where the doors failed to open after he stopped. Because the rear four cars of the R46 consist, including the C/R, had uncoupled and were left back at Rockaway Avenue on the express tracks. That train was in passenger service which I know because my mom was on the section left behind. The investigation included a person who knew about a train that uncoupled at 145th and Lenox. That train was not in passenger service . It was a yard move and I know firsthand because I was on the end that got left behind. Be careful when you make these statements that sound definitive to others because some of us know better. Carry on.

There was an incident a long time ago with an R44 that stopped at Nostrand Ave. n/b.  When the doors failed to open the t/o looked toward the back, but couldn't see back there because it was rush hour and the passengers on the platform were up tight against the train waiting for the doors to open.  The t/o called the c/r on the Intercom and PA, but had no response.  Just when he was about to go back to investigate, some passenger came running up and said he only had 2 cars.  To make the situation even weirder, the 6 cars left behind did not go into emergency. Neither did his 2.  This was when the R44's had drawbars connecting 2 cars, rather than 4. This was before the GOH program.

There was another one on the midnight, an 8 car R44 transfer from 207YD to Pitkin Yd.  Somewhere along the way in Brooklyn, a pull apart mid train at a draw bar.  Fortunately t/o's section went into emergency and he discovered the pull apart as he was doing his investigation.  I forget if this one was pre or post GOH.

 

Edited by Bill from Maspeth
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11 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Maybe.  How long ago approx.?  I'm not going to say that it never happened.

I don't remember exactly when it was, but I think it was prior to the delivery of (at least most of) the R179s.

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 8:32 PM, R10 2952 said:

I was waiting for someone to bring this up; some of the others on here act like the R179 situation was a total shocker.  To me it wasn't.  Not after all the incidents I heard about that happened in the late '70s and early '80s- traction motors falling out of their mounts, exploding controllers, R12/14/15 consists so shot that they didn't have enough power to make it up the grades in the Joralemon and Clark tubes, and so on.  

Not sure why people take cleanliness and error-free operation for granted these days, but I suspect it has something to do with the 24-hour news cycle, social media and instant gratification.  21st-century society in a nutshell i guess.

Personally, I think the MTA's primary motivation for pulling the R179s and keeping them out of service for so long probably has something to do with litigation/liability/lawyers- another thing in the present day that we have way too much of.

A lot of the posters here were not yet alive in the 80's, before the GOH program, to see how bad it was.  In the IRT, at least when the R62's arrived in 1984, the real bad old cars were retired: the R12/14/15 and the real basket cases of the R17/21/22.  But the IRT still had lots of smoke and fires coming out of the old cars, even the R26/28/29/33/36's.

The B Division, where I was a t/o, had their problems too, believe me.  Did I have "fun".  One day operating R32  #3904 on the D, whenever I put the controller into coast, the train would buck like a wild bull.  I cut out the dynamic brakes, and it got a little better, but not much.  Apparently the problem car was in one of the other cars.  I picked up a car inspector at 125.  Obviously we had to cut the dynamic brakes back in.  I told him to hold on when I put the controller in coast.  He didn't believe me and almost bashed his head into the storm door glass!  I did the same thing a few more times, he couldn't believe what went on with this , I know that applied to me too.  So out of service at 59, and into the middle at 30/8 and back to CCYD.

Another time when the Manny B was closed.  I was working the D from 57/7 to Br. Beach. Slow train.  My first 2 cars were 4504/05.  Train was really slow as soon as I left 57/7.  Going up the hill between 34th and 28th, I barely made it. I also knew I would not make it up the grade of the MannyB.  I started smelling smoke.  I put my head out and flames were shooting out of the resistor grids in the second car.  I limped into 14th St., "discharged" and IRT people who were stationed at 14th St. (Lex Line) came over. The car inspector verified the grids were burnt out, and we cut out the motor.  Many passengers refused to get off as the RCI wanted the train discharged.  Command Center said to proceed, nobody ever pulled a cord because as far as I was concerned, I wasn't stopping till Brighton Beach.....But......Between 7th Ave. and Prospect Park, I smelled more smoke.  Now MY car was doing the same thing as the second car was doing previously.  This train was haunted!  We get to Prospect Park and stopped.  After cutting out the motors in my car, Command told us to wait for police to get the rest of them off.  The Car Inspector went toward the back of the train, I locked my self in the cab after I told the passengers that they had a choice (over the PA system), that they could get off for me, or get off for the cops.  They stood their ground!  When the cops came, they still refused till they were threatened with arrest.  I had a few people who banged on my cab window from the outside because THEY LOST! 

Another one: 4736/37, the 2 cars at Transit Tech.  One of them had smoke issuing somewhere north of 125, I cut out the motor.  This was before a smoking train would automatically be taken out of service.  As long as the smoke subsided, the train remained in service.  When I passed another train at 135 he called me on the radio and told me I had the mate smoking.  He gave me the car #.  I told Command.  They told me to discharge, change ends, cut out the motor and hold at 135 spur.  But there already was an R44 A train at 125 on the local track also smoking and the station was full of smoke.  I cut out the motor and got out of there ASAP.  Passengers left the train because the train & station was full of smoke.

Finally on a Friday morning in 1982.  I was working midnights on the D.  Last 1/2 trip southbound, the first train of the morning to Brighton Beach. Around 5:40 AM at Bedford Park.  I only worked this job on Fridays as the regular guy was off on Friday/Saturday. Took a point of power for rolling test (no pull back, brakes releasing, and no hand brakes hopefully).  I saw a big flash in the cab, came from behind me.  Called the RCI.  He was in the tower and saw the flash and actually was on his way out before I called him.  He asked if I was OK.  I was stunned.  He cut out the motors.  The "am_meter", which shows car voltage if the motors in that car was alive was charred black.  When I moved again, it didn't look right from the outside.  I had the c/r open up the doors again.  I left the reverser in.  Turns out both headlights were burnt out and charred black.  I told the TD that I couldn't take a train with no headlights.  Pissed as he was he took me off, and had a switchman take the train to the yard and told me to deadhead.  Of course I went home because I would be done for the day once I got to Brighton and in those days we didn't sign out.  When I got to back to work that night, I was told that the 600 volts got mixed into the 32 volt battery circuits.  In other words, 4504 became a HI-V on me!  That car spent over a month in CIYD Main Shop being repaired and re-wired. Internally the car fried. 4505 was visible from McDonald Ave.

So no matter how bad the R179's may be, they won't be allowed to get as bad as these cars in the stories I just told.  They will not be "Returned to Sender".  They will be made to work because we will not go back to the 1970's and 1980's.

 

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4 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

A lot of the posters here were not yet alive in the 80's, before the GOH program, to see how bad it was.  In the IRT, at least when the R62's arrived in 1984, the real bad old cars were retired: the R12/14/15 and the real basket cases of the R17/21/22.  But the IRT still had lots of smoke and fires coming out of the old cars, even the R26/28/29/33/36's.

...


So no matter how bad the R179's may be, they won't be allowed to get as bad as these cars in the stories I just told.  They will not be "Returned to Sender".  They will be made to work because we will not go back to the 1970's and 1980's.

 

I was around for them in the 80s. I remember riding in some of these cars. And I do remember times when “they didn’t work,” especially on the numbered lines, because the eastern Bronx was firmly IRT territory (had the Second System or MTA 1968 plan happened, that might not have been so by the 1980s). When I saw that pilot train of R62s for the first time running on the White Plains Road el, it was quite a shock. Its big red (2) up front next to the door instead of over it was something I’d only seen on letter trains. We did often take the (D) with its R32, R40m and R42 trains (which would be replaced by R68s around 1988), which looked to be in somewhat better shape, probably because they were newer trains than what ran on the (2)(5) and (6), as well as the (1) and (4) over in the western Bronx. Unfortunately, the grass wasn’t much better in the B-Division; these instances you posted are proof. Though they got large front roll signs and air-conditioned cars before the A-Division did.

On 8/3/2020 at 12:12 AM, R10 2952 said:

Yeah that actually remained a problem right up until the Redbirds retired in 2003; after GOH, they started wearing down again mechanically.  To paraphrase what was said by another member here several years ago, it was the result of multiple circuit failures within the door control system giving false positives- the end result was definitely shitty. 

Now that I think of it, most of the Redbirds were in bad shape already in the late '90s.  Either mechanical wrecks or rusting through.  Not to mention all the cars with busted A/C, much more than the R32s.

Yep, those Redbirds were Rustbirds and Hotbirds in the summer. I remember them well throughout my high school years, summers home from college and the two years between the end of college and the start of grad school (1992-2002). I couldn’t wait for the R142s to get their bugs worked out and replace the Redbirds and I cursed every time they got pulled from service (some folks on SubTalk were overjoyed every time the R142s and/or R142As got sidelined). Of course it was different because they R142s and 142As are a very different generation of rail cars versus the late 1950s/early 1960s cars they replaced, whereas the R179s aren’t the same generation of cars as the R143s and R160s, so they aren’t very different. 

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Most of my redbird rides that I remember were in the late 90s and early 2000s, they wasn't really that bad TBH. I enjoyed riding the cars. Then again most of these rides were on the (2) which had the R33ML assigned to it which was the best car class of the IRT redbird batch. Most of those stuck around in the system after retirement, mostly as rider cars in work train consists, and of course a couple of pairs was set aside for Transit Museum and used in the TOMC consists.

 

I know the R36WF had it bad with the rusting though.

 

@T to Dyre Avenue it seems you bring up sub talk posters being happy the 142/142A got sidelined back then every chance you get like you have PTSD over it or something haha. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens in the community whenever the R179 get sidelined and the R32/42 ends up coming back in the masses. I kinda feel the same way you did about Redbird/142s but with the R32 and R179, hopefully the 32s are retired for good once the 179s come back.

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10 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Most of my redbird rides that I remember were in the late 90s and early 2000s, they wasn't really that bad TBH. I enjoyed riding the cars. Then again most of these rides were on the (2) which had the R33ML assigned to it which was the best car class of the IRT redbird batch. Most of those stuck around in the system after retirement, mostly as rider cars in work train consists, and of course a couple of pairs was set aside for Transit Museum and used in the TOMC consists.

 

I know the R36WF had it bad with the rusting though.

 

@T to Dyre Avenue it seems you bring up sub talk posters being happy the 142/142A got sidelined back then every chance you get like you have PTSD over it or something haha. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens in the community whenever the R179 get sidelined and the R32/42 ends up coming back in the masses. I kinda feel the same way you did about Redbird/142s but with the R32 and R179, hopefully the 32s are retired for good once the 179s come back.

 

the worst redbirds were the R26/28 and R36WF (Mainly the GE ones) due to rot

A good portion of R33ML's also had rot, The ones on the (4) on its last days had body rot, 8843 was the worst one and that came from the (2)(5) lines

 

That last part, R32's aren't gonna retire for good, That's when the R211's come in. They'll just be on the sideline until they need a train, They don't trust the R179's fully even if they go back into service. too many defects were fount on the R179's.

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37 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

 

the worst redbirds were the R26/28 and R36WF (Mainly the GE ones) due to rot

A good portion of R33ML's also had rot, The ones on the (4) on its last days had body rot, 8843 was the worst one and that came from the (2)(5) lines

 

That last part, R32's aren't gonna retire for good, That's when the R211's come in. They'll just be on the sideline until they need a train, They don't trust the R179's fully even if they go back into service. too many defects were fount on the R179's.

Your second point, yeah, so? I did not say the 33s didn't have rust problems at all, just said they fared the best out of all the Redbird car classes. 

 

 

And to your last point, how do you know, source?

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20 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Most of my redbird rides that I remember were in the late 90s and early 2000s, they wasn't really that bad TBH. I enjoyed riding the cars. Then again most of these rides were on the (2) which had the R33ML assigned to it which was the best car class of the IRT redbird batch. Most of those stuck around in the system after retirement, mostly as rider cars in work train consists, and of course a couple of pairs was set aside for Transit Museum and used in the TOMC consists.

I know the R36WF had it bad with the rusting though.

10 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

the worst redbirds were the R26/28 and R36WF (Mainly the GE ones) due to rot

A good portion of R33ML's also had rot, The ones on the (4) on its last days had body rot, 8843 was the worst one and that came from the (2)(5) lines

I liked the Redbirds as a kid, but by 2000 most of them really were trash; towards the end, the only ones that seemed to be holding together were the R36MLs, but there were only 34 of them anyway.  The Jerome R33s and the Westchester R29s, on the other hand....

Certainly it wasn't as bad as the '80s, but they were definitely shitty by '90s standards.

 

@Bill from Maspeth Were the Westinghouse R16s also problem cars, or was it just the GEs?

Edited by R10 2952
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35 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

I liked the Redbirds as a kid, but by 2000 most of them really were trash; towards the end, the only ones that seemed to be holding together were the R36MLs, but there were only 34 of them anyway.  The Jerome R33s and the Westchester R29s, on the other hand....

Certainly it wasn't as bad as the '80s, but they were definitely shitty by '90s standards.

 

@Bill from Maspeth Were the Westinghouse R16s also problem cars, or was it just the GEs?

I never operated a GE R16 on the road, they were all retired,  I did move one in ENYD on a switching move.

Even though I never had a burn up with an R16, I had so many slow trains/dead motors.  No communication with the conductors due to no PA's.  The c/r's were not carrying radios then.  Doors had a habit of unlocking but not opening in individual cars at stations.  The original unmodified door engines were long before my time.

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39 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

I never operated a GE R16 on the road, they were all retired,  I did move one in ENYD on a switching move.

Even though I never had a burn up with an R16, I had so many slow trains/dead motors.  No communication with the conductors due to no PA's.  The c/r's were not carrying radios then.  Doors had a habit of unlocking but not opening in individual cars at stations.  The original unmodified door engines were long before my time.

Was it the (brownM) they were on towards the end? I can imagine they must've been a real pain in the neck to operate on the Williamsburg and Montague grades.

Edited by R10 2952
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On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 2:34 AM, trainfan22 said:

Most of my redbird rides that I remember were in the late 90s and early 2000s, they wasn't really that bad TBH. I enjoyed riding the cars. Then again most of these rides were on the (2) which had the R33ML assigned to it which was the best car class of the IRT redbird batch. Most of those stuck around in the system after retirement, mostly as rider cars in work train consists, and of course a couple of pairs was set aside for Transit Museum and used in the TOMC consists.

 

I know the R36WF had it bad with the rusting though.

 

@T to Dyre Avenue it seems you bring up sub talk posters being happy the 142/142A got sidelined back then every chance you get like you have PTSD over it or something haha. I wouldn't be surprised if that still happens in the community whenever the R179 get sidelined and the R32/42 ends up coming back in the masses. I kinda feel the same way you did about Redbird/142s but with the R32 and R179, hopefully the 32s are retired for good once the 179s come back.

Lol, maybe. I didn't realize I'd been bringing it up that much. I just remember a lot people in the railfan community who were that unhappy about the retirement of the Redbirds citing loss of the railfan window due to the R142/R142As' full-width cabs. If you'll recall from the R32 Retirement thread, there's more than a few folks who will be sad to see them be withdrawn from service.

And yes, I'll agree the R33 ML cars were the best in the Redbird fleet, except for some reason the few on the (4). Though before ~1994, the (2) was mostly R26/28/29 salad trains and the (5) had most of the R33s. In 1994, they switched and that made sense because the (2) was (and is) a primary, 24/7 line. But when more R142s began to be accepted, the R33s were cascaded back over to the (5), and most of the R26/28/29 cars were headed for Davy Jones' locker.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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55 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

How many r160's are currently running on the A? It seems that they are dominating the A during off peak hours.

Why do so many people on this site keep asking this same question all the time:  "How many R160's are on the A Line"?  And the answer keeps on being given:  the number varies day to day having to do with the number of R46's Pitkin/207 has available day to day.  The balance is made up of R160's from Jamaica, some of which has to go back on a day by day basis due to inspection and barn requests.  THE ANSWER IS 15-17 r160's DAILY.  It is not possible to give the answer on a daily basis, unless someone here is willing to sit at B'way/Nassau or Chambers St. during the rush, book north and south motors, then add them up to report to us. 

subwaycommuter1983:  I am not singling you out for asking this question.

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6 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Why do so many people on this site keep asking this same question all the time:  "How many R160's are on the A Line"?  And the answer keeps on being given:  the number varies day to day having to do with the number of R46's Pitkin/207 has available day to day.  The balance is made up of R160's from Jamaica, some of which has to go back on a day by day basis due to inspection and barn requests.  THE ANSWER IS 15-17 r160's DAILY.  It is not possible to give the answer on a daily basis, unless someone here is willing to sit at B'way/Nassau or Chambers St. during the rush, book north and south motors, then add them up to report to us. 

subwaycommuter1983:  I am not singling you out for asking this question.

I know. I was asking because I have been seeing more r160's than r46's and since ridership has been gradually increasing I was wondering if the MTA added more trains on the A, which right now has better headways than it had a month ago. In other words, the number of temporary r160's on the A is much higher than the original 10 car r179's.

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Two (J) trains got taken OOS due to mechanical problems this afternoon, no idea what equipment it was (Saw it on NYCT twitter)

 

Also seen an 8 car R160 NIS passing though Marcy Ave Manhattan bound yesterday in the middle of rush hour! I assume it was going to CI Overhaul shop to get some kind of work done, just odd to see such a move done in the middle of rush hour.

Edited by trainfan22
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29 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I know. I was asking because I have been seeing more r160's than r46's and since ridership has been gradually increasing I was wondering if the MTA added more trains on the A, which right now has better headways than it had a month ago. In other words, the number of temporary r160's on the A is much higher than the original 10 car r179's.

The number of temporary R160s IS higher than the original R179s since some of the (A)’s R46s had to be shifted to (C) service to backfill for the R179s that are out and R32s are not an option. Even with the R46 shift, the full weekday (C) schedule can’t be filled and the spare factor is significantly reduced, so the (C) runs every 12 minutes (at best) during rush hours. The only saving grace is the (F) train G.O. That has (F) service frequency cut in half

Edited by darkstar8983
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2 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Two (J) trains got taken OOS due to mechanical problems this afternoon, no idea what equipment it was (Saw it on NYCT twitter)

 

Also seen an 8 car R160 NIS passing though Marcy Ave Manhattan bound yesterday in the middle of rush hour! I assume it was going to CI Overhaul shop to get some kind of work done, just odd to see such a move done in the middle of rush hour.

Which one is it R160, R143, or R32 because I already know R179 is out of service still because I'm not sure?

Edited by Rigojefte Galo
About the subway cars
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16 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I know. I was asking because I have been seeing more r160's than r46's and since ridership has been gradually increasing I was wondering if the MTA added more trains on the A, which right now has better headways than it had a month ago. In other words, the number of temporary r160's on the A is much higher than the original 10 car r179's.

The A line has been back to regular schedule for several weeks now. 

Just because you've been seeing more R160's on the A doesn't mean more there are more on the line since no doubt you haven't been out there long enough to book every train on the line.  Or have you?  There are no assigned R160 slots, and there are no assigned R46 slots.  As you know it takes a Far Rock train longer to make a round trip than it takes a Lefferts train to make a round trip.  Sometimes at 207 it is necessary for a train from Lefferts to leave as a train to Far Rock and vice versa.  You could be at a station for 45 minutes and see a bunch of R46's and surmise that there are fewer R160's (or more) yet the equipment happens to be running consecutively or almost consecutively.   

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