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LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread


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On 3/2/2023 at 8:04 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, but the complaints are coming from weekday commuters.  Those are the primary riders. 

 

The main complaint i've hear from some riders (both on my line and in my office) is that they don't benefit from the new timetables, and therefore nobody should be allowed to benefit from them.

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14 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

The main complaint i've hear from some riders (both on my line and in my office) is that they don't benefit from the new timetables, and therefore nobody should be allowed to benefit from them.

Of course you would paint it that way. There will always be entitled riders that only think of themselves, but let's not make it sound like the (MTA) did a good job here and a few people are just complaining just because, which is your usual narrative. When you have cars leaving Grand Central with ONE person in them, and cars that are overcapacity leaving Penn Station, it is clear that changes are needed to balance things out. They also royally screwed over Atlantic Terminal riders.  The transfers in general are poorly timed (this is the case at several stations) and force people to run around the terminal (specifically the Jamaica station) or face a longer commute that may make them late to work through no fault of their own. What it comes down to is they spent a lot of money on GCM and they want to make it appear that it is a success. No one wants to spent billions of dollars on a shiny new terminal that is barely used. 

It could be that demand was much higher for Grand Central pre-COVID, but the problem is ridership patterns have changed substantially in some cases as we move to a post-COVID environment and the (MTA) was given plenty of feedback before releasing these schedules, so it's not like they didn't know as they are trying to claim.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

...let's not make it sound like the (MTA) did a good job here and a few people are just complaining just because....

 

That is clearly not the case here.  I'm actually indifferent to Penn vs. GCM, so I benefit from less crowded trains. Yes, the subway connection from GCM takes longer, but the shorter subway ride compensates to the extent that the combination is a wash. Of course, that's only for me. Others don't have the same experience, and there are numerous obvious flaws in both the timetables and the operation.

 

Enough has been said about the gross imbalance of ridership that I don't ned to address it. Beyond that...

 

  • One of my coworkers tells me that at least one Atlantic shuttle train has been running with 12 cars, even though no more than 8 cars can open at Atlantic Terminal. That is a waste of capacity that would be better used almost anywhere else. Better to run the shuttle with 6- or 8-car trains on a 15-minute headway (preferably 10 minutes).

 

  • An important "behind the scenes" f***-up (as one conductor described it) is that the LIRR actually reduced running time for yard moves. If it takes 20 minutes to move a train from the yard to the station but they give only 15 minutes, then that train will always leave its first stop at least 5 minutes late and delay other trains in the process. All of this has downstream consequences, including holds that shouldn't be needed, missed connections, and angry riders.
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19 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

That is clearly not the case here.  I'm actually indifferent to Penn vs. GCM, so I benefit from less crowded trains. Yes, the subway connection from GCM takes longer, but the shorter subway ride compensates to the extent that the combination is a wash. Of course, that's only for me. Others don't have the same experience, and there are numerous obvious flaws in both the timetables and the operation.

 

Enough has been said about the gross imbalance of ridership that I don't ned to address it. Beyond that...

 

  • One of my coworkers tells me that at least one Atlantic shuttle train has been running with 12 cars, even though no more than 8 cars can open at Atlantic Terminal. That is a waste of capacity that would be better used almost anywhere else. Better to run the shuttle with 6- or 8-car trains on a 15-minute headway (preferably 10 minutes).

 

  • An important "behind the scenes" f***-up (as one conductor described it) is that the LIRR actually reduced running time for yard moves. If it takes 20 minutes to move a train from the yard to the station but they give only 15 minutes, then that train will always leave its first stop at least 5 minutes late and delay other trains in the process. All of this has downstream consequences, including holds that shouldn't be needed, missed connections, and angry riders.

These are the small things that make a big difference. They've actually been doing the same thing with the bus redesigns where they give the drivers less time to deadhead to start their trip. That was another reason why with the Staten Island Redesign, buses were starting late, and from what I have heard, this continues to be an issue at times, though not as bad as before. It's a really dumb move that likely doesn't save that much in the overall scheme of things, and as you said, leads to angry riders, some of whom they have lost permanently, as they turn to driving. When you make public transportation inconvenient, you lose even more in the long run. 

Now more than ever as riders have more flexibility in terms of when they start work and what days they work, this is not the time for the (MTA) to screw over commuters, and yet somehow, they managed to turn a good thing into a mess.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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11 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

One of my coworkers tells me that at least one Atlantic shuttle train has been running with 12 cars, even though no more than 8 cars can open at Atlantic Terminal. That is a waste of capacity that would be better used almost anywhere else. Better to run the shuttle with 6- or 8-car trains on a 15-minute headway (preferably 10 minutes).

This cannot happen. A 10 car train can just be shy of the switches just east of the station. They don't allow 12 cars in there. EVER. 12 cars would block the switches and restrict movement in and out of the terminal. A major railroad no-no. Max is 10 and that can only be on one of two tracks in Atlantic. 

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Of course you would paint it that way. There will always be entitled riders that only think of themselves, but let's not make it sound like the (MTA) did a good job here and a few people are just complaining just because, which is your usual narrative. When you have cars leaving Grand Central with ONE person in them, and cars that are overcapacity leaving Penn Station, it is clear that changes are needed to balance things out. They also royally screwed over Atlantic Terminal riders.  The transfers in general are poorly timed (this is the case at several stations) and force people to run around the terminal (specifically the Jamaica station) or face a longer commute that may make them late to work through no fault of their own. What it comes down to is they spent a lot of money on GCM and they want to make it appear that it is a success. No one wants to spent billions of dollars on a shiny new terminal that is barely used. 

It could be that demand was much higher for Grand Central pre-COVID, but the problem is ridership patterns have changed substantially in some cases as we move to a post-COVID environment and the (MTA) was given plenty of feedback before releasing these schedules, so it's not like they didn't know as they are trying to claim.

GCM ridership has been increasing...

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30 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

That is clearly not the case here.  I'm actually indifferent to Penn vs. GCM, so I benefit from less crowded trains. Yes, the subway connection from GCM takes longer, but the shorter subway ride compensates to the extent that the combination is a wash. Of course, that's only for me. Others don't have the same experience, and there are numerous obvious flaws in both the timetables and the operation.

 

Enough has been said about the gross imbalance of ridership that I don't ned to address it. Beyond that...

 

  • One of my coworkers tells me that at least one Atlantic shuttle train has been running with 12 cars, even though no more than 8 cars can open at Atlantic Terminal. That is a waste of capacity that would be better used almost anywhere else. Better to run the shuttle with 6- or 8-car trains on a 15-minute headway (preferably 10 minutes).

 

  • An important "behind the scenes" f***-up (as one conductor described it) is that the LIRR actually reduced running time for yard moves. If it takes 20 minutes to move a train from the yard to the station but they give only 15 minutes, then that train will always leave its first stop at least 5 minutes late and delay other trains in the process. All of this has downstream consequences, including holds that shouldn't be needed, missed connections, and angry riders.

Atlantic Terminal cannot fit 12 cars...

Edited by xD4nn
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20 minutes ago, xD4nn said:

GCM ridership has been increasing...

And? That still doesn't mean that you have the terminal over served while the majority of the ridership is at Penn Station. Makes no sense. I would certainly hope that it does, that is that GCM sees increasing patronage from LIRR riders, but unless there is some wild dash of new LIRR commuters flooding the station (unlikely given the fact that riders were clear in stating that the majority would still need Penn Station), you have to balance the service so that you mitigate the dangerous overcrowding at Penn and still have service that is attractive enough to use at GCM.

From a cost standpoint, they are not only losing money on the amount of empty trains serving GCM (railroad service is actually pretty costly to subsidize even though no one mentions this fact, as it is a commuter service that by nature sees lower turnover compared to the subway), but the conductors have been unable to collect tickets from the trains leaving Penn Station, so this must be addressed ASAP. Atlantic Terminal has to be fixed, as it too is seeing overcrowding, either to or from.

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31 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And? That still doesn't mean that you have the terminal over served while the majority of the ridership is at Penn Station. Makes no sense. I would certainly hope that it does, that is that GCM sees increasing patronage from LIRR riders, but unless there is some wild dash of new LIRR commuters flooding the station (unlikely given the fact that riders were clear in stating that the majority would still need Penn Station), you have to balance the service so that you mitigate the dangerous overcrowding at Penn and still have service that is attractive enough to use at GCM.

From a cost standpoint, they are not only losing money on the amount of empty trains serving GCM (railroad service is actually pretty costly to subsidize even though no one mentions this fact, as it is a commuter service that by nature sees lower turnover compared to the subway), but the conductors have been unable to collect tickets from the trains leaving Penn Station, so this must be addressed ASAP. Atlantic Terminal has to be fixed, as it too is seeing overcrowding, either to or from.

They are not losing money lol. If you look at AM rush hour, the ridership is close to the ridership for penn...

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If I was still working in & commuted via the LIRR to Mineola, it would've meant leaving the house about an hour and a half later.... But of course, it would've meant trekking from track 11/12, to track 7/8, thanks to the turning of Brooklyn service into scoot service....

As a former reverse peak rider, I can't pretend to feel any sort of sympathy for LIRR peak riders.... Same people that tend to thumb their noses down at reverse peak riders... I almost want to laugh at how much this entire LIRR clusterf**k apparently benefited reverse peak more than peak riders...

With the LIRR, there's long been a palpable contempt of sorts between peak riders & reverse peak riders.... Looks like new one's about to form - Penn riders vs GCT riders :lol::lol::lol:...

 

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36 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

If I was still working in & commuted via the LIRR to Mineola, it would've meant leaving the house about an hour and a half later.... But of course, it would've meant trekking from track 11/12, to track 7/8, thanks to the turning of Brooklyn service into scoot service....

As a former reverse peak rider, I can't pretend to feel any sort of sympathy for LIRR peak riders.... Same people that tend to thumb their noses down at reverse peak riders... I almost want to laugh at how much this entire LIRR clusterf**k apparently benefited reverse peak more than peak riders...

With the LIRR, there's long been a palpable contempt of sorts between peak riders & reverse peak riders.... Looks like new one's about to form - Penn riders vs GCT riders :lol::lol::lol:...

 

Peak riders always have more priority over reverse peak riders... Majority always wins.

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2 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

This cannot happen. A 10 car train can just be shy of the switches just east of the station. They don't allow 12 cars in there. EVER. 12 cars would block the switches and restrict movement in and out of the terminal. A major railroad no-no. Max is 10 and that can only be on one of two tracks in Atlantic. 

 

Even if my coworker was mistaken (she's only human, like the rest of us) and it was a 10-car train, it's still silly to run more than 8 into Atlantic. 

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1 hour ago, xD4nn said:

They are not losing money lol. If you look at AM rush hour, the ridership is close to the ridership for penn...

They are if the conductors can't collect tickets regularly due to overcrowding, which is happening currently on the trains going to Penn.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They are if the conductors can't collect tickets regularly due to overcrowding, which is happening currently on the trains going to Penn.

Who said that? Do you understand how they collect tickets during rush hour?

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22 minutes ago, xD4nn said:

Who said that? Do you understand how they collect tickets during rush hour?

I've been a railroad commuter for many years, probably longer than you've been around, so save your holier-than-thou attitude for someone else like you need to explain to me how tickets are collected. lol Are you serious with yourself? A number of LIRR commuters have posted that the trains are so crowded that they can't collect tickets, and I can assure you that all of those people aren't using monthly passes either where they just occasionally check them.  

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4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've been a railroad commuter for many years, probably longer than you've been around, so save your holier-than-thou attitude for someone else like you need to explain to me how tickets are collected. lol Are you serious with yourself? A number of LIRR commuters have posted that the trains are so crowded that they can't collect tickets, and I can assure you that all of those people aren't using monthly passes either where they just occasionally check them.  

I know multiple conductors and they have no problem collecting tickets.

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1 minute ago, xD4nn said:

I know multiple conductors and they have no problem collecting tickets.

That's nice that you know multiple conductors. Still has nothing to do with those who can't collect on the overcrowded trains.  Hell I've been on a number of trains where it wasn't crowded and I essentially got a free ride over the years.  They've been better on MNRR about collecting them, but depending on where you are going, it is totally possible to ride for free for several weeks at a time.

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23 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's nice that you know multiple conductors. Still has nothing to do with those who can't collect on the overcrowded trains.  Hell I've been on a number of trains where it wasn't crowded and I essentially got a free ride over the years.  They've been better on MNRR about collecting them, but depending on where you are going, it is totally possible to ride for free for several weeks at a time.

Man, you don't even know how anything works here at LIRR...

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29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

....Hell I've been on a number of trains where it wasn't crowded and I essentially got a free ride over the years.  They've been better on MNRR about collecting them, but depending on where you are going, it is totally possible to ride for free for several weeks at a time.

Before I started driving to work when I was in Mineola, man, it got to a point on those 2 trains out of Atlantic Terminal in the 5 am hour, c/r's stopped bothering to check anyone's tickets before the train got to Jamaica.... They would start checking them AFTER the train left Jamaica.... I never forget one time I showed my weekly to one of the c/r's, he gave me a nasty smirk, before saying "yeah, thanks" - as if I was some sort of nuisance by, you know, actually wanting to prove fare payment.... I would go WEEKS without pulling my weekly pass out of my bag before I actually got a c/r that recited anything close to a "tickets please" before we got to Jamaica on those morning trains.... Of course, on the Ronkonkoma train I would xfer to across the platform to get to Mineola to, those c/r's would start asking for tickets, basically the second the train pulled out of Jamaica.....

Pretty sure those c/r's on those scoot trains (which is what I'm going to call them from now on) b/w Atlantic Term. & Jamaica aren't pulling that shit anymore.

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1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

Before I started driving to work when I was in Mineola, man, it got to a point on those 2 trains out of Atlantic Terminal in the 5 am hour, c/r's stopped bothering to check anyone's tickets before the train got to Jamaica.... They would start checking them AFTER the train left Jamaica.... I never forget one time I showed my weekly to one of the c/r's, he gave me a nasty smirk, before saying "yeah, thanks" - as if I was some sort of nuisance by, you know, actually wanting to prove fare payment.... I would go WEEKS without pulling my weekly pass out of my bag before I actually got a c/r that recited anything close to a "tickets please" before we got to Jamaica on those morning trains.... Of course, on the Ronkonkoma train I would xfer to across the platform to get to Mineola to, those c/r's would start asking for tickets, basically the second the train pulled out of Jamaica.....

Pretty sure those c/r's on those scoot trains (which is what I'm going to call them from now on) b/w Atlantic Term. & Jamaica aren't pulling that shit anymore.

There was a time when I would ride MNRR to 125th St from GCT and I stopped even buying tickets because they would never check. Now with the LIRR which I have used over the years, I have generally been checked, but I've had a few times where I've rode for free, and this had nothing to do with any train being crowded either. Personally I find the Hudson Line to be ok, provided you are getting on or off where they check. There are a few stops where they still don't, or what some people do is if they get on at say Yankees-153rd or anywhere before Marble Hill, they just hide in the bathroom and then get off at Marble Hill. I've seen that a lot pre-COVID and at first I didn't realize what was going on, but then it all clicked when I kept seeing it.

I tend to take semi-express trains now whenever I do use MNRR, such as this morning, so if I get on in Riverdale or Spuyten Duyvil, they will usually check before we get to Harlem-125th. I get a CityTicket anyway, so it doesn't even matter. It's only good for the day, so I just activate it. My use is so minimal now that I'm lucky if I use the railroad a few times a month. lol

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