news NYC savings from MTA takeover of private bus routes never arrived

[Harry]

 

The MTA is busy trying to stave off a strike by Long Island Rail Road workers, but a new analysis by the city Independent Budget Office suggests it might want to look at its spending on buses too. To save money, former Mayor Michael Bloomberg pushed the MTA to take over 82 bus lines, mainly running in Queens, run by seven private franchisees. Having the agency control the routes, he suggested in 2002, would save the city as much as $175 million a year in subsidies to the private companies. The MTA took over the last of those lines in 2006 -- but the city isn't reaping the savings, the IBO found.

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm not sure I understand the article.  It's the city that's paying more to operate Bus, not the , so what should they be looking at?  I assume they're referring to salaries/benefits? It's already known that the drivers at Bus earn less and have less benefits then those working under NYCT.  I suppose they could do something about the costs to rent the space at the Bus depots as well, but I'm not sure how much could be done.  The city provides subsidies to the for a very good reason, and the reason goes back to every neighborhood in New York City having adequate transportation where subways don't exist.  For years communities without subway service argued that they were shafted, having to pay double fares and having long commutes due to their locations and a lack of subway service, and so the city responded by agreeing to subsidize bus service, and in my mind they need to uphold this.  It would be dangerous of them not to do so as we've seen what cutting bus service has done in numerous communities in terms of their economic vitality.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I'm not sure I understand the article.  It's the city that's paying more to operate Bus, not the , so what should they be looking at?  I assume they're referring to salaries/benefits? It's already known that the drivers at Bus earn less and have less benefits then those working under NYCT.  I suppose they could do something about the costs to rent the space at the Bus depots as well, but I'm not sure how much could be done.  The city provides subsidies to the for a very good reason, and the reason goes back to every neighborhood in New York City having adequate transportation where subways don't exist.  For years communities without subway service argued that they were shafted, having to pay double fares and having long commutes due to their locations and a lack of subway service, and so the city responded by agreeing to subsidize bus service, and in my mind they need to uphold this.  It would be dangerous of them not to do so as we've seen what cutting bus service has done in numerous communities in terms of their economic vitality.

If/when MTA Bus merges with NYCT, I can almost gurantee this will be one of several reasons that would "justify" them cutting service.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If/when MTA Bus merges with NYCT, I can almost gurantee this will be one of several reasons that would "justify" them cutting service.

I suppose so, but the city needs to uphold its agreement to these communities.  Some places such as Co-Op City were built with the agreement that there would be good public transportation to and from those neighborhoods, and that's why for example, I would argue that Co-Op City remains so vocal and has a sense of "entitlement" when it comes to bus service in their community.  Co-Op City wasn't the only neighborhood that was given this sort of agreement though...

[Lennyj17]

MTA, needs the merger in the worse way.... Too much inefficiencies and redundant services. Plus it streamlines everything, almost like an entire bus network overhaul once MTAB is absorbed into NYCT. Routes will be merged, and moved to more logical depots to lessen deadheading. Depots will close be moved or consolidated.

 

I can't wait for this day....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

MTA, needs the merger in the worse way.... Too much inefficiencies and redundant services. Plus it streamlines everything, almost like an entire bus network overhaul once MTAB is absorbed into NYCT. Routes will be merged, and moved to more logical depdots to lessen deadheading. Depots will close or be consolidated. 

 

I can't wait for this day....

Tell me where these "redundant services" exist? I'd like concrete examples please. Don't you live in Co-Op City? Be careful what you wish for.  Your BxM7 would surely see cuts, despite its high ridership.  It receives generous service under Bus that it would not get should a merger occur.  I would argue that the same would happen with the Bx23 too but that service has already seen pretty sizable cuts.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

MTA, needs the merger in the worse way.... Too much inefficiencies and redundant services. Plus it streamlines everything, almost like an entire bus network overhaul once MTAB is absorbed into NYCT. Routes will be merged, and moved to more logical depdots to lessen deadheading. Depots will close or be consolidated. 

 

I can't wait for this day....

It's still gonna be a VERY tough ride with those unions. See in most cases an MTA Bus depot is not under the same union as their local NYCT depot, so you'll have the unions constantly fighting over who gets what routes and all that. Example if you tried to move the Q20 to College Point the Casey Stengel union (ATU) would start fighting over it, just like TWU at CP would throw a fit if "their" work went to Stengel even if they get a route or 2 from them in return. It's already a problem under MTA Bus as it is today, the depots under ATU (JFK/FR/SC) don't want their work going to the TWU depots (all the rest of the company) and vice versa.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

MTA, needs the merger in the worse way.... Too much inefficiencies and redundant services. Plus it streamlines everything, almost like an entire bus network overhaul once MTAB is absorbed into NYCT. Routes will be merged, and moved to more logical depots to lessen deadheading. Depots will close be moved or consolidated.

 

I can't wait for this day....

Most of the redudant services or inefficent services have been merged or eliminated already.

 

 

Tell me where these "redundant services" exist? I'd like concrete examples please. Don't you live in Co-Op City? Be careful what you wish for.  Your BxM7 would surely see cuts, despite its high ridership.  It receives generous service under   Bus that it would not get should a merger occur.  I would argue that the same would happen with the Bx23 too but that service has already seen pretty sizable cuts.

 

If that's the case, then expect every express bus line ( BUS) to have cuts.

 

As for the BxM7, I don't see any cuts in span, if anything, they might cut every other trip towards Manhattan in the late evening hours, and eliminate the super express trips, and and short turns, and just make one unison trip patterns through all of Co-Op City, will making it a unison headway (of 6-7 minutes) to accommodate the increase loads (with probably several short-turns at Bellamy Loop).

 

 

It's still gonna be a VERY tough ride with those unions. See in most cases an MTA Bus depot is not under the same union as their local NYCT depot, so you'll have the unions constantly fighting over who gets what routes and all that. Example if you tried to move the Q20 to College Point the Casey Stengel union (ATU) would start fighting over it, just like TWU at CP would throw a fit if "their" work went to Stengel even if they get a route or 2 from them in return. It's already a problem under MTA Bus as it is today, the depots under ATU (JFK/FR/SC) don't want their work going to the TWU depots (all the rest of the company) and vice versa.

 

The Q32 was a split between Quill and Stengel for quite a while. So it's possible. Before that, the 32 was all Quill, and now it's all Stengel. Quill is TWU, IIRC.

[Q43LTD]

It's still gonna be a VERY tough ride with those unions. See in most cases an MTA Bus depot is not under the same union as their local NYCT depot, so you'll have the unions constantly fighting over who gets what routes and all that. Example if you tried to move the Q20 to College Point the Casey Stengel union (ATU) would start fighting over it, just like TWU at CP would throw a fit if "their" work went to Stengel even if they get a route or 2 from them in return. It's already a problem under MTA Bus as it is today, the depots under ATU (JFK/FR/SC) don't want their work going to the TWU depots (all the rest of the company) and vice versa.

I thought one single depot didn't "own" a route?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I thought one single depot didn't "own" a route?

They don't but with the unions they might as well "own" it...

 

 

If that's the case, then expect every express bus line (   BUS) to have cuts.

 

As for the BxM7, I don't see any cuts in span, if anything, they might cut every other trip towards Manhattan in the late evening hours, and eliminate the super express trips, and and short turns, and just make one unison trip patterns through all of Co-Op City, will making it a unison headway (of 6-7 minutes) to accommodate the increase loads (with probably several short-turns at Bellamy Loop).

 

That's precisely my point...

[aemoreira81]

Tell me where these "redundant services" exist? I'd like concrete examples please. Don't you live in Co-Op City? Be careful what you wish for.  Your BxM7 would surely see cuts, despite its high ridership.  It receives generous service under Bus that it would not get should a merger occur.  I would argue that the same would happen with the Bx23 too but that service has already seen pretty sizable cuts.

 

They would be more on the "behind the scenes" issues than anything. Most of these changes would not be visible to the riding public. Some of these changes would include scheduling under a single set of guidelines, reassignment of equipment and routes, and the addition of more part-timers.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They would be more on the "behind the scenes" issues than anything. Most of these changes would not be visible to the riding public. Some of these changes would include scheduling under a single set of guidelines, reassignment of equipment and routes, and the addition of more part-timers.

And more part-timers would mean more cuts in service... Precisely what we don't need.  In my mind the days of there being waste around in terms of bus service is long gone and there are still some people that want more cuts.  The loading guidelines have been increased especially on the local buses and if you start making the frequencies of express bus service more than an hour off-peak, you start deterring people from using it. I know of several people (mainly elderly women) that don't commute on Sundays via the express bus because of the hour headways.  Quite frankly I can't blame them.  If you just miss an bus, waiting an hour can be torture if you don't have anywhere to sit or if you have bags etc.  In my mind it is better to keep NYCT and Bus separate, and hopefully it remains that way, as I don't see the unions being willing to merge so easily.

[Lennyj17]

And more part-timers would mean more cuts in service... Precisely what we don't need.  In my mind the days of there being waste around in terms of bus service is long gone and there are still some people that want more cuts.  The loading guidelines have been increased especially on the local buses and if you start making the frequencies of express bus service more than an hour off-peak, you start deterring people from using it. I know of several people (mainly elderly women) that don't commute on Sundays via the express bus because of the hour headways.  Quite frankly I can't blame them.  If you just miss an bus, waiting an hour can be torture if you don't have anywhere to sit or if you have bags etc.  In my mind it is better to keep NYCT and Bus separate, and hopefully it remains that way, as I don't see the unions being willing to merge so easily.

 

Why is everything a World Ending scenario with you, when anyone mentions "Change" ..... Yes MTAB merger would be good for everyone.... Equipment could be rotated much easier throughout the depots.

 

Maybe then MTAB wouldn't be treated as this Read-Headed step child. Hell  MTAB can't even get decent Bus Stops, and until recently didn't even have Guide-A-Ride Boxes. 

 

And think about the mess when YON closes, if it closes... Where are those EXP routes going (your beloved BXM1/2/18)... logic would be to send them to KB, but can't do that so they'll have to Deadhead all the way from ECH?  MTA as of now (which the city is currently B*tching about) waste a ton of $$ on Deadheading now within MTAB mostly.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why is everything a World Ending scenario with you, when anyone mentions "Change" ..... Yes MTAB merger would be good for everyone.... Equipment could be rotated much easier throughout the depots.

 

Maybe then MTAB wouldn't be treated as this Read-Headed step child. Hell  MTAB can't even get decent Bus Stops, and until recently didn't even have Guide-A-Ride Boxes. 

 

And think about the mess when YON closes, if it closes... Where are those EXP routes going (your beloved BXM1/2/18)... logic would be to send them to KB, but can't do that so they'll have to Deadhead all the way from ECH?  MTA as of now (which the city is currently B*tching about) waste a ton of $$ on Deadheading now within MTAB mostly.  

Tell me what is so "fabulous" about service cuts?  You still didn't answer or acknowledge my comment about your beloved BxM7.  There is no way in hell you would have 5 minute headways if a merger happened.  There is no mess with Yonkers.  It's open precisely because the refuses to close it unless the city of Yonkers gives them money for a more suitable location, since it is the city of Yonkers that wants the space to make way for residential buildings along the water (i.e. condos).  Where exactly is Kingsbridge supposed to put those buses?  Second, Kingsbridge is not ideal for deadheading to Woodlawn or Riverdale for that matter, as Yonkers is much closer to those locations. 

 

And where exactly is all of this deadheading occurring that you're talking about? Yonkers is not an issue, nor is Eastchester for that matter.  

 

Also, where does it say that the city is "b*tching"?  It just says that perhaps the should look at it's Bus operations which have increased, but I don't know how you can automatically assume that it's all due to deadheading?  Pension costs and healthcare costs for both NYCT and Bus have increased significantly, and continue to do so.

[bobtehpanda]

I suppose so, but the city needs to uphold its agreement to these communities.  Some places such as Co-Op City were built with the agreement that there would be good public transportation to and from those neighborhoods, and that's why for example, I would argue that Co-Op City remains so vocal and has a sense of "entitlement" when it comes to bus service in their community.  Co-Op City wasn't the only neighborhood that was given this sort of agreement though...

 

There are a lot of communities that were built with promises of good transportation (the Buhre Av corridor, the ends of Nostrand and Utica, the high-rise UES, etc.) but either aren't getting it or have been waiting for almost a century. Any such promises should really be taken with a dump truck of salt.

 

In any case, the main benefit to customers was getting new vehicles, particularly on the local lines that were running with less-than-stellar equipment.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

The MTA is busy trying to stave off a strike by Long Island Rail Road workers, but a new analysis by the city Independent Budget Office suggests it might want to look at its spending on buses too. To save money, former Mayor Michael Bloomberg pushed the MTA to take over 82 bus lines, mainly running in Queens, run by seven private franchisees. Having the agency control the routes, he suggested in 2002, would save the city as much as $175 million a year in subsidies to the private companies. The MTA took over the last of those lines in 2006 -- but the city isn't reaping the savings, the IBO found.

 

Maybe the savings didn't materialize because they were reinvested in...

 

new buses,

 

added/restructured service, and

 

new schedules based on actual ridership and running time data (which NYCDOT never allowed).

[Gotham Bus Co.]

It's still gonna be a VERY tough ride with those unions. See in most cases an MTA Bus depot is not under the same union as their local NYCT depot, so you'll have the unions constantly fighting over who gets what routes and all that. Example if you tried to move the Q20 to College Point the Casey Stengel union (ATU) would start fighting over it, just like TWU at CP would throw a fit if "their" work went to Stengel even if they get a route or 2 from them in return. It's already a problem under MTA Bus as it is today, the depots under ATU (JFK/FR/SC) don't want their work going to the TWU depots (all the rest of the company) and vice versa.

 

Prior arbitrators have ruled (in cases of TA/OA route swaps) that the routes "belong" to the , not to the unions, in recongition of the contractual "management rights" clause — i.e. management reserves the right to manage.  I can easily imagine similar rulings for swaps among MTAB depots (e.g. Q53 to Far Rockaway, Q60 to Baisley Park).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There are a lot of communities that were built with promises of good transportation (the Buhre Av corridor, the ends of Nostrand and Utica, the high-rise UES, etc.) but either aren't getting it or have been waiting for almost a century. Any such promises should really be taken with a dump truck of salt.

 

In any case, the main benefit to customers was getting new vehicles, particularly on the local lines that were running with less-than-stellar equipment.

Well if anything I don't think that the service is the main issue why the costs for Bus has increased.  The has cut quite a bit of service since it took over the lines and even eliminated some lines, so the idea that somehow there is so much service that can be cut seems rather delusional.  New buses were badly needed, and newer facilities as well.  We're talking about almost 12 years ago.  Why wouldn't the costs go up?  NYC has changed significantly since then and real estate in the city continues to go up, not just in Manhattan, but in the outer areas as well.  

 

As for promises of good transportation to these communities not being completed, that is completely unacceptable.  You destroy once vibrant communities when you cut transportation.  Sheepshead Bay is a perfect example of this.  There are TONS of new housing that has been sitting empty for years and the exodus started precisely when the B4 and BM3 service was cut.  I am almost certain that some of these buildings were created with taxpayer dollars in some way shape or form, and not only does the city not get anything back on these buildings, the fewer businesses thriving in that area and the fewer residents living there, the fewer tax dollars for the city to invest in other projects.

[NewFlyer 230]

Basically things will be almost the same after the megers. Unions are still different so that won't change much Queens MTA bus unions are different from NYCT ones so their probably won't be swaps like the Q112 to JA or Q15 to CS unless it's gonna have a effect on something. One thing I do see is cuts and I see express routes suffering the worst. The QM18 I definitely see in danger. The QM21 could be gone completely with the X63 being altered a little because most people in that area use the Q111/Q113. I always say this but I just feel that the Q21 is going to be eliminated and the Q11 and Q41 are alternatives because many get off at the Rockaway Blvd station anyway. The Q41's headways are better since the Q21 runs at every 30 almost all the time except during early mornings and evenings. The Q34 might be messed with and a few others little things like cutting the Q101 back to Queens Plaza and so on. I can't wait for these ancient but signs to be replace because they look ugly and they don't help anyone at all. People ask on the Q25 and Q65 does this bus go to Flushing or so on. I know the MTA will definitely want them to be replaced because they want everything unified.

 

 

The big question is when will this merger be complete. It will be 10 years 11 for LGA and JFK since the take over happened and still not finished.

[aemoreira81]

Why is everything a World Ending scenario with you, when anyone mentions "Change" ..... Yes MTAB merger would be good for everyone.... Equipment could be rotated much easier throughout the depots.

 

Maybe then MTAB wouldn't be treated as this Read-Headed step child. Hell  MTAB can't even get decent Bus Stops, and until recently didn't even have Guide-A-Ride Boxes. 

 

And think about the mess when YON closes, if it closes... Where are those EXP routes going (your beloved BXM1/2/18)... logic would be to send them to KB, but can't do that so they'll have to Deadhead all the way from ECH?  MTA as of now (which the city is currently B*tching about) waste a ton of $$ on Deadheading now within MTAB mostly.  

 

 

Most likely, the BxM1/2/3/4/18 would go to Kingsbridge (it is also possible that the BxM3 could be cut in Yonkers), and the BxM11 would head to ECH. But keep in mind that ECH has a lot of unused space. The routes that KB would likely lose would be the Bx9 and possibly the Bx41---to WF and GH, respectively. The Bx16 and Bx34 could then get bounced to ECH/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Most likely, the BxM1/2/3/4/18 would go to Kingsbridge (it is also possible that the BxM3 could be cut in Yonkers), and the BxM11 would head to ECH. 

And what makes you think that??

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

And what makes you think that??

Nothing realistic.

Most likely, the BxM1/2/3/4/18 would go to Kingsbridge (it is also possible that the BxM3 could be cut in Yonkers), and the BxM11 would head to ECH. But keep in mind that ECH has a lot of unused space. The routes that KB would likely lose would be the Bx9 and possibly the Bx41---to WF and GH, respectively. The Bx16 and Bx34 could then get bounced to ECH/

You do realize, the BxM3 is specifically catered for Yonkers and Kingsbridge. It runs in Riverdale only because it's the only option. Eliminate the Yonkers portion of the BxM3, and the MTA will have a good reason to severely cut all off peak service, and basterdized the AM BxM3 service, to where different sections would have different headways.

[NewFlyer 230]

Nothing realistic.

Just a lot of complication.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

 

You do realize, the BxM3 is specifically catered for Yonkers and Kingsbridge.

 

If it "is specifically catered for Yonkers," then Westchester D.O.T. (a/k/a "Bee-Line") should run it.  There is no legitimate reason for asking New York City residents to subsidize Yonkers riders.

[Cait Sith]

Nothing realistic.

 

You do realize, the BxM3 is specifically catered for Yonkers and Kingsbridge. It runs in Riverdale only because it's the only option. Eliminate the Yonkers portion of the BxM3, and the MTA will have a good reason to severely cut all off peak service, and basterdized the AM BxM3 service, to where different sections would have different headways.

 

False, it's not specifically catered for Yonkers residents specifically because it hardly gets any mileage up there with only 5 stops along with the fact that there's 3 trips in the AM that doesn't even start at Yonkers, that kinda says alot. It's more catered to East Riverdale and Kingsbridge Folks, where it's peak of the ridership shows.

 

And it wouldn't be the first time the MTA looked into cutting off-peak BxM3s. IF they were to cut service to Yonkers, the last stop would likely be 262nd Street & Broadway, which between there and Sedgwick/KB Road gets the bulk of ridership.