news NYPD’s stop-and-frisk use violated rights: ruling

[Harry]

 

A federal judge declared the NYPD's use of stop-and-frisk unconstitutional Monday and appointed a monitor to make reforms. In a pair of much-anticipated rulings, Manhattan Federal Judge Shira Scheindlin said the Police Department had violated people's constitutional rights and that reforms were needed immediately — but she did not call for cops to jettison the practice. “To be very clear, I am not ordering an end to the practice of stop and frisk," Scheindlin wrote. She appointed former city corporation counsel Peter Zimroth as a monitor to oversee the changes. “Ensuring the people are not seized and searched by police on the streets of New York City without a legal basis is an important interest meriting judicial protection," she wrote.

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[Orion VII 4 Life]

Posted this myself as well. Feel free to merge the threads.

 

But anyway, this is a great victory for all of New York. Aside from the racial aspect, the policy violates the 4th Amendment, one of the greatest parts of our Bill of Rights, by unlawfully searching Stop & Frisk victims without consent or any reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a crime.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Posted this myself as well. Feel free to merge the threads.

 

But anyway, this is a great victory for all of New York. Aside from the racial aspect, the policy violates the 4th Amendment, one of the greatest parts of our Bill of Rights, by unlawfully searching Stop & Frisk victims without consent or any reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a crime.

"Reasonable suspicion" is debatable.

[Kamen Rider]

It's a defeat for New York and for our safety. Crime is going to go up again. We can't expect criminals to abide by the law, that's why they're criminals.

 

Lets look at it this way. I'm a middle class, educated white male. Speaking only statistically, what is the likelihood I would be walking around with an illegal gun ready to pop someone? It's slim to none. What's the probibility for a gang banging thug from the projects to have an illegal gun? Hell of a lot higher, isn't.

 

By the logic this judge used, when cops are out hunting a rapist, women should be brought in for questioning two, out of "equality" and "equal rights."

[Orion VII 4 Life]

It's a defeat for New York and for our safety. Crime is going to go up again. We can't expect criminals to abide by the law, that's why they're criminals.

 

Lets look at it this way. I'm a middle class, educated white male. Speaking only statistically, what is the likelihood I would be walking around with an illegal gun ready to pop someone? It's slim to none. What's the probibility for a gang banging thug from the projects to have an illegal gun? Hell of a lot higher, isn't.

 

By the logic this judge used, when cops are out hunting a rapist, women should be brought in for questioning two, out of "equality" and "equal rights."

I get what you're saying, but the cops can't go around breaking the law and violating people's rights in the name of safety. You're forcing an unconstitutional search on someone without a warrant or consent, and it's wrong. And the problem with these random stops in general is that the cops keep stopping who are doing absolutely nothing suspicious, and even worse is that the people stopped are mostly people of color. For the record, I'm white, and I don't care what the skin color of the guy you're stopping is, you can't be stopping someone with no reasonable suspicion and illegally searching them. The fact that the NYPD is obviously racially profiling here makes it worse.

[Turbo19]

It's a defeat for New York and for our safety. Crime is going to go up again. We can't expect criminals to abide by the law, that's why they're criminals.

 

Lets look at it this way. I'm a middle class, educated white male. Speaking only statistically, what is the likelihood I would be walking around with an illegal gun ready to pop someone? It's slim to none. What's the probibility for a gang banging thug from the projects to have an illegal gun? Hell of a lot higher, isn't.

 

By the logic this judge used, when cops are out hunting a rapist, women should be brought in for questioning two, out of "equality" and "equal rights."

I have a problem what your basis.

 

First off, why do you choose to mention your social class and education? That's irrelevant in the situation. Going by statistics alone, an individual of color who also attained a post secondary education is more likely to be stopped simply due to ethnicity.

 

Second, why does someone residing in a public housing project equate to a thug to you. That's a flawed way of thinking, which is unfortunately shared by many in the force.

 

Lastly, in the case you depicted women would be brought in for questioning, but likely for obtaining more info of the actual suspect. Besides, the two situations are very different.

[realizm]

It's a defeat for New York and for our safety. Crime is going to go up again. We can't expect criminals to abide by the law, that's why they're criminals.

 

Lets look at it this way. I'm a middle class, educated white male. Speaking only statistically, what is the likelihood I would be walking around with an illegal gun ready to pop someone? It's slim to none. What's the probibility for a gang banging thug from the projects to have an illegal gun? Hell of a lot higher, isn't.

 

By the logic this judge used, when cops are out hunting a rapist, women should be brought in for questioning two, out of "equality" and "equal rights."

 

So going by your logic all black men are criminals, gangbangers and rapists. All of them. Thanks I got the message loud and clear. What should be your solution to this so called perceived problem then? Override the US constitution and reinstate black apartheid?

 

I don't think racialism is a good way to combat crime according to this 'logic'.

 

You want to 'speak statistically' ? Over 86% of those stopped and frisked are Afro-American or Latino yet Afro Americans make up only 30.8 % of the population and Latinos only 27.5% of the population. Now if you may elaborate further on your point. I would love to hear it.

[Kamen Rider]

this is the problem with people these days. they read too much into things.

 

Turbo, I'm going to teach you a new word. It's called an "Example". It means one item held up for comparison purposes. Did I say everyone who lived in the projects was a gang banging thug? No I didn't, but you went and assumed that. Did I say that all gang banging thugs lived in the projects. No I didn't, again you're just puting words in my mouth and there is almost nothing that pisses me off more than that.

 

Are there gang banging thugs? Yes.

 

Are there gang banging thugs who live in projects? Yes.

 

Are there gang banging thugs who live in projects who own an illegal weapon? Yes.

 

Are there gang banging thugs who live in projects who own an illegal weapon who have used it or inted to use it to commit a violent crime? Yes.

 

Am I a gang banging thug? No.

 

Am I a gang banging thug who lives in a project? No.

 

Am I a gang banging thug who lives in a project and owns an illegal weapon? No.

 

Am I a gang banging thug who lives in a project and owns an illegal weapon and have used it or intend to use it to commite a violent crime? No.

 

 

 

As for realizm, who seems to be the real racist here, did I ever use the word "Black"? or any other words to signify any racial or ethnical words?  The only person who's enthicity I mentioned was myself, and that was simply for your benifit.

 

Last time I checked, there were non blacks males who fall under the crimustances I listed above. There are female gang members. Ever hear of MS 113? Or how about The Latin Kings? I would list others but to be brutaily honest I've never kept up with small time gang names and who joins what. 

 

 

If it is wrong that a person can be signled out for having commited a crime because of one defining charactoristic, then isn't the asumption that a rapist on the prowl is a male therefor sexist?  Not really, becuase by and large, the vast majority of rapists are male.

 

Are all males rapists? Of Coruse not.

 

Are all black males criminals? Of course not.

 

Are all Arabs terrorists? Of Course not as well.

 

BUT

 

like I said several months ago. Far too many terrorist are arabs. Far too many men are rapist and far too many people of minorirty backgrounds are commiting the kinds of violent crime S&F is ment to detir. Personaly I don't like that as much as the next guy. I want to live in a world where stop and frisk would never have been nessiasry. But the ones who are causing it to be nessisary are amoung those who are fighting it. They are balming the cops, when they should be blaming those around them who are shooting, stabing and robbing.

[realizm]

As for realizm, who seems to be the real racist here, did I ever use the word "Black"? or any other words to signify any racial or ethnical words?  The only person who's enthicity I mentioned was myself, and that was simply for your benifit.

 

Last time I checked, there were non blacks males who fall under the crimustances I listed above. There are female gang members. Ever hear of MS 113? Or how about The Latin Kings? I would list others but to be brutaily honest I've never kept up with small time gang names and who joins what. 

 

 

If it is wrong that a person can be signled out for having commited a crime because of one defining charactoristic, then isn't the asumption that a rapist on the prowl is a male therefor sexist?  Not really, becuase by and large, the vast majority of rapists are male.

 

Are all males rapists? Of Coruse not.

 

Are all black males criminals? Of course not.

 

Are all Arabs terrorists? Of Course not as well.

 

BUT

 

like I said several months ago. Far too many terrorist are arabs. Far too many men are rapist and far too many people of minorirty backgrounds are commiting the kinds of violent crime S&F is ment to detir. Personaly I don't like that as much as the next guy. I want to live in a world where stop and frisk would never have been nessiasry. But the ones who are causing it to be nessisary are amoung those who are fighting it. They are balming the cops, when they should be blaming those around them who are shooting, stabing and robbing.

 

So now you are implying that all Arabs are terrorists. And because I called you out on this as well as the blanket statement on blacks you call me a racist here, when you are the one making the racial microaggressive statements.

 

You really don't need to explain yourself further.

[GojiMet86]

You know that a majority of people that live in projects are minorities. You know that "thugs" from the projects probably won't be white. Don't be playing stupid, Kamen.

[realizm]

Let's throw in the fact that many women are actually convicted rapists contrary to popular belief preying on little kids in cases of child molestation, despite what the media says according to his 'logic' , let alone the presumptions presented that the overwhelming majority of blacks are criminals when there is varying circumstances such as racial profiling that makes it so. That the overwhelming number of terrorists are Arab when there are more cases of domestic terrorism around the world that makes terrorists rom the middleeast a minute frame when compared? My question was still was not answered. Why is it that over 86% of blacks and Latinos subject to frisks when they do not even make up more than half the population of NYC?

[Kamen Rider]

Well, relizim, you made me out to be a racist when I'm nothing of the sort. Seems to me that is only to hide your own issues or preducices.

 

I'm not playing stupid. I'm not playing racist. What I am playing, however, are statisitics. Numbers. Information. Anyone here ever watch "Person of Intrest?" The "Machine" watches peoples habits and behaviors. I'm doing roughly the same thing.  

 

There is a simple fact here that no one wants to accept...

 

 

 

That I'm right.

 

 

No, we can't have that can we. We'll make it look like he's saying it because they are black or becuase they a poor or whatever. That'll get him to shut up. We can't have facts in our converstations...

 

 

I treat people as true equals. I judge them by thier actions, not by what they look like. I don't assume a guy walking twords me with braided hair wearing a wife beater is going to attack me anymore than anyone else. The simple fact of the matter is that, speaking on a non emotional, factual, statistical basis, a person who fits that description is more likely to do exactly that, jump some one, anyone. But not becuase he's black or hispanic or whatever. that's not what makes a person violent.

 

There were 17 shootings in a roughly 6 hour period, from Midnight to sunrise on Sunday. They took place in low income, minority populated areas.

 

If they would just stop trying to kill each other, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[realizm]

You have no basis for calling me a racist. Nonsense. You just messed yourself up with your contradictory statements and now you are throwing the blame on me. For the record, I live in a mostly white neighborhood and no one will even begin to mark me out as a racist. To the contrary, we would not have this conversation if it wasn't due to your comments as listed on page 1 of this thread.

[GojiMet86]

Well, relizim, you made me out to be a racist when I'm nothing of the sort. Seems to me that is only to hide your own issues or preducices.

 

I'm not playing stupid. I'm not playing racist. What I am playing, however, are statisitics. Numbers. Information. Anyone here ever watch "Person of Intrest?" The "Machine" watches peoples habits and behaviors. I'm doing roughly the same thing.  

 

There is a simple fact here that no one wants to accept...

 

 

 

That I'm right.

 

 

No, we can't have that can we. We'll make it look like he's saying it because they are black or becuase they a poor or whatever. That'll get him to shut up. We can't have facts in our converstations...

 

 

I treat people as true equals. I judge them by thier actions, not by what they look like. I don't assume a guy walking twords me with braided hair wearing a wife beater is going to attack me anymore than anyone else. The simple fact of the matter is that, speaking on a non emotional, factual, statistical basis, a person who fits that description is more likely to do exactly that, jump some one, anyone. But not becuase he's black or hispanic or whatever. that's not what makes a person violent.

 

There were 17 shootings in a roughly 6 hour period, from Midnight to sunrise on Sunday. They took place in low income, minority populated areas.

 

If they would just stop trying to kill each other, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

So if I put some "ghetto" clothes on, braid my hair, and start speaking slang, then I'm more likely than you to commit a crime? And you say you don't judge people by their looks.

[realizm]

And Kamen how can you be 'right' when you never answered my question? Again why are over 86% of those frisked people of color when they do not make uo 50% of the NYC population. Don't you see that racial profiling exists? Simple question. I don't think you have to play victim here to simply acknowledge my point. because that is statistically true. And for that matter I am highly offended by your accusations.

All arabs are terrorists? Excuse me, I happen to be part Iranian. And so you call me a racist based on that? Maybe it's the contrary.....

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

This is great. I am sick of this Stop and Frisk program because cops keep stopping people without any logical reason. The people stopped by this is during the time they aren't doing nothing and it grinds my stomach that most of the people stopped are blacks and latinos. Being a latino myself, this concerns me a lot. Something has to be done because this program was going to cause a lot of chaos since day 1.

[Kamen Rider]

Well, real, since you keep putting words in my mouth, which I said gets me pissed off to no end, it seems fair game.

 

The you and goji can't seem to read anyway. I keep saying things and you go off about the exact friggen opposite of what I've just said.

 

 

Nor do you seem to know anything about ethnicy. If you're Irianian, then you're not arab. Arabs come from Arabia.

 

 

I said, "Not all arabs are terrorists" what is the issue that too many terrorists are arab.

[realizm]

Well, real, since you keep putting words in my mouth, which I said gets me pissed off to no end, it seems fair game.

 

The you and goji can't seem to read anyway. I keep saying things and you go off about the exact friggen opposite of what I've just said.

 

 

Nor do you seem to know anything about ethnicy. If you're Irianian, then you're not arab. Arabs come from Arabia.

 

 

I said, "Not all arabs are terrorists" what is the issue that too many terrorists are arab.

 

First the politically correct term is Middle-eastern. Second 'Arabia' is not a country in the 21st century if you understand your geography. It's geographically referred to as 'Western Asia"  Third, again most of the terrorist acts around the world are acts of domestic terrorism, apparently the mainstream American media has you jaded .

 

And so now you are telling me about how I should identify myself as a part Asian/Iranian American when you are not?

 

Pot calling the kettle black overmuch you think?

You pissed off to no end? Hey you brought this on yourself. All you had to do was prove your points without the stereotypical references to people of color. Then it wouldn't be a problem here with how this discussion digressed.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

This is why you cant have conversations like this one...

 

And this is only the second page..

[GojiMet86]

Well, real, since you keep putting words in my mouth, which I said gets me pissed off to no end, it seems fair game.

 

The you and goji can't seem to read anyway. I keep saying things and you go off about the exact friggen opposite of what I've just said.

 

 

Nor do you seem to know anything about ethnicy. If you're Irianian, then you're not arab. Arabs come from Arabia.

 

 

I said, "Not all arabs are terrorists" what is the issue that too many terrorists are arab.

 

Of course I say the opposite, 'cause the things you say are contradictory.

 

You clearly wrote:

 

I treat people as true equals. I judge them by thier actions, not by what they look like. I don't assume a guy walking twords me with braided hair wearing a wife beater is going to attack me anymore than anyone else. The simple fact of the matter is that, speaking on a non emotional, factual, statistical basis, a person who fits that description is more likely to do exactly that, jump some one, anyone. But not becuase he's black or hispanic or whatever. that's not what makes a person violent.

 

 

But then you went on to say that:

 

 

There were 17 shootings in a roughly 6 hour period, from Midnight to sunrise on Sunday. They took place in low income, minority populated areas.

 

If they would just stop trying to kill each other, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Who are "they"? 

 

You clearly pointed out that the crimes happened in low income, minority areas. And then you had the nerve to say if only "they would just stop trying to kill each other". You wrote in the first part that being black or latino doesn't make one violent. But then you contradicted yourself in saying "they". Again, who are you referring to when you say "they"? Who's shooting the other? The minority?

[realizm]

This is why you cant have conversations like this one...

 

And this is only the second page..

Really I am not enjoying this conversation, neither are many of the members here so far, because of these posted statements. That's what is throwing off this discussion. If someone disagrees with the stop and frisk policy it's one thing but to make stereotypical references meant to offend (and with inaccuracies on top of that) is another story. I started the original thread on March 18 2013 when this class action lawsuit was taken up in Supreme Court. There was some who had opposing viewpoints on the stop and frisk issue. But no racist stereotypical references were hurled all over the thread. Now it is here because of one member.

[DJ MC]

Really I am not enjoying this conversation, neither are many of the members here so far, because of these posted statements. That's what is throwing off this discussion. If someone disagrees with the stop and frisk policy it's one thing but to make stereotypical references meant to offend (and with inaccuracies on top of that) is another story. I started the original thread on March 18 2013 when this class action lawsuit was taken up in Supreme Court. There was some who had opposing viewpoints on the stop and frisk issue. But no racist stereotypical references were hurled all over the thread. Now it is here because of one member.

 

Some are just that desperate to prove a point around here. 

[realizm]

Welcome to the internet.

[Kamen Rider]

First the politically correct term is Middle-eastern. Second 'Arabia' is not a country in the 21st century if you understand your geography. It's geographically referred to as 'Western Asia"  Third, again most of the terrorist acts around the world are acts of domestic terrorism, apparently the mainstream American media has you jaded .

 

And so now you are telling me about how I should identify myself as a part Asian/Iranian American when you are not?

 

Pot calling the kettle black overmuch you think?You pissed off to no end? Hey you brought this on yourself. All you had to do was prove your points without the stereotypical references to people of color. Then it wouldn't be a problem here with how this discussion digressed.

Arabia is still a place. Ever hear of the Arabian Peninsula? Middle eastern is too broad a category. That drags other ethnic groups into fray, groups who may or may not have anything to do with the subject at hand. There is no body politic called "Long Island" and yet how many people her consider themselves Long Islanders? I'm not telling you to consider yourself anything, there you go putting words in my mouth again. All I'm saying is that by the general definition of the word Arab, you're not one. Be about as reasonable as me taking offense to something said about Scotland when I'm Irish.

 

I discuss behavior patters because they are the best way to understand a person and thier potentional intentions. The way the speak, the way the walk, the way the hold themsevels. The way they take care of themselves.

 

A friend of the family passed away recently. Her son was a police officer. I could tell which of the people in the funeral home were cops. Age, race, size, shape, didn't matter, I could pick out the behavioral cues. I just needed to give them the once over and I could tell. I picked that up from my father and grandfather. Both were good, honest cops. If they stopped anyone, they had the right guy at the right time. They're not the kind of cops people like you guys seem to think are all around you. If you want to talk about stereotypes...

[Kamen Rider]

Of course I say the opposite, 'cause the things you say are contradictory.

 

You clearly wrote:

 

 

But then you went on to say that:

 

 

Who are "they"? 

 

You clearly pointed out that the crimes happened in low income, minority areas. And then you had the nerve to say if only "they would just stop trying to kill each other". You wrote in the first part that being black or latino doesn't make one violent. But then you contradicted yourself in saying "they". Again, who are you referring to when you say "they"? Who's shooting the other? The minority?

 

You need to start using your brain more. If you can't connect the dots...

 

"They" are the ones who are ruining everything for everyone else. The vast majoirty of crimes are by people of the same ethnic group as the victim. Blacks are more likley to victimize other blacks, latinos other latinos and so on.