Sometimes farebeating is OK, says City Councilman Robert Jackson

[mark1447]

There's a time and a place for everything — even farebeating, in one City Councilman’s opinion.

 

Councilman Robert Jackson said he told his wife to duck under the turnstiles at the 181st St. station on the A line, which had a broken MetroCard machine, rather than walk to a staffed entrance at 184th St.

 

“I told her to go under,” Jackson said. “I would have gone under.

 

“Whoever goes to buy a MetroCard should be entitled to a free ride if the machines aren’t working, if there’s no token booth clerk there,” he added.

 

The MTA swiped back.

 

“Farebeating is a crime,” MTA spokesman Adam Lisberg said. “It’s wrong. It’s illegal, and it deprives the MTA of the money it needs to carry you on the subway.”

 

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/farebeating-city-councilman-robert-jackson-article-1.1083614#ixzz1vpLwYSGB

 

[Guest Lance]

You're not helping the cause here. Regardless of whatever you think or how far the next entrance is, Mr. Councilman, a broken turnstile doesn't give you free range to beat the fare. For starters, you've just become part of the problem. If the idea is to eliminate fare-beating, it doesn't help when you start advocating it. Especially because you're lazy. People will just read that as "broken turnstile = okay to fare-beat". Secondly, besides the lost revenue (which while minor, is still revenue), there's the possibility that the station agent has no idea about the broken turnstile in the first place. If you don't take that walk and alert the agent of the problem, it will probably remain unreported until someone actually decides to do so.

[overclocked]

What a load of BS if you ask me, and all it shows is that what kind of individuals are serving in the councilman position.

[CDTA]

Wow, not even an +SBS+ machine, but a turnstile.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This morning while waiting to get on the shuttle bus a guy got on and then he got off and mumbled that the machine was broken when he saw me with my Metrocard. I looked at him like "Uh okay", got on and walked and sat down. I mean am I supposed to miss my Spuyten Duyvil train because of a broken farebox? The driver had tissue in the farebox so nothing you can do there. As for the broken turnstile... If it is broken and there is another one around I would go to the other one that works because you're taking a risk hopping the turnstile. On the bus the driver already knows so he lets you pass or waives you on. I'm not sure why the guy didn't just stay on the shuttle, but it could've been because the driver didn't say anything or waive him on, but it doesn't matter because the box had tissue stuffed in it so the driver obviously thought folks would use commonsense and just get on. He didn't say anything to me because he knows that I just dip my card when the farebox works.

[7LineFan]

Guys, it's not a broken turnstile. It's a broken MVM.

[Guest Lance]

Wow, how did I miss that? And here I am always saying that reading is fundamental. That's what happens when you're doing several things at once.

 

Anyhow, the point still stands though.

[Roadcruiser1]

We can't stop it completely. Ships couldn't stop stowaways. I mean we could decrease their numbers, but I am certain we can't stop it completely, and this Councilman is committing and crime and should be punished for it.

[MottAvenueMan]

I tend to remember the fire hydrant scene from King of New York - "Nobody rides for free, mother..." Pay up!

[VWM]

Smh

[Brighton Local]

I warned NYPD about all the fare beating at Atlantic Terminal. Handfuls of kids each day hop the turnstile from the LIRR platforms into the subway. NYPD knows about it and hopefully are doing something to end this. Very annoying to watch. However, when some of them see me looking at them, they "walk" away until Im on my LIRR Train....

[INDman]

Guys, it's not a broken turnstile. It's a broken MVM.

 

 

That doesn't make a bit of difference, it's still fare evasion no matter how you slice it. Having a metrocard or valid pass means nothing to me (PATH Agent) or the cops I work with. I have had times when all the MVMs in my station were down at the sametime and people wanted to get passed through. Of all the people that came up to me, not one got passed through.

[QM1to6Ave]

Install more HEET's. Simple solution that might pay for itself (I do not know the cost of installing a HEET- maybe someone can enlighten me), at least in the stations with the most farebeating. Of course, those HEET's attract more criminals who like jamming people in there and robbing them, but I bet the MTA does not particularly care about that.

[Roadcruiser1]

Install more HEET's. Simple solution that might pay for itself (I do not know the cost of installing a HEET- maybe someone can enlighten me), at least in the stations with the most farebeating. Of course, those HEET's attract more criminals who like jamming people in there and robbing them, but I bet the MTA does not particularly care about that.

 

 

Or have congestion pricing in Manhattan and tolls on all bridges, have them be used to completely fund the , and then use that money to hire police officers on every subway station and train. Problem with crime is now dead.

[mark1447]

I'm very disappointed at this city official. He's should be AGAINST fare evasion, not standing by it. SMH!

 

 

Install more HEET's. Simple solution that might pay for itself (I do not know the cost of installing a HEET- maybe someone can enlighten me), at least in the stations with the most farebeating. Of course, those HEET's attract more criminals who like jamming people in there and robbing them, but I bet the MTA does not particularly care about that.

 

 

Having more HEET is a good idea, but people can still share a single fare and go through all together. Plus with the EM gates around, it won't stop anyone from pushing the bars and letting folks in.

[Roadcruiser1]

The EM Gates should be able to be opened on the outside only with a key the station operator has. No one else should be able to open it. If the station operator abandons his/her post and doesn't let people out during an emergency she/he can get in trouble. How about that? Workable?

[B35 via Church]

So when I see an out of service MVM, I have free reign to try to break into it.... "Sometimes"

 

Superb logic - Way to stick it to the MTA... How dare that MVM be OOS.....

Good job advocating crime, councilman Robert Jackass.

 

 

I warned NYPD about all the fare beating at Atlantic Terminal. Handfuls of kids each day hop the turnstile from the LIRR platforms into the subway. NYPD knows about it and hopefully are doing something to end this.

The turnstiles that lead you closer to the brighton line....

 

Yeah, they should just close those exits off permanently & be done with it....

Barely see any swiping (paying) passengers coming off the LIRR that use those turnstiles anyway.....

[7LineFan]

That doesn't make a bit of difference, it's still fare evasion no matter how you slice it.

 

Never said it wasn't. For a city official to condone this is utterly despicable.

[mark1447]

The EM Gates should be able to be opened on the outside only with a key the station operator has. No one else should be able to open it. If the station operator abandons his/her post and doesn't let people out during an emergency she/he can get in trouble. How about that? Workable?

 

 

I remember there was a button you pressed to contact the S/A when ever you needed access thru the gate. I think that needs to be restored. If an EM occurs, then the S/A will unlock it after communicating with them.

[Grand Concourse]

Speaking of turnstiles, the newly renovated Av J stop on the Brighton has a row of them and no booth there. What's to stop people from just hopping/ducking under them to skip paying the fare? I would've thought they should've built HEETs there.

[Princelex]

What a jackass to be saying that. WIth fools like this in the City Council, it's no wonder why this town is where it is. There is never an excuse for breaking the law. F*cking idiot.

[BrooklynIRT]

This thread gives me a chance to get into the problems with "fare beating" when done by those who would have paid the fare if it were not for faulty machinery, albeit I will emphasize the problems on the SBS side.

 

A lot of you are talking about what a travesty this is, but I for one am sort of glad this was brought up, due to the rash of broken SBS ticket machines. What I am saying is that this argument would be much more justified for the problems with the SBS machines.

 

The problem with a broken MVM/turnstile in an unstaffed entrance, assuming none of the entrances are staffed, is that doing the right thing means walking to another entrance (if there even is one), which has a working MVM/turnstile, and in doing this you run the risk of missing a train, adding time to your trip.

 

The problem with a broken SBS machine is that doing the right thing means either not using SBS (which will be problematic in the case of future SBS routes that will be more effective than those currently in operation and whose use will thus be incentivized, barring broken machines) or getting on, hoping that an inspector does not bother you, getting off at the next stop, paying there, and getting on the bus again. This also adds time to your trip, especially if other people have to do the same thing. It is also annoying and inconvenient, just like the situation with broken MVMs or turnstiles or whatever combined with the lack of the presence and help of an MTA employee.

 

I am just curious as to how you guys reason this one out. You say things like "the broken MVM/turnstile/whatever is no excuse for fare beating" and you seem to be heavily opposed to Jackson's opinion on the matter, but if you guys are so opposed to this and seem to think it is better to do the right thing (in subway land) as I described above, then does that mean you also think it is better for me to do the right thing (in SBS land) as I described above, than it is for me to get to a SBS stop, see that the machines are not working, board the bus, and take the bus wherever I am going? This is all assuming an idealized situation in which it is 100% certain that no fare inspectors will show up during my trip.

 

If it is not an idealized situation and thus fare inspectors can show up anywhere and at any time, then the difference between the subway version of this Catch-22 and the SBS version of this Catch-22 is that not doing the right thing in SBS land is much worse because you probably stand a greater chance of being summonsed for not doing the right thing in SBS land than you stand for not doing the right thing in subway land.

 

It seems to me that you guys are siding with the MTA while criticizing Jackson for this situation that occurred in subway land, but whenever this happens in SBS land everybody is very critical of the MTA while sympathizing with the SBS riders that intended on paying.

 

Now it is true that if the SBS machines at a rider's stop are not working, the rider is supposed to tell the bus operator and note the machine numbers. But assuming that MTA does not expect the riders to go through the hassle of getting off at the next stop, paying there (assuming those machines even work), and getting back on, does telling the bus operator and noting the machine numbers help when fare inspectors show up? No.

 

If I were in that situation, I would photograph the faulty machines (with the numbers visible in the photograph) with my cell phone camera and write down the numbers and date, time, and bus stop location. I would tell the bus operator about it and show an inspector the cell phone picture, numbers, date, time, and bus stop location, and actually if I had an unlimited card I would even go an extra step and show the inspector the receipt I got when I bought the card or when I most recently refilled the card, to show him/her that the serial numbers match, indicating that I would have gotten a receipt if the machine were working and thus I was not fare beating.

 

But even with all of that, would I avoid being summonsed to court and thus either losing money due to an inability to go to work or missing classes? Probably not. For the current SBS routes it is usually true that taking the local instead of the SBS does not add much time to the trip, because the current SBS routes are generally ineffective. But for at least one future SBS route and at least one particular section (1st Ave) of one current SBS route (M15), you need the SBS if your trip is long enough and you need to be somewhere (like work) by a certain time, because the difference in travel times between the SBS and the local could be 10 to 15 minutes.

 

In this case saying that the local is an option would be pushing it a good bit. Letting the machines break and doing nothing about them while causing passengers to deal with this level of inconvenience is ridiculous. The only way somebody could justify it is by saying times are tough since we are in a recession and people simply have to deal. This all goes for the subways too; the difference is that the subways are more effective than SBS and do not parallel local buses as much as SBS does.

 

Suppose there were no staffed entrance at 181 St on the . Would you guys then say that Jackson's wife or anybody else should have taken the M4 down Fort Washington Ave instead of going under the turnstile? If the person is just going to 168 then the M4 is not horrible. But if the person wants to go anywhere south of 168 along the IND, I know if that person is me there is no way I will ride slow local/limited buses for that distance. And in that case I would either be transferring from the M4 to the at 168 or transferring to the M3 there, or transferring to the at 175.

 

I know there is no way every turnstile would be out at 168 with no employees around to help, but still and all it is inconvenient to have to take a bus and then transfer to the subway rather than just take the subway from the get go on account of BS machine problems combined with unavailable help.

 

What I really want to know is why you guys seem to side with the MTA for this subway situation but most people seem to not side with MTA when this happens with SBS.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This thread gives me a chance to get into the problems with "fare beating" when done by those who would have paid the fare if it were not for faulty machinery, albeit I will emphasize the problems on the SBS side.

 

A lot of you are talking about what a travesty this is, but I for one am sort of glad this was brought up, due to the rash of broken SBS ticket machines. What I am saying is that this argument would be much more justified for the problems with the SBS machines.

 

The problem with a broken MVM/turnstile in an unstaffed entrance, assuming none of the entrances are staffed, is that doing the right thing means walking to another entrance (if there even is one), which has a working MVM/turnstile, and in doing this you run the risk of missing a train, adding time to your trip.

 

The problem with a broken SBS machine is that doing the right thing means either not using SBS (which will be problematic in the case of future SBS routes that will be more effective than those currently in operation and whose use will thus be incentivized, barring broken machines) or getting on, hoping that an inspector does not bother you, getting off at the next stop, paying there, and getting on the bus again. This also adds time to your trip, especially if other people have to do the same thing. It is also annoying and inconvenient, just like the situation with broken MVMs or turnstiles or whatever combined with the lack of the presence and help of an MTA employee.

 

I am just curious as to how you guys reason this one out. You say things like "the broken MVM/turnstile/whatever is no excuse for fare beating" and you seem to be heavily opposed to Jackson's opinion on the matter, but if you guys are so opposed to this and seem to think it is better to do the right thing (in subway land) as I described above, then does that mean you also think it is better for me to do the right thing (in SBS land) as I described above, than it is for me to get to a SBS stop, see that the machines are not working, board the bus, and take the bus wherever I am going? This is all assuming an idealized situation in which it is 100% certain that no fare inspectors will show up during my trip.

 

If it is not an idealized situation and thus fare inspectors can show up anywhere and at any time, then the difference between the subway version of this Catch-22 and the SBS version of this Catch-22 is that not doing the right thing in SBS land is much worse because you probably stand a greater chance of being summonsed for not doing the right thing in SBS land than you stand for not doing the right thing in subway land.

 

It seems to me that you guys are siding with the MTA while criticizing Jackson for this situation that occurred in subway land, but whenever this happens in SBS land everybody is very critical of the MTA while sympathizing with the SBS riders that intended on paying.

 

Now it is true that if the SBS machines at a rider's stop are not working, the rider is supposed to tell the bus operator and note the machine numbers. But assuming that MTA does not expect the riders to go through the hassle of getting off at the next stop, paying there (assuming those machines even work), and getting back on, does telling the bus operator and noting the machine numbers help when fare inspectors show up? No.

 

If I were in that situation, I would photograph the faulty machines (with the numbers visible in the photograph) with my cell phone camera and write down the numbers and date, time, and bus stop location. I would tell the bus operator about it and show an inspector the cell phone picture, numbers, date, time, and bus stop location, and actually if I had an unlimited card I would even go an extra step and show the inspector the receipt I got when I bought the card or when I most recently refilled the card, to show him/her that the serial numbers match, indicating that I would have gotten a receipt if the machine were working and thus I was not fare beating.

 

But even with all of that, would I avoid being summonsed to court and thus either losing money due to an inability to go to work or missing classes? Probably not. For the current SBS routes it is usually true that taking the local instead of the SBS does not add much time to the trip, because the current SBS routes are generally ineffective. But for at least one future SBS route and at least one particular section (1st Ave) of one current SBS route (M15), you need the SBS if your trip is long enough and you need to be somewhere (like work) by a certain time, because the difference in travel times between the SBS and the local could be 10 to 15 minutes.

 

In this case saying that the local is an option would be pushing it a good bit. Letting the machines break and doing nothing about them while causing passengers to deal with this level of inconvenience is ridiculous. The only way somebody could justify it is by saying times are tough since we are in a recession and people simply have to deal. This all goes for the subways too; the difference is that the subways are more effective than SBS and do not parallel local buses as much as SBS does.

 

Suppose there were no staffed entrance at 181 St on the . Would you guys then say that Jackson's wife or anybody else should have taken the M4 down Fort Washington Ave instead of going under the turnstile? If the person is just going to 168 then the M4 is not horrible. But if the person wants to go anywhere south of 168 along the IND, I know if that person is me there is no way I will ride slow local/limited buses for that distance. And in that case I would either be transferring from the M4 to the at 168 or transferring to the M3 there, or transferring to the at 175.

 

I know there is no way every turnstile would be out at 168 with no employees around to help, but still and all it is inconvenient to have to take a bus and then transfer to the subway rather than just take the subway from the get go on account of BS machine problems combined with unavailable help.

 

What I really want to know is why you guys seem to side with the MTA for this subway situation but most people seem to not side with MTA when this happens with SBS.

 

 

Well things are going to happen and that's why I leave my house with at least half an hour usually incase something does happen. I went to take MetroNorth a few days ago and decided that I would buy my ticket at the Spuyten Duyvil station. I get off of the shuttle and get to the machine to find out that there was a glitch when using your credit card. Luckily after trying a second time I got a ticket but what I will do from now on is just buy my tickets at Grand Central in advance because there are only two machines at the Spuyten Duyvil station so if they're both messed up (which could happen) then I would be stuck having to pay an exorbitant fare on board.

 

Now I have been in a situation where I had no cash on me and needed an Express Bus Plus Metrocard and the Union Square station... ALL of the machines could not take credit cards and my old card was set to expire at 00:00, not to mention that I didn't have time to get out of the Union Square station to get money from an ATM because I was trying to catch the express bus, so after going around and realizing that the whole station was down, I got back on the train and went down to Canal Street, to make sure that I had enough time to get a Metrocard and still get to the bus stop in time for the X1. It sucks royally when these glitches happen, but I still wouldn't excuse just beating the fare unless you have no choice. I can understand the predicament though because I would've been annoyed if I had to pay additional monies to get down to Canal Street.

[error46146]

Public transportation should be free if you ask me. That should solve the farebeating issue.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Public transportation should be free if you ask me. That should solve the farebeating issue.

 

 

Oh yeah? And how should we pay for this "free" public transportation??