Higher Subway Ridership Translates to Longer Wait Times

[realizm]

 

If you've noticed you're waiting longer for the subway, you're not alone. Ridership is growing, and that means longer on the platform—but the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is devising ways to address the problem. NY1's Jose Martinez filed the following report.

It's a big city that's getting bigger, with more than a million people expected to move here over the next 20 years.

With subway ridership at its highest levels in more than half a century, what's the transit system to do?

"We will be in deep doo-dads if we are not in a position to give people the kind of service that they expect," says Charles Moerdler.

New Metropolitan Transportation Authority statistics show that on weekdays, riders are waiting longer for trains on every line except the N, Q and R.

"You can only fit so many sardines in a sardine can. We've reached that point. And we'll reach it beyond the breaking point in the not too distant future."

Annual ridership last year shot up to 1.7 billion for the first time since 1949, a number likely to keep rising.

 

Read more: Source

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They should be finding ways to not force everyone into the subway too.  That's the other problem.  Many people are ditching buses and other transit alternatives and running to the subway which isn't that much better but still a tad better.  

[realizm]

They need to provide more service definitely. They do have a slight surplus of cars on each division (A and B) to do so, I am sure. Problems can range from limitations of the capacity of a line, or money for payroll expenses. 

 

The F for example. They definetly can shorten headways on the F weekends. But they dont want to be bothered with payroll costs to pay for additional train crews. Thats the problem.

Waiting for longer trains with the exception of the N and R? Where does the reporter gets their info from? The N and R can be ridiculously delayed I dont know what in the world they are talking about.

[bstar1]

Subway provides a faster commute than to deal with traffic on the streets its not the MTA fault for the numbers of people in NYC, they do the best they can to provide service as possible. They have more than enough trains everyday.

[LTA1992]

If only that 1940s plan for the SAS, with 6-tracks, connections to 8 seperate Brooklyn branches, with service to The Bronx and Queens was a reality. That could have solved the problem. Mostly. This current SAS won't cut it. The man who came up with the plan said it perefectly. "We do not need new extensions to outlying areas yet. What we need is a new trunk line to relieve congestion on the older Manhattan trunk lines". A two track "rich mans express" will not acheve that job. Not now, not ever. I see that 1st Avenue subway proposal coming back around in another 50 years...

[Tokkemon]

Four letters: C-B-T-C

[trainfan22]

This city is bursting at the stems with its current population, how is a extra million people gonna live here on ON TOP of the current population?

 

As for the N and R not making the list... well for years now, I have always seen the N and R lines joking referred to as "Rarely" and "Never" whenever it is that causes delays to these routes must not be overcrowding.

 

And the local bus system is bursting at the stems in many places as well, especially when school is open in the AM Rush, I'm sure flagging is common in all four outer boroughs, its too bad drivers don't always press the button on the FB whenever someone gets flagged so we'll never truly know how bad the situation is really is. There is even a article posted about the Q58 being overcrowded in the AM Rush a while back.

 

 

[MysteriousBtrain]

With the   and the only lines not having delays, BIGGEST LIE I HAVE EVER HEARD. I'm pretty sure the BMT Broadway line gets delayed, especially north of 34 Street.

 

Four letters: C-B-T-C

The already has it and the is next, so at least we are getting somewhere with that....

[SubwayGuy]

Four letters: C-B-T-C

 

All CBTC does is allow overcrowded trains to get very close to each other. It does nothing to reduce station dwell times as people board trains, hold doors, and obstruct doorways with crowding. It also doesn't address terminal capacity, and is unproven at interlining. When it fails, it fails catastrophically, with entire corridors having no service at all. It is also software based and updating a huge system like NYCT would be extremely difficult because of the short life span of technology - future CBTC contracts will be incompatible with current ones. Even the system set up for the 7 is different than the one currently in use on the L. With interlining, everything must be compatible. There are numerous shortcomings with this.

 

Buses in high ridership corridors are extremely inefficient (even Select Bus), and believe it or not, in the long run, more expensive to run than subways. They are popular with the politician crowd because they have very low startup costs, and thus can be set up within the election cycle so the politician can boast of accomplishing something.

 

The things that they need to be talking about are:

-Lengthening trains (C train should have been 10 cars already) and, where possible, stations.

-Building new corridors (2nd Avenue is a start, but as a 2 track line it will prove to be quite underplanned). Side note: What would really be fun? Putting up new elevated lines. We'd never see it, but it would be a much cheaper way to expand the rail network.

-Stopping with this nonsense "move everyone ever into New York to increase the tax base" mentality. Seriously, it's just stupid. We have a gigantic country with a TON of unused, or underutilized land, and everyone wants to cram into the same 34 mile perimeter island to either live or work. New York City had this problem in the late 1800s when all the transportation was streetcars and horses, and everything was downtown, and the solution was to build the elevated system to move the traffic off the streets. Later adding the subway system to move trains underground to avoid losing service in severe inclement weather. Moving more people in may increase the tax base, but it also increases the stresses on the system already in place, raises prices, dislocates more longtime residents who may even become homeless as a result, and therefore increases the demand on forms of public assistance which keeps those people here because less urban areas don't have the same level of social services.

 

At minimum, what should be done in the next 50 years is:

-Full length 2nd Avenue subway with provision for expansion to the Bronx.

-Possible expansion of the D line from current terminal at 205 St. to original planned terminal in the Gun Hill Road / Burke Ave. area (with a proper terminal with a crew room to eliminate the need for a relay, or the need to use Bedford Park as the terminal)

-Rebuild and reactivate the Rockaway Beach branch. Rockaway Park Shuttle becomes a full length route serving unserved areas in Eastern Queens, connecting to the IND Queens Blvd. Line. This also provides a way to certain areas in eastern Queens from northern Queens that avoids the congestion of either Parsons-Archer, or Manhattan. Another possible way to do this would be to connect this line to Queens Blvd. and the "G" train at Court Sq. That gets you full length trains along the Crosstown line (which doesn't need it now, but might in 50 years) and also makes it a connector route on both ends, sort of like a double shuttle, to get people in underserved areas to and from existing trunk lines.

-Studies for additional trunk lines in Queens.

-Studies for a crosstown subway route in the Bronx, possibly one that can become a "far west side" trunk line in Manhattan.

 

If these aren't looked at in the next 50 years, the problem will only get worse in the most heavily crowded parts of the system. As in some third world countries, riding the system will become unsafe due to the crowding.

[RollOver]

"Long" waits for every line in the system? Pity.

 

Isn't the not frequent? Don't the 3 number lines mention run 12 trains per hour during middays/evenings? And don't the 3 lettered lines mention run 10 trains per hour during middays/evenings? And that's "long" for them?

 

BTW - Jose Martinez probably got his info about the all wrong anyway. Mistakes can happen. No big deal.

[Roadcruiser1]

Or instead of trying to make the Second Avenue Subway a trunk line we build a second subway line on the West Side of Manhattan. We also know that both the Seventh, and Eighth Avenue Lines are crowded, and the best thing to do is to dig a new West Side Line. The , Extension is not really helpful since it's so short. We need something like a Tenth Avenue Subway that runs from Dyckman Street to 23rd Street before going crosstown, and going somewhere in Brooklyn while construction a Tenth Avenue Station, and extending the , to 14th Street to connect to the .

[realizm]

I just read that we are facing a 15.2 billion dollar shortfall that the MTA might try to counteract by means of cutting back on infracture improvement and by raising tolls on the bridges. So at this point such proposals to extend the network might not help because we are facing a monsterous deficit more so then the doomsday cuts that hit us leading to cuts in service as well as a raise in the anticipated fare hikes to come next year, back to 7%.

[SubwayGuy]

The MTA will always be unprofitable. This is why it's publicly funded. It's run at a loss to provide an affordable service (vs. one that is not affordable) that is an enabler for the entire regional economy, subsidized by government to cover shortfalls so it can continue providing an affordable service.

 

The problem with this model is not its design, but its implementation. You don't see much political posting out of me on here anymore, largely because most people are too stupid to understand the things I'm saying when it relates to government, but the incompetence in government spills over into transportation and is represented in its underfunding, and the looting of "dedicated transit funds" to cover budgetary shortfalls and other levels of incompetence from City Hall, to Albany, to Washington DC.

 

Providing public transit service hasn't been profitable since the turn of the 20th Century. It will never be. If it is, you're charging too much, and providing transit only for the wealthy as a luxury service. Think car services, taxis, or even 19th century omnibuses, or first class service on long distance steam railroads back when they were private companies too.

 

So what? There's no money. There really never was. You have to find money. Stop with the corporate tax breaks, and tax breaks for the wealthy, and stop funneling money into a never ending black hole that is *certain* social services while enforcing a fair minimum wage that is actually livable. No one who works a full time job - ANY full time job - should be struggling to make rent.

 

28 stations opened in a little over 4 years of construction that went all during all hours from 1900-1904. Even without the night noise, work performed at a similar pace should take no more than 10 years from start to completion, yet here we are almost 8 years into SAS construction for 3 stations on a 2 track line (not 4 as most of the original IRT was), still not finished, and years into a Flushing line extension of 1 station, still not open. All the political grandstanding and managerial incompetence in the world, not limited to Transit is failing. It's not just failing the region's transportation needs, it's failing the entire country. While we sit around and debate whether or not gay people should be married, and weight the pros and cons of letting illegal immigrants free into cultural institutions, our citizens, and nationalized citizens continue to do without so we can send foreign aid around the world to promote an agenda of "freedom" and "democracy" while we really only enjoy the illusions of such.

 

All the efforts you see, to "close the gap" of cutting services, delaying long overdue improvements, raising tolls, and making it more difficult to get around, or adding more layers of regulations and red tape - are just a way of passing the burden of supporting what's already there - NOT IMPROVING IT - onto the people who use the service, which is basically what the for profit private companies did (sans raising the fare, since they were legally not allowed to) in the 1920s and 1930s that ultimately led to their takeover by the city. It's a model that time and similar happenings in every other major city in North America, have shown will fail. The problem is no one bails out the government. If government makes the same mistakes private industry did, then the system becomes unsafe, prone to failing or closure, and even in extreme cases of urban decay (cities like Detroit) outright closure or abandonment. I'm not saying you will see those things in New York, but you might in 100 years if the economy collapses at some point between now and then which is still possible given that government has basically bought a recovery with the Federal Reserve's printing press, doing wonders for the real value of your bank accounts.

 

If we do not change our discourse to reflect the level of government's incompetence in this discussion, it will be lost and missed again. Saying that a poorly designed computerized signal system (at least for NYCT's needs) with numerous failings, shortcomings, and an extremely short timeline before it is made more obsolescent by a similar version using newer software, is an incredible oversimplification that fails to look at the depth and breadth of the crisis in leadership in America today.

 

Everything is slowly falling apart today, and the people that we've chosen to LEAD - to figure out, solve, and take us into a brighter future - are too busy pointing fingers at each other, and paying back their friends that helped them get elected. They are too busy doing that to do the job they were chosen to do in the first place. They have forgotten that getting elected is not the goal, doing a good job is. And the congratulations start when you come out of office having accomplished something, not just because you came into office. Our "representative" government does not represent all walks off life because of the economic barriers to entry into politics. Our poor are not represented. Pretty much anyone who makes less than $100,000 a year is not represented, in any shape or form.

 

Meanwhile the people who actually have the skills and knowledge to lead are too busy being career worker bees tasked with the implementation of their failed policies, trying to make do with the scraps that they are fed. Maybe they lack the persona, the willingness, or the politicking to get elected, but they have the skills. Those being elected often have no knowledge of the areas they are tasked with major decisions that concern.

 

Until the blame is laid at government, their backwards deals exposed, their criminal grabassery leading to jail time and the loss of all their personal fortunes, as they are shamed and jailed, and replaced by competent, honest people, the incompetence will continue unchecked. Everywhere.

[Union Tpke]

I agree with subway guy. The E can accommodate 11 car trains. They should work on lengthening platforms. Then should also look if it is needed to rearrange the inside of subway cars. They should look into extending the BMT Eastern lengths, not sure if it is possible. Also, fix terminals by adding more crossovers, moving them closer to the station, adding tail tracks.

[bobtehpanda]

Or instead of trying to make the Second Avenue Subway a trunk line we build a second subway line on the West Side of Manhattan. We also know that both the Seventh, and Eighth Avenue Lines are crowded, and the best thing to do is to dig a new West Side Line. The , Extension is not really helpful since it's so short. We need something like a Tenth Avenue Subway that runs from Dyckman Street to 23rd Street before going crosstown, and going somewhere in Brooklyn while construction a Tenth Avenue Station, and extending the , to 14th Street to connect to the .

 

To relieve system overcrowding, the SAS is infinitely more important than a line serving the FWS. Lexington Av already handles more riders than every other transit system in the nation, and the East Side bus lines are much more crowded than the West Side ones.

 

Should we look at a FWS line? Maybe once we get everything done. But the following is all we need:

 

• Extension of the SAS west to 125/Broadway.
• Extension of SAS north via Webster Av, Third Av, or the MNRR ROW to Gun Hill Rd on the , following either the Bx41 or Bx55 routes.
• Extension of SAS south to the Fulton local via Court St.
• A Queens Blvd Bypass utilizing the LIRR Main Line ROW between 21st St-Queensbridge and Forest Hills.

 

This kind of expansion would give us a necessary backbone to finally extend the subway to points east in Queens and south in Brooklyn. Until then the core is too overcrowded to accommodate outer expansion.

[Wallyhorse]

To relieve system overcrowding, the SAS is infinitely more important than a line serving the FWS. Lexington Av already handles more riders than every other transit system in the nation, and the East Side bus lines are much more crowded than the West Side ones.

 

Should we look at a FWS line? Maybe once we get everything done. But the following is all we need:

 

• Extension of the SAS west to 125/Broadway.
• Extension of SAS north via Webster Av, Third Av, or the MNRR ROW to Gun Hill Rd on the , following either the Bx41 or Bx55 routes.
• Extension of SAS south to the Fulton local via Court St.
• A Queens Blvd Bypass utilizing the LIRR Main Line ROW between 21st St-Queensbridge and Forest Hills.

 

This kind of expansion would give us a necessary backbone to finally extend the subway to points east in Queens and south in Brooklyn. Until then the core is too overcrowded to accommodate outer expansion.

I like ALL of the above:

 

Connecting the SAS to the Fulton Street Line (turning the Transit Museum station BACK into one for active service) could prove a BIG game-changer, especially with Brooklyn likely to become more and more built up and the Fulton Street line area a prime one to see a lot of that build up over the next 20-30 years.  As noted, if that is done, the can become the Fulton Street local to Euclid (extended overnights to Lefferts to eliminate that shuttle) while the can serve Far Rockaway AND Rockaway Park (most likely on something like an 8-5 split during peak periods and otherwise more heavily favoring Far Rockaway, eliminating the Rockaway Park while the is also an express in Brooklyn to Lefferts. 

 

I've very much noted that I would be looking to have an SAS line also go all the way across 125th Street going to 12th Avenue-Broadway and connect to every other line on 125 (plus have a connection to the 8th Avenue line to allow for mainly G.O.'s and Yankee Stadium Specials as needed but also to allow for potentially a Concourse line via the SAS in the future if warranted).

 

A Bronx portion of the SAS possibly over a rebuilt Bronx Third Avenue El (or subway) terminating at Gun Hill Road like the old line once did (and fewer stations than the old line) with provisions to allow for both such a line running from Gun Hill Road across 125 to 12th Avenue-Broadway AND a future rebuild of the Manhattan 3rd Avenue El that would join the SAS in The Bronx (and most likely via a portal on the north end also across 125 if that ever got built).

 

The QB bypass also is well needed, especially if it allowed for increased capacity along the QB line.

[m7zanr160s]

All CBTC does is allow overcrowded trains to get very close to each other. It does nothing to reduce station dwell times as people board trains, hold doors, and obstruct doorways with crowding. It also doesn't address terminal capacity, and is unproven at interlining. When it fails, it fails catastrophically, with entire corridors having no service at all. It is also software based and updating a huge system like NYCT would be extremely difficult because of the short life span of technology - future CBTC contracts will be incompatible with current ones. Even the system set up for the 7 is different than the one currently in use on the L. With interlining, everything must be compatible. There are numerous shortcomings with this.

 

Buses in high ridership corridors are extremely inefficient (even Select Bus), and believe it or not, in the long run, more expensive to run than subways. They are popular with the politician crowd because they have very low startup costs, and thus can be set up within the election cycle so the politician can boast of accomplishing something.

 

The things that they need to be talking about are:

-Lengthening trains (C train should have been 10 cars already) and, where possible, stations.

-Building new corridors (2nd Avenue is a start, but as a 2 track line it will prove to be quite underplanned). Side note: What would really be fun? Putting up new elevated lines. We'd never see it, but it would be a much cheaper way to expand the rail network.

-Stopping with this nonsense "move everyone ever into New York to increase the tax base" mentality. Seriously, it's just stupid. We have a gigantic country with a TON of unused, or underutilized land, and everyone wants to cram into the same 34 mile perimeter island to either live or work. New York City had this problem in the late 1800s when all the transportation was streetcars and horses, and everything was downtown, and the solution was to build the elevated system to move the traffic off the streets. Later adding the subway system to move trains underground to avoid losing service in severe inclement weather. Moving more people in may increase the tax base, but it also increases the stresses on the system already in place, raises prices, dislocates more longtime residents who may even become homeless as a result, and therefore increases the demand on forms of public assistance which keeps those people here because less urban areas don't have the same level of social services.

 

At minimum, what should be done in the next 50 years is:

-Full length 2nd Avenue subway with provision for expansion to the Bronx.

-Possible expansion of the D line from current terminal at 205 St. to original planned terminal in the Gun Hill Road / Burke Ave. area (with a proper terminal with a crew room to eliminate the need for a relay, or the need to use Bedford Park as the terminal)

-Rebuild and reactivate the Rockaway Beach branch. Rockaway Park Shuttle becomes a full length route serving unserved areas in Eastern Queens, connecting to the IND Queens Blvd. Line. This also provides a way to certain areas in eastern Queens from northern Queens that avoids the congestion of either Parsons-Archer, or Manhattan. Another possible way to do this would be to connect this line to Queens Blvd. and the "G" train at Court Sq. That gets you full length trains along the Crosstown line (which doesn't need it now, but might in 50 years) and also makes it a connector route on both ends, sort of like a double shuttle, to get people in underserved areas to and from existing trunk lines.

-Studies for additional trunk lines in Queens.

-Studies for a crosstown subway route in the Bronx, possibly one that can become a "far west side" trunk line in Manhattan.

 

If these aren't looked at in the next 50 years, the problem will only get worse in the most heavily crowded parts of the system. As in some third world countries, riding the system will become unsafe due to the crowding.

 

Well said.

[LexAveExp5]

I didn't move to Queens until after the 2010 budget cuts. What was so bad about the G running on Queens Blvd?

[bobtehpanda]

I didn't move to Queens until after the 2010 budget cuts. What was so bad about the G running on Queens Blvd?

 

The QBL has so many GOs that it basically didn't make sense to run the at all on weekends, since it wouldn't be running very often. On top of that, the (M)/(V) is way more useful than the , because more people are looking for Manhattan than they are Brooklyn.

[LexAveExp5]

Lol then they should run the regular M on weekends

[bobtehpanda]

Lol then they should run the regular M on weekends

 

The GOs prevent that from happening, since the QBL is affected fairly often due to the CBTC preparations. There's also not enough money; the just got extended to Essex.