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MTA Capital Plan Calls for New Stops in Bronx and Penn Station


realizm

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The Metropolitan Transportation Authority wants to add four Metro-North Railroad stations in the Bronx and extend the commuter line into Penn Station—even though it doesn't know how it will pay for $15.2 billion of $32 billion worth of construction and repair projects over the next five years.

"Penn Station Access" has long been on the drawing board, but the authority's capital plan—due for unveiling Wednesday—calls for tackling the project, according to documents the MTA posted on its website.

"The expansion of Metro-North service to the East Bronx has the potential to transform not just the Bronx, but the entire region," said Bronx Borough President Ruben Diaz Jr. , a supporter of the project. "The end result is an improved quality of life for the Bronx, along with increasing real-estate values."

Under the plan, Metro-North's New Haven line—it currently serves Grand Central Terminal—would use tracks already in use by Amtrak trains heading to Boston. It would involve constructing Metro-North stations in areas with relatively few mass transit options: Hunts Point, Parkchester, Morris Park and Co-op City.

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I don't know why they would build a station in Hunts Point though.  It's not as if the fare is going to be the price of the subway.  Folks living there can barely afford the bus or subway, so how are they going to be able to afford $8.25 one way (soon to be more next year and even more in 2017) to get there, not including the fare for additional connections?  That's exactly why several Metro-North stations in the Bronx have low ridership. If you look at stations like University Heights, Morris Heights, Melrose and Tremont, they all have low ridership and are in some of the poorest neighborhoods not only in New York, but in the entire country.  Meanwhile the (MTA) heavily campaigns in affluent neighborhoods like Riverdale which has two Metro-North stations, where Metro-North usage continues to increase along with increased service.

 

It will be a waste of money to build these stations if the residents can't afford the fare.  I think they should only build a few stations. Morris Park would be obvious,given the presence of Montefiore and Albert Einstein with lots of doctors and medical staff being able to afford the higher fares in addition to the Morris Park residents. Co-Op City could be used by residents from City Island and Pelham Bay should the folks in Co-Op City not use it or not be able to afford it.  I say this because express bus usage has been steadily falling on the BxM7.  The area is basically working class so if they can't afford the express bus then they won't be using Metro-North in large numbers.  Parkchester is also iffy... Ridership on the BxM6 is ok at best.

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I don't know why they would build a station in Hunts Point though.  It's not as if the fare is going to be the price of the subway.  Folks living there can barely afford the bus or subway, so how are they going to be able to afford $8.25 one way (soon to be more next year and even more in 2017) to get there, not including the fare for additional connections?  That's exactly why several Metro-North stations in the Bronx have low ridership. If you look at stations like University Heights, Morris Heights, Melrose and Tremont, they all have low ridership and are in some of the poorest neighborhoods not only in New York, but in the entire country.  Meanwhile the (MTA) heavily campaigns in affluent neighborhoods like Riverdale which has two Metro-North stations, where Metro-North usage continues to increase along with increased service.

 

It will be a waste of money to build these stations if the residents can't afford the fare.  I think they should only build a few stations. Morris Park would be obvious,given the presence of Montefiore and Albert Einstein with lots of doctors and medical staff being able to afford the higher fares in addition to the Morris Park residents. Co-Op City could be used by residents from City Island and Pelham Bay should the folks in Co-Op City not use it or not be able to afford it.  I say this because express bus usage has been steadily falling on the BxM7.  The area is basically working class so if they can't afford the express bus then they won't be using Metro-North in large numbers.  Parkchester is also iffy... Ridership on the BxM6 is ok at best.

Gentrification is why there putting stations in the South Bronx, its slowly starting there sadly, I'd think they want to avoid the (6) train having the overcrowding problems the (L) line has so they putting a MN station there is not a bad idea.

 

As for the other planned stations, if those SE Queens LIRR stations get decent ridership I don't see any reason why Parkchester and Co Op City wouldn't, this service would be far more reliable than the express bus and is not vulnerable to traffic and light winter weather, I remember one slushy morning crippled the bus system here but the trains ran fine.

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The amount of money proposed to essentially connect Penn Station and Grand Central, between ESA and this potential new plan, is ridiculous. The 2 stations aren't even that far apart! And where are they going to put all these Metro North trains in Penn Station, which is a zoo as it is?? I'd prefer to see this money spent elsewhere. 

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The amount of money proposed to essentially connect Penn Station and Grand Central, between ESA and this potential new plan, is ridiculous. The 2 stations aren't even that far apart! And where are they going to put all these Metro North trains in Penn Station, which is a zoo as it is?? I'd prefer to see this money spent elsewhere. 

2nd Avenue Subway maybe?

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Gentrification is why there putting stations in the South Bronx, its slowly starting there sadly, I'd think they want to avoid the (6) train having the overcrowding problems the (L) line has so they putting a MN station there is not a bad idea.

 

As for the other planned stations, if those SE Queens LIRR stations get decent ridership I don't see any reason why Parkchester and Co Op City wouldn't, this service would be far more reliable than the express bus and is not vulnerable to traffic and light winter weather, I remember one slushy morning crippled the bus system here but the trains ran fine.

You mean station as in Hunts Point.  To my knowledge, Hunts Point is not gentrifying, but areas like Mott Haven are slowly, as well as parts of the Concourse.  For the Concourse there's already the Metro-North station by Yankee Stadium.  I don't see Hunts Point gentrifying anytime soon.  That area has been infamous for its drugs and prostitution problems for years and it's still a pretty run down extremely poor neighborhood to my knowledge, so I'm not sure who would be using that station. As for SE Queens, what is your definition of "decent usage"?  Most of the residents there are running to the local bus to get to the subway.  Given the location of the LIRR stations in SE Queens, they're not exactly convenient to get to in some cases, so even when you take the cost factor out of it, the location of these stations in the Bronx should be well thought out.  I know Metro-North is a commuter railroad, but some stations are a royal PITA to get to unless you have a car and it shouldn't be that way in the city.  Ironically I can walk to both Metro-North stations in Riverdale despite them being so isolated along with the steep hills, but I only do that when I want a little exercise on the weekends or late nights when I don't mind walking to or from my apartment.  That is not something that I would be doing regularly though to get to or from work.

 

The amount of money proposed to essentially connect Penn Station and Grand Central, between ESA and this potential new plan, is ridiculous. The 2 stations aren't even that far apart! And where are they going to put all these Metro North trains in Penn Station, which is a zoo as it is?? I'd prefer to see this money spent elsewhere. 

I agree... 32 billion dollars is insane.  Supposedly when the LIRR comes into Grand Central that will free up some space and move some passengers to the East Side, which would then give Metro-North some room to run trains there.

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I agree... 32 billion dollars is insane.  Supposedly when the LIRR comes into Grand Central that will free up some space and move some passengers to the East Side, which would then give Metro-North some room to run trains there.

Which of course means that Penn Station will still end up just as packed, just now there will be a whole different division thrown into the mix lol

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You mean station as in Hunts Point.  To my knowledge, Hunts Point is not gentrifying, but areas like Mott Haven are slowly, as well as parts of the Concourse.  For the Concourse there's already the Metro-North station by Yankee Stadium.  I don't see Hunts Point gentrifying anytime soon.  That area has been infamous for its drugs and prostitution problems for years and it's still a pretty run down extremely poor neighborhood to my knowledge, so I'm not sure who would be using that station. As for SE Queens, what is your definition of "decent usage"?  Most of the residents there are running to the local bus to get to the subway.  Given the location of the LIRR stations in SE Queens, they're not exactly convenient to get to in some cases, so even when you take the cost factor out of it, the location of these stations in the Bronx should be well thought out.  I know Metro-North is a commuter railroad, but some stations are a royal PITA to get to unless you have a car and it shouldn't be that way in the city.  Ironically I can walk to both Metro-North stations in Riverdale despite them being so isolated along with the steep hills, but I only do that when I want a little exercise on the weekends or late nights when I don't mind walking to or from my apartment.  That is not something that I would be doing regularly though to get to or from work.

 

I agree... 32 billion dollars is insane.  Supposedly when the LIRR comes into Grand Central that will free up some space and move some passengers to the East Side, which would then give Metro-North some room to run trains there.

 

You do realize Metro-north has a high demand for reverse commuters to CT and Westchester county right. And fares to Westchester are quite low from the bronx. Plus this project is meant to attack the clusterf**k that is I-95.

Gentrification is why there putting stations in the South Bronx, its slowly starting there sadly, I'd think they want to avoid the (6) train having the overcrowding problems the (L) line has so they putting a MN station there is not a bad idea.

 

As for the other planned stations, if those SE Queens LIRR stations get decent ridership I don't see any reason why Parkchester and Co Op City wouldn't, this service would be far more reliable than the express bus and is not vulnerable to traffic and light winter weather, I remember one slushy morning crippled the bus system here but the trains ran fine.

You do realize metro north in the bronx has a large reverse commuter travel base that needs to get to work in places in CT or Westchester county.

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I don't know why they would build a station in Hunts Point though.  It's not as if the fare is going to be the price of the subway.  Folks living there can barely afford the bus or subway, so how are they going to be able to afford $8.25 one way (soon to be more next year and even more in 2017) to get there, not including the fare for additional connections?  That's exactly why several Metro-North stations in the Bronx have low ridership. If you look at stations like University Heights, Morris Heights, Melrose and Tremont, they all have low ridership and are in some of the poorest neighborhoods not only in New York, but in the entire country.  Meanwhile the (MTA) heavily campaigns in affluent neighborhoods like Riverdale which has two Metro-North stations, where Metro-North usage continues to increase along with increased service.

 

It will be a waste of money to build these stations if the residents can't afford the fare.  I think they should only build a few stations. Morris Park would be obvious,given the presence of Montefiore and Albert Einstein with lots of doctors and medical staff being able to afford the higher fares in addition to the Morris Park residents. Co-Op City could be used by residents from City Island and Pelham Bay should the folks in Co-Op City not use it or not be able to afford it.  I say this because express bus usage has been steadily falling on the BxM7.  The area is basically working class so if they can't afford the express bus then they won't be using Metro-North in large numbers.  Parkchester is also iffy... Ridership on the BxM6 is ok at best.

 

Most of the Penn Station Access project is meant to enhance reverse commuting, since most stations in the Bronx already serve a large amount of reverse commuters. In fact, Metro-North is the largest reverse-commute commuter railroad in the country.

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Sunnyside is in Long Island. This topic has to do with Metro North access to NYP with Bronx stops along the way.

still, it is on the way. It provides access to Westchester and the Bronx without going through the hassel to Manhattan, service is needed in Sunnyside.

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still, it is on the way. It provides access to Westchester and the Bronx without going through the hassel to Manhattan, service is needed in Sunnyside.

 

Presumably, any such station would be built as part of ESA, which is why it isn't included in the project scope. It will definitely exist by the time PSA starts up and running.

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Sunnyside is in Long Island. This topic has to do with Metro North access to NYP with Bronx stops along the way.

 

Truckie, a few months back I asked about whether Metro North could use Amtrak tracks to get to Penn Station and you mentioned that there was an issue with Metro North having the wrong type of equipment and lack of training for using that trackage. How would this plan affect those issues? Will Metro North need to buy new equipment for this to work? 

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Truckie, a few months back I asked about whether Metro North could use Amtrak tracks to get to Penn Station and you mentioned that there was an issue with Metro North having the wrong type of equipment and lack of training for using that trackage. How would this plan affect those issues? Will Metro North need to buy new equipment for this to work? 

 

I thought the M8 were capable of running through the Hell Gate.

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Currently they can not.

So much for your claims that we didn't need our increased service. I've been using Metro-North on the weekdays and weekends, and ridership at the Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil stations are doing just fine.  :P  I was especially surprised at the ridership at the Riverdale/Wave Hill station.  Very impressive.  Are those man-made "platforms" temporary on the Westchester side or what? I always get off at Spuyten Duyvil going Northbound due to the steep hills at the Riverdale station but I prefer the Riverdale station going to the city as the walk is closer to my apartment.

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Well I found this great little gem in the capital program pdf

 

on Page 10:

"In addition, Metro-North will develop specifications for Dual Mode Locomotives and Mulit-level coaches for diesel territory coach and locomotive replacement and ridership growth and potential use for Penn Station access"

 

My interpretation of this is they will use some of these DM locos for service from NHL to Penn to get around incompatible equipment if I'm reading that right. Metro north spent how much to electrifying NHL? It's a step backward.

 

Wouldn't third rail incompatibility still be an issue?  Assuming that the new DM locos would be used both on the NHL and other other lines like the Harlem Line.

 

This whole process would have been solved had Metro north bought the m-8's with the ability to handle the different voltages of the nhl and amtrak tracks.

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Well I found this great little gem in the capital program pdf

 

on Page 10:

"In addition, Metro-North will develop specifications for Dual Mode Locomotives and Mulit-level coaches for diesel territory coach and locomotive replacement and ridership growth and potential use for Penn Station access"

 

My interpretation of this is they will use some of these DM locos for service from NHL to Penn to get around incompatible equipment if I'm reading that right. Metro north spent how much to electrifying NHL? It's a step backward.

 

Wouldn't third rail incompatibility still be an issue?  Assuming that the new DM locos would be used both on the NHL and other other lines like the Harlem Line.

 

This whole process would have been solved had Metro north bought the m-8's with the ability to handle the different voltages of the nhl and amtrak tracks.

 

If the trains can use catenary all the way to Penn, that's not an issue since Amtrak already does that. It could mean that they're trying to bring direct city access to the Danbury and Waterbury branches.

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Well I found this great little gem in the capital program pdf

 

on Page 10:

"In addition, Metro-North will develop specifications for Dual Mode Locomotives and Mulit-level coaches for diesel territory coach and locomotive replacement and ridership growth and potential use for Penn Station access"

 

My interpretation of this is they will use some of these DM locos for service from NHL to Penn to get around incompatible equipment if I'm reading that right. Metro north spent how much to electrifying NHL? It's a step backward.

 

Wouldn't third rail incompatibility still be an issue? Assuming that the new DM locos would be used both on the NHL and other other lines like the Harlem Line.

 

This whole process would have been solved had Metro north bought the m-8's with the ability to handle the different voltages of the nhl and amtrak tracks.

With what money?

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With what money?

Those Locomotives need to be replaced anyway, but most of the revenue locos were refurbished fairly recently. By the time ESA and this project get done, it would be time to replace those locomotives, and some of the coaches need to be replaced like yesterday.

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This whole process would have been solved had Metro north bought the m-8's with the ability to handle the different voltages of the nhl and amtrak tracks.

I'm sure Metro North (or CDOT) hadn't thought about running M8's to NYP close to 10 years after the design of them.

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