M-9 Discussion

[Nitro]

On 8/18/2023 at 6:37 PM, trainfan22 said:

I remember an MTA document linked on here a while back saying that Metro North used the funds for M3 replacements to order the replacements for the P32DM locomotives. Metro North probably sees replacing the P32s as the more pressing need, spare parts are scarce and those engines are the sole provider of Hudson line diesel service.

 

 

M3s share serving the Hudson and Harlem lines with the M7s, if the Metro North M3s start to fall apart they could just limit them to rush hour only like NJT does with the NEC Arrows.

The Jersey Arrows are Stainless steel and they performed well for over 40 years with no problems to this date. Most of it has to do with the lack of nearby maintenance facilities on the NEC and the Main NJT facility's maintenance care.

[trainfan22]

49 minutes ago, Nitro said:

The Jersey Arrows are Stainless steel and they performed well for over 40 years with no problems to this date. Most of it has to do with the lack of nearby maintenance facilities on the NEC and the Main NJT facility's maintenance care.

The Arrows have an MDBF of 10,000.. I think Morrsville Yard in Pennsylvania has an maintenance shop in addition to MMC. I like the Arrows but the harsh reality is they are unreliable in 2023. 

 

 

 

[xD4nn]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

The Jersey Arrows are Stainless steel and they performed well for over 40 years with no problems to this date. Most of it has to do with the lack of nearby maintenance facilities on the NEC and the Main NJT facility's maintenance care.

The arrows are the worst-performing stock NJT currently has...

[Lex]

59 minutes ago, xD4nn said:

The arrows are the worst-performing stock NJT currently has...

Given how old they are, that's no surprise.

[Nitro]

11 hours ago, xD4nn said:

The arrows are the worst-performing stock NJT currently has...

Thats some bullshit. The worst of NJTs fleet are the PL42ACs. It is so bad that almost all of them are broken and have bugs in their software. Almost all of them are going to be phased out early by the new ALP-45DP locomotives in the last 9 years for them with only 10 PL42ACs remaining in service. I wonder which division they will go. I know it's definitely not going to be the Southern Division/Pennsy because the Raritan line doesn't want them. Most likely it’ll stay with the Main, Bergen County, & Pascack Valley Lines for a while.

[Nitro]

12 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

The Arrows have an MDBF of 10,000.. I think Morrsville Yard in Pennsylvania has an maintenance shop in addition to MMC. I like the Arrows but the harsh reality is they are unreliable in 2023. 

 

 

 

No it's because of the quality that they were made from. No railcar is perfect though the older ones are more reliable than their counterparts due to the metals they were made from. You could request a FOIA document of every railcars's specification including the body shell. We are only going off of whatever information Wikipedia could thankfully give us.

[Nitro]

11 hours ago, xD4nn said:

The arrows are the worst-performing stock NJT currently has...

Explain the M7s. All of them are easily flammable and the most unreliable fleet that Long Island & the Metro North Railroad has had in the past two decades. Railcars that aren't even built from stainless steel just some LAHT Carbon Steel that the TA used for the New Techs. The MTA phased that metal out along time ago after the order of the R30s and the Redbirds then went back to it.

[Railfanner Jake]

9127-9128 in service as of this week. All 9120s finally completed. Awaiting service entry are the following pairs: 
9013-9014 (nearly 5 1/2 years on property), 9015-9016 (has not seen service since sometime in Mid 2020), 9093-9094,9095-9096, 9173-9174, 9175-9176, 9183-9184, 9189-9190, 9193-9194, 9195-9196 9197-9198, 9199-9200, 9201-9202. 26 cars (13 Pairs)

[Railfanner Jake]

Via this months CPOC meeting, The last 26 cars to be accepted are pushed back to May 2024. The original deadline was end of the year. Not sure if anymore are being accepted this year as a result. 176 cars are currently in service. Any updates will be posted subject to change of course. 

[Railfanner Jake]

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/lirr-train-delay-m3-hd3aguzf Yeah, not getting any better as predicted. May 2024 deadline still sits. One more pair to be accepted for the year.... It's been a decade already since the reward... On the other side of things, the number of M9As predicted to be needed as part of the 20 year plan has gone up to as much as 340 units. Alot more than the base 160.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Railfanner Jake

[danielhg121]

2 hours ago, Railfanner Jake said:

https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/lirr-train-delay-m3-hd3aguzf Yeah, not getting any better as predicted. May 2024 deadline still sits. One more pair to be accepted for the year.... It's been a decade already since the reward... On the other side of things, the number of M9As predicted to be needed as part of the 20 year plan has gone up to as much as 340 units. Alot more than the base 160.

Mind quoting the article? Some of us can’t get past the paywall. 
 

maybe the increase in M9A’s is due to Metro-North tacking onto the order. I heard they weren’t going to participate, then they were going to but based on the 20-year needs assessment, I’m pretty sure they will.

[Railfanner Jake]

2 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

Mind quoting the article? Some of us can’t get past the paywall. 
 

maybe the increase in M9A’s is due to Metro-North tacking onto the order. I heard they weren’t going to participate, then they were going to but based on the 20-year needs assessment, I’m pretty sure they will.

Sure thing, The 340 cars BTW are listed strictly under LIRRs section. Metro North should be joining the order though 

 

LIRR's new train cars delayed again; shortage contributing to frustrations

Commuters call them 'the unicorns'

 

Four years after the first M9 trains rolled out, the LIRR had hoped to have all the new trains in service, but acknowledges the last of them won’t be here until sometime in 2024. Newsday transportation reporter Alfonso A. Castillo reports

 

The remaining cars in the LIRR’s new electric fleet aren’t expected to arrive until May, eight months later than the railroad’s most recent projection and four years later than originally planned, MTA documents show.

The latest setback in the Long Island Rail Road’s $730 million procurement of 202 M9 train cars from Kawasaki Rail Car Inc. comes as the LIRR looks to address rider frustrations over crowded trains and the continued reliance on some cars that are nearly 40 years old.

MTA officials said the LIRR has 176 M9 cars in service, with another two undergoing testing and expected to join the fleet soon.

 

In May, an independent engineering consultant hired by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority predicted the last trains in the LIRR’s purchase wouldn’t arrive until December, three months later than the authority’s target of September. MTA officials, at the time, disputed the prediction and insisted the effort remained “on track.”

 

WHAT TO KNOW

The remaining cars in the LIRR's new fleet of M9 electric train cars aren't expected to arrive until May, eight months later than the railroad’s most recent projection and four years later than originally planned.

The rollout of the new cars, which are costing the LIRR more than $730 million, has been plagued by delays, many of which the LIRR has blamed on "workmanship issues" on part of the manufacturer, Kawasaki Rail Inc.

As of July, the LIRR had 172 M9 cars in service, out of the 202 ordered. The M9s are so rare among the fleet of 1,100 electric rail cars that some commuters have dubbed them "the unicorns."

But in a report given last month to the MTA Board’s Capital Construction Committee, the LIRR acknowledged “the acceptance of the remaining cars has slipped to 2024.”

 

The report gives a new forecast of May for the arrival of the remaining cars, which the MTA, in 2018, said would be in place by the end of 2020.

 

Asked for an explanation for the latest delays, MTA spokesperson Joana Flores, in a statement, pointed to “limited manufacturer options,” parts shortages, and “quality assurance issues.”

 

‘Unicorn’ trains a ‘nice treat,’ riders say

The rollout of the new cars has been plagued by delays, many of which the LIRR has blamed on Kawasaki. Since the first cars began arriving about four years ago, the LIRR has regularly had to send them back to the manufacturer to address what it called “workmanship issues” resulting in test failures, including faulty wiring, incorrect installation of vestibule flooring and problems with bathroom doors.

 

“We have a red line when it comes to accepting quality in new cars below what Long Islanders have a right to expect, and have told Kawasaki it’s accountable for delays that will lead to a small percentage of M9 cars being shipped in 2024, and for expediting delivering when their issues are resolved,” Flores said.

 

Kawasaki officials did not respond to requests for comment. The LIRR awarded Kawasaki the contract for its new cars in 2013, with the goal of bolstering its fleet in time for the opening of Grand Central Madison.

The M9 trains, recognizable by their LED lights, electrical outlets at every row of seats, and push-button doors, remain scarce among the railroad’s overall fleet of about 1,100 electric cars, the majority of which are about 20 years old. The sight of an M9 arriving at a station is so rare that some commuters have dubbed the new trains the “unicorns” of the LIRR system.

 

With the fleet stretched thin, and the railroad adding nearly 300 trains to its schedule earlier this year with the opening of Grand Central Madison, the LIRR has turned to its 1980s-era M3 trains to make up the difference. The cars had been mothballed for nearly three years before being reintroduced into the fleet in 2022.

 

“Those older trains are rusty, no phone plugs. We need to remove those completely,” Vick Artis, 27, said Wednesday at the Mineola station just before boarding his train, which was not an M9. Artis said he only catches the new trains “once in blue moon.”

Merillon Avenue station commuter Kevin Collins said of the “hundreds of times” he’s taken the train in recent years, he’s been on an M9 “maybe 10 times.”

 

“It’s a very nice treat. It’s like, ‘Is this the Long Island Rail Road, or am I over in Europe or someplace where they take care of their customers?’ ” said Collins, 68.

He rides the vintage-era M3 trains “all the time.”

 

“It gets you there, but it’s not a smooth ride. And it’s not worth what we’re paying for,” added Collins, a college professor.

 

‘Extreme frustration’ for rider rep

The latest delay has made for “extreme frustration” for Gerard Bringmann, chairman of the LIRR Commuter Council, who believes railroad riders “need every car we can get.”

 

“Every time we get an M9, hopefully we can take one of the worst M3s out of service, or better yet, add to the [fleet],” said Bringmann, a nonvoting member of the MTA Board.

 

To provide all the extra service that came with the launch of Grand Central Madison, the railroad has been operating some trains with fewer cars than usual, at times making for what riders say are crowded onboard conditions — a problem that could be addressed with the remaining M9 cars.

“We get a set of those and we can make an eight-car train a 10-car train,” Bringmann said.

 

Flores said the delay in the arrival of the last of the M9 would not have any impact on service. But LIRR interim president Catherine Rinaldi, asked in February whether the delayed arrivals of the M9s were compounding the capacity problems that arose after the opening of Grand Central Madison, acknowledged that “every car helps.”

 

Even before the last of the M9s arrive, the LIRR has already fallen behind on its next fleet of train cars, known as the M9A. When it first announced plans for the cars in 2016, the railroad said it expected to have them in place for the opening of Grand Central Madison — then predicted to happen in 2021. But the LIRR has yet to award the contract for the new cars, which railroad officials have said would allow them to finally retire the M3s.

 

The MTA has said the delays are due to changes in market and supply chain conditions, and issues related to COVID-19

[danielhg121]

16 minutes ago, Railfanner Jake said:

Even before the last of the M9s arrive, the LIRR has already fallen behind on its next fleet of train cars, known as the M9A. When it first announced plans for the cars in 2016, the railroad said it expected to have them in place for the opening of Grand Central Madison — then predicted to happen in 2021. But the LIRR has yet to award the contract for the new cars, which railroad officials have said would allow them to finally retire the M3s.

 

The MTA has said the delays are due to changes in market and supply chain conditions, and issues related to COVID-19

Kawasaki must be absolutely swamped with the R211A/T/S. I would like them to choose someone else for the M9A's but there's such limited options to choose from and going with somebody from the outside may be even worse as they'll have to play catch-up. Hopefully, Kawasaki gets into the swing of things. 

[Railfanner Jake]

2 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

Kawasaki must be absolutely swamped with the R211A/T/S. I would like them to choose someone else for the M9A's but there's such limited options to choose from and going with somebody from the outside may be even worse as they'll have to play catch-up. Hopefully, Kawasaki gets into the swing of things. 

Plus whatever is left of the option M8s and PA5 refurbishments/new builds. Very tough field since Alstom is the only other pre qualified manufacturer. Idk who else could take the job and if Alstom were to do it, would they base it off their own design, the Metropolitan or something from the now owned Bombardier lines like the MOVIA ? Tough spot to call....

[Lawrence St]

i think 9197's body is at Kawasaki in Yonkers.

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Spotted 9200 at the Kawasaki plant at Yonkers earlier today. I also saw a few solo M9 cars sitting around... they're so new, they don't even have the blue and yellow stripes yet.

[Railfanner Jake]

9193-9194 has entered service. Currently a center unit of an 8 car set on the Atlantic shuttle

[Railfanner Jake]

9175-9176 in service, leading west/trailing east

[Railfanner Jake]

9095-9096 finally in service. Leading west on an 8 car set. Last 9090 series pair awaiting is 9093-9094

[QM1to6Ave]

16 hours ago, Railfanner Jake said:

9095-9096 finally in service. Leading west on an 8 car set. Last 9090 series pair awaiting is 9093-9094

Finally!

[Railfanner Jake]

9163-9164 finally in service as of this morning, Leading motor West in a six car set. WH Train #1715 to Penn. 20 cars (10 pairs) remain. 

[Cait Sith]

Spotted 9199-9200 testing with 9035-9036 and two other cars at Penn.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Cait Sith

[Railfanner Jake]

Happy New Year, 9199-9200 has entered service as the west leading motor this morning on 6217 to Grand Central 🎊

Edited January 1 by Railfanner Jake

[Railfanner Jake]

9173-9174 finally in service this morning after a good year or so of testing and getting stuff worked out, currently in an 8 car set. All 9170s are completed at this time. 16 cars remain 

[Railfanner Jake]

9195-9196 delivered on Friday. 9197-9198 should probably follow shortly