alekr Posted July 12, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 12, 2014 I noticed on the schedules that it states from Montauk to Penn have to transfer at Jamaica or Babylon to continue trip. Why is that and not offering on all rides one seat ride. I'm not talking about the cannonball service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theaveragejoe Posted July 12, 2014 Share #2 Posted July 12, 2014 I noticed on the schedules that it states from Montauk to Penn have to transfer at Jamaica or Babylon to continue trip. Why is that and not offering on all rides one seat ride. I'm not talking about the cannonball service. Not enough Dual Modes would be my guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quill Depot Posted July 12, 2014 Share #3 Posted July 12, 2014 Only a limited amount of trains can go through to Penn, due to the lack of tracks. Also I assume other lines have more demand, but don't quote me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted July 12, 2014 Share #4 Posted July 12, 2014 Unless things have drastically changed the Montauk line was not electrified and that meant diesel power for motive and you can't take diesels thru the tunnels into Penn station because of it as it was not setup for ventilation of the fumes or forced ventilation in the tunnels. So changes at Babylon or Jamaica were needed to the electrified cars. Even freight didn't use those tracks even when it was electrified under the Penn RR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted July 12, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 12, 2014 Not enough Dual Modes to spread out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traingoat Posted July 12, 2014 Share #6 Posted July 12, 2014 Big expense those locos and what do you do with the existing motives which have plenty of life still in them. A straight diesel new runs in the area of 2 million. I have no idea what the price of the duals run as we know its more. They don't have the money for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 13, 2014 Share #7 Posted July 13, 2014 Big expense those locos and what do you do with the existing motives which have plenty of life still in them. A straight diesel new runs in the area of 2 million. I have no idea what the price of the duals run as we know its more. They don't have the money for this. The LIRR is already looking into their replacements (since the ones we do have are currently being run into down into the ground) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missabassie Posted July 13, 2014 Share #8 Posted July 13, 2014 ^^ Damn, it's that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted July 13, 2014 Share #9 Posted July 13, 2014 Once ESA is complete, do you think the number of diesel services into Penn will increase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 13, 2014 Share #10 Posted July 13, 2014 Unless things have drastically changed the Montauk line was not electrified and that meant diesel power for motive and you can't take diesels thru the tunnels into Penn station because of it as it was not setup for ventilation of the fumes or forced ventilation in the tunnels. So changes at Babylon or Jamaica were needed to the electrified cars. Even freight didn't use those tracks even when it was electrified under the Penn RR. The LIRR has branches, not lines, but the Montauk Branch is still unelectified east of Babylon. Actually, ventilation improvements to the East River Tunnels means that diesels can be used through the tunnels without any major issues, but all of the interested parties aren't really interested in sending live diesels through the tunnels on a daily basis yet. Freight never went through the tunnels because of the grades. Big expense those locos and what do you do with the existing motives which have plenty of life still in them. A straight diesel new runs in the area of 2 million. I have no idea what the price of the duals run as we know its more. They don't have the money for this. When the LIRR purchased the current diesel fleet in the 1990's, the DE's cost $2.75 million each and the DM's about $3.95 million each. The LIRR is already looking into their replacements (since the ones we do have are currently being run into down into the ground) Replacement of the current DE and DM fleet is scheduled for 2023. They still have some time yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 14, 2014 Share #11 Posted July 14, 2014 I noticed on the schedules that it states from Montauk to Penn have to transfer at Jamaica or Babylon to continue trip. Why is that and not offering on all rides one seat ride. I'm not talking about the cannonball service. I think the reason is that crews based out of Penn Station DON'T operate trains to Montauk. Crews sign up at Morris Park and run the train (in revenue) to Montauk for turn around service. After discharging passengers at LIC, they operate the train as a deadhead back to Jamaica or ride deadhead back to Jamaica where they sign off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 14, 2014 Share #12 Posted July 14, 2014 I think the reason is that crews based out of Penn Station DON'T operate trains to Montauk. Crews sign up at Morris Park and run the train (in revenue) to Montauk for turn around service. After discharging passengers at LIC, they operate the train as a deadhead back to Jamaica or ride deadhead back to Jamaica where they sign off. But that's not a big deal. Deadheading the train back from LIC to Morris Park in the morning is only marginally shorter than deadheading back from NYP to Morris Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 14, 2014 Share #13 Posted July 14, 2014 But that's not a big deal. Deadheading the train back from LIC to Morris Park in the morning is only marginally shorter than deadheading back from NYP to Morris Park. I would assume the issue is the lack of capacity on Penn's tracks. Maybe we'll get some direct trains in once ESA opens in god knows when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 14, 2014 Share #14 Posted July 14, 2014 But that's not a big deal. Deadheading the train back from LIC to Morris Park in the morning is only marginally shorter than deadheading back from NYP to Morris Park. A train can be turned much faster at LIC than at Penn. Also, every train doesn't return to Morris Park. Five trains terminate at LIC. Five train sets don't return to Morris Park. Probably one train set takes all five crews back to Morris Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 14, 2014 Share #15 Posted July 14, 2014 A train can be turned much faster at LIC than at Penn. Also, every train doesn't return to Morris Park. Five trains terminate at LIC. Five train sets don't return to Morris Park. Probably one train set takes all five crews back to Morris Park. Turning a train in LIC is no faster than turning a train in New York. Do you have any factual information to back that up, considering trains turn and burn in NYP every rush hour? And the running time to Long Island City is actually six minutes longer from Jamaica to LIC than New York Penn. A train can run to New York Penn, turn and burn, and get back to Jamaica with 12 minutes to spare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 15, 2014 Share #16 Posted July 15, 2014 Turning a train in LIC is no faster than turning a train in New York. Do you have any factual information to back that up, considering trains turn and burn in NYP every rush hour? And the running time to Long Island City is actually six minutes longer from Jamaica to LIC than New York Penn. A train can run to New York Penn, turn and burn, and get back to Jamaica with 12 minutes to spare... I have a 2002 work assignment book. Some crews begin their day at Morris Park and deadhead to Greenport or Montauk and come west to Hunterspoint or LIC. They finish their day by deadheading to Morris Park. A lot of the equipment stays at LIC. PM crews report at Morris Park and take a deadhead train to LIC to get their equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 15, 2014 Share #17 Posted July 15, 2014 I have a 2002 work assignment book. Some crews begin their day at Morris Park and deadhead to Greenport or Montauk and come west to Hunterspoint or LIC. They finish their day by deadheading to Morris Park. A lot of the equipment stays at LIC. PM crews report at Morris Park and take a deadhead train to LIC to get their equipment. That's neat, but there are no crews deadheading form Jamaica Storage Yard all the way to Greenport on a daily basis. You can literally take every "L. I. City" in that book, white it out, and scribble "Penn Station" in its place and nothing would change crew-wise. The same principle of running to a western terminal and deadheading back would still be just as applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 15, 2014 Share #18 Posted July 15, 2014 That's neat, but there are no crews deadheading form Jamaica Storage Yard all the way to Greenport on a daily basis. You can literally take every "L. I. City" in that book, white it out, and scribble "Penn Station" in its place and nothing would change crew-wise. The same principle of running to a western terminal and deadheading back would still be just as applicable. I double checked. A crew from Ronkonkoma deadheads to Greenport and a crew operates a revenue train to Riverhead. Morris Park crews operate revenue or equipment trains to Montauk, Oyster Bay, Pt Jeff and Huntington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted July 15, 2014 Share #19 Posted July 15, 2014 You are basing your point on a 12 year old book. Lots can change in 12 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 15, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 15, 2014 You are basing your point on a 12 year old book. Lots can change in 12 years. It's more current than anything anybody has. On my way to Gantry Plaza State Park on a weekday afternoon, I noticed about four train sets sitting in LIC so the book can't be completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 15, 2014 Share #21 Posted July 15, 2014 It's more current than anything anybody has. On my way to Gantry Plaza State Park on a weekday afternoon, I noticed about four train sets sitting in LIC so the book can't be completely wrong. Well, I have one and it's much more current. Not much has changed, but you're arguments don't make any sense based off the 2002 book in the first place, and they still don't make any sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 16, 2014 Share #22 Posted July 16, 2014 Well, I have one and it's much more current. Not much has changed, but you're arguments don't make any sense based off the 2002 book in the first place, and they still don't make any sense now. I can't help it that you don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted July 16, 2014 Share #23 Posted July 16, 2014 I can't help it that you don't understand. I understand how the situation actually works just fine--I live out there and ride the train in and out each and every workday. I do not understand the odd arguments you keep coming up with as fake obstacles to such a service. At the end of the day, the demand simply isn't there. All the other obstacles you're dreaming up don't actually exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostalgia Posted July 16, 2014 Share #24 Posted July 16, 2014 I understand how the situation actually works just fine--I live out there and ride the train in and out each and every workday. I do not understand the odd arguments you keep coming up with as fake obstacles to such a service. At the end of the day, the demand simply isn't there. All the other obstacles you're dreaming up don't actually exist. This will my last attempt to explain. First, are you sure there are enough DM diesels at the outlying terminals to operate into Penn? Now, look up Oyster Bay crew base. A crew operates #507 to LIC. My book shows they deadhead on equipment train 4800 to Jamaica. Who operates equipment train 4800? Look up Port Jefferson crew base. A crew operates #611 to LIC and operates 4800 to Jamaica. The OB crew rides equipment train 4800 to Jamaica and leaves #507 equipment at LIC. An afternoon crew will deadhead from Jamaica to LIC and operate the equipment. I can't make it any easier to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4 Via Merrick Rd Posted July 17, 2014 Share #25 Posted July 17, 2014 ^^ Damn, it's that bad?IIRC, They looking for equipment to run a "scoot" service between Babylon and points east from Babylon. I believe in diesel areas in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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