Subway to Co-op City

[RhythmNBlues]

Instead of connecting the Metro North to Co-op City (which is more expensive and makes less stops throughout the borough of Manhattan), why not connect the second avenue line to stop at Einstein Loop?

 

Much cheaper and would probably bring more business to the new mall at Bay Plaza. A win-win for MTA and its riders!!

[Tokkemon]

What's the Einstein Loop?

[bobtehpanda]

Because Metro-North already has tracks in the area?

If any train should be extended to Bay Plaza, that would be the .

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Metro-North doesn't have tracks in that area. Only Amtrak and limited freight train service run through Co-op City. Metro-North joins Amtrak (and takes over dispatching duties on behalf of New York and Connecticut up to New Haven) on the Northeast Corridor a few miles north in New Rochelle. Because Amtrak owns the Corridor south of New Rochelle, running Metro-North commuter rail service in the East Bronx requires their blessing.

 

Extending the to Co-op City might also require the blessings of Amtrak and the Federal Railroad Administration, depending on where in Co-op City the station would be located. An SAS extension, which was proposed by the MTA back in 1968, would certainly require both, given that the subway trains would to run on separate tracks from Amtrak and freight trains.

 

Metro-North service would be the easiest thing to do, construction-wise, because you can just lay down tracks and string wire. You don't have to wait for a brand new subway on the East Side of Manhattan to be built. You'd have to build high-platform stations with elevators, but they wouldn't require turnstiles or having to be staffed 24/7 because fare collection would be done on the train, like on other MNRR trains. You do have to deal with Amtrak's dispatching on the Bronx section of the corridor, plus Harold Interlocking in Queens and track space going into and out of Penn Station.

[CenSin]

Metro-North doesn't have tracks in that area. Only Amtrak and limited freight train service run through Co-op City. Metro-North joins Amtrak (and takes over dispatching duties on behalf of New York and Connecticut up to New Haven) on the Northeast Corridor a few miles north in New Rochelle. Because Amtrak owns the Corridor south of New Rochelle, running Metro-North commuter rail service in the East Bronx requires their blessing.

 

Extending the to Co-op City might also require the blessings of Amtrak and the Federal Railroad Administration, depending on where in Co-op City the station would be located. An SAS extension, which was proposed by the MTA back in 1968, would certainly require both, given that the subway trains would to run on separate tracks from Amtrak and freight trains.

 

Metro-North service would be the easiest thing to do, construction-wise, because you can just lay down tracks and string wire. You don't have to wait for a brand new subway on the East Side of Manhattan to be built. You'd have to build high-platform stations with elevators, but they wouldn't require turnstiles or having to be staffed 24/7 because fare collection would be done on the train, like on other MNRR trains. You do have to deal with Amtrak's dispatching on the Bronx section of the corridor, plus Harold Interlocking in Queens and track space going into and out of Penn Station.

As long as there is no physical impediment to a subway extension, we'll let the politicians work on the legal stuff. Transit planners are more often interested in what can be done sans regulations.

[sovetskii52]

Extending the to Co-op City will be very tough since the Pelham Bay Park station sits perpendicular at the side of I-95 (highway). Making a bridge and everything else elevated further into Co-op City will be very tough. And tough means expensive. Possible changes to the highway and who knows what else. Too many problems. I think taking the Bx12, Bx23, Bx29, Q50 buses is just fine. I live there.

 

@Tokkemon -The Einstein Loop is an area or part of Co-op City. The neighborhood is divided into loops from A to E. And the Einstein Loop aka "Section 5" is one of them.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Extending the to Co-op City will be very tough since the Pelham Bay Park station sits perpendicular at the side of I-95 (highway). Making a bridge and everything else elevated further into Co-op City will be very tough. And tough means expensive. Possible changes to the highway and who knows what else. Too many problems. I think taking the Bx12, Bx23, Bx29, Q50 buses is just fine. I live there.

 

@Tokkemon -The Einstein Loop is an area or part of Co-op City. The neighborhood is divided into loops from A to E. And the Einstein Loop aka "Section 5" is one of them.

Exactly, the current bus service should be good enough as feeders.

[LTA1992]

When the land that Co-Op City sits was still planned to be the site of Curtiss Airport, the Burke Ave extension of the Concourse line as well as the Boston Rd branch of the 2nd Ave line were to terminate there. Baychester Avenue to be exact.

[qjtransitmaster]

Instead of connecting the Metro North to Co-op City (which is more expensive and makes less stops throughout the borough of Manhattan), why not connect the second avenue line to stop at Einstein Loop?

 

Much cheaper and would probably bring more business to the new mall at Bay Plaza. A win-win for MTA and its riders!!

Bx12 got SBS for a reason boss. I have noticed that most SBS routes connect to the MTA railroads LIRR/MNRR. except S79.

[mediccjh]

Actually, the Concourse Line was originally supposed to go to Co-Op City; hence the curve north of Bedford Park Blvd and the strange set-up there. But, of course, NIMBYs and money (or lack thereof) stopped that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Actually, the Concourse Line was originally supposed to go to Co-Op City; hence the curve north of Bedford Park Blvd and the strange set-up there. But, of course, NIMBYs and money (or lack thereof) stopped that.

The thinking was that Co-Op City would have express bus service.  When Co-Op City was built, Jews fleeing the Grand Concourse were moving there in droves, as the Concourse at that time suffered heavily from White flight. The Italians and Irish were also fleeing from the Concourse.  The thinking was that not having the subway would make it isolated and they could maintain a Jewish enclave.  Things didn't work as planned and the Jews eventually fled from Co-Op City IN DROVES and moved to Westchester, Riverdale, Long Island, New Jersey or other parts of the tri-state area, which saw the demographics change considerably in Co-Op City, from heavily white to a population that is heavily black with some Hispanics and very few whites remaining or moving in, so yes NIMBYs and money certainly stopped that.  

 

You have to remember that back in the day, the subway was seen as something that brought crime and urban decay and there is some truth to that particularly in the Bronx. If you look at the good neighborhoods in the Bronx today, they are ALL away from subway lines and rather suburban in feel and appearance, (i.e. Woodlawn, parts of Throggs Neck AWAY from the housing projects), Country Club, Pelham Bay, City Island, etc.) and for the most part was insulated from the urban decay and the literal burning that the Bronx suffered.  In my mind this thinking is still prevalent and why the Bronx has kept a good amount of its express bus service, as some simply refuse to use the subway, as they go through very rough areas in the Bronx.

[Union Tpke]

and moved to Westchester, Riverdale (NYC), Long Island, New Jersey or other parts of the tri-state area, 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

and moved to Westchester, Riverdale (NYC), Long Island, New Jersey or other parts of the tri-state area, 

 

What was the point of that?  Obviously Riverdale is in NYC... If I was talking about Riverdale, NJ I would've stated so. 

[bobtehpanda]

The thinking was that Co-Op City would have express bus service.  When Co-Op City was built, Jews fleeing the Grand Concourse were moving there in droves, as the Concourse at that time suffered heavily from White flight. The Italians and Irish were also fleeing from the Concourse.  The thinking was that not having the subway would make it isolated and they could maintain a Jewish enclave.  Things didn't work as planned and the Jews eventually fled from Co-Op City IN DROVES and moved to Westchester, Riverdale, Long Island, New Jersey or other parts of the tri-state area, which saw the demographics change considerably in Co-Op City, from heavily white to a population that is heavily black with some Hispanics and very few whites remaining or moving in, so yes NIMBYs and money certainly stopped that.  

 

You have to remember that back in the day, the subway was seen as something that brought crime and urban decay and there is some truth to that particularly in the Bronx. If you look at the good neighborhoods in the Bronx today, they are ALL away from subway lines and rather suburban in feel and appearance, (i.e. Woodlawn, parts of Throggs Neck AWAY from the housing projects), Country Club, Pelham Bay, City Island, etc.) and for the most part was insulated from the urban decay and the literal burning that the Bronx suffered.  In my mind this thinking is still prevalent and why the Bronx has kept a good amount of its express bus service, as some simply refuse to use the subway, as they go through very rough areas in the Bronx.

 

Keep in mind that, even around the '50s, expansion of the subway was not viewed as a universally awful thing. The area was first planned for a subway extension due to the proposed Curtiss Airport on the site, which would've seen the extended, depending on what year the plan was being thrown around, either along Burke Av, Burke Av and Boston Rd, or along what is now the Dyre Av Line to Co-op City. Even as late as the '70s and '80s, the area was projected to be served by an extension of the , but that just never happened due to the fiscal crisis and lack of money. There wasn't any large-scale opposition to subway expansion even back then.

 

Express bus service has always, in the case of Co-op City been a band-aid solution.

[Juelz4309]

I see oppurtunity to kill two birds with one stone...I drew it out on a copy of A bronx bus map way back when... Stops as follows...South To North Pending A connection from the 2 ave subway at 125 Street.(2040-50) ...

 

3 Tracks For Bi-Directional Service As The Others

 

3 Ave/138 St -6 EXP

149 St- 2/5 EXP

163 St

168 St

Claremont Pkway

174 St

E Tremont Ave EXP

183/St Barnabas Hosp

Fordham Plaza/Webster Ave- Metro North EXP

Bedford Pk Blvd/Webster Ave

 

3 Tracks Merge Into 2 And Then Merge With a 2 track extension of the D From 205 st

Both Services Head North (under webster ave) then Curve EAST. under Gun Hill Rd

 

White Plains Rd/Gun Hill -2/5

Bronxwood/gun hill

Boston/gun hill

Seymour/gun hill -5

 

Then curve EAST onto Bartow Avenue for two final stops

 

Gunther Ave/Bartow

Asch Loop/Bay Plaza/Co-Op City

 

This Is Clearly One Expensive Undertaking I would say 5-10 Billion But wud solve the problem of subway access to the middle bronx and of course Co-Op City!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Keep in mind that, even around the '50s, expansion of the subway was not viewed as a universally awful thing. The area was first planned for a subway extension due to the proposed Curtiss Airport on the site, which would've seen the extended, depending on what year the plan was being thrown around, either along Burke Av, Burke Av and Boston Rd, or along what is now the Dyre Av Line to Co-op City. Even as late as the '70s and '80s, the area was projected to be served by an extension of the , but that just never happened due to the fiscal crisis and lack of money. There wasn't any large-scale opposition to subway expansion even back then.

 

Express bus service has always, in the case of Co-op City been a band-aid solution.

Yeah but we're not talking universally speaking.  We're talking about specific areas of the Bronx and what was happening at that time.  Like I said the Jews still left in droves so things didn't work out as planned. lol The idea was that they were escaping an urban area that was very accessible and moving to an area that wasn't as accessible and more remote.

[LTA1992]

Actually, the Concourse Line was originally supposed to go to Co-Op City; hence the curve north of Bedford Park Blvd and the strange set-up there. But, of course, NIMBYs and money (or lack thereof) stopped that.

Co-Op City's land was originally planned to be an airport. The Concourse and 2nd Avenue lines would have served it as well as the WNY&B and New Haven railroad lines. There were two things that kept that from happening. The Deppression and that the sites for North Beach (LGA) and New York International ( JFK ) airports were found to be better locations.