If the Manhattan Els Haven't Been Torn Down...

[TheNewYorkElevated]

Curious question as a what if the Manhattan Els (2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 9th) haven't been torn down, still standing today (same stations and tracks), and have seen the real events that took place in NYC. Make sure you depict service too. 

 

Examples to get you started: 

(8) <8>-3rd Avenue Elevated

(12) <12>-2nd Avenue Elevated

(14) <14>-9th Avenue Elevated

(16) <16>-6th Avenue Elevated

 

 

 

[Sparen of Iria]

Well, for one, there would be no 6 Av subway, or at least no 6 Av express tracks. 

[bobtehpanda]

The subway would be a lot less efficient; most of the els had short station lengths, and also had flat instead of flying junctions (and used smaller dimension cars than the IND lines that replaced them), so imagine the situation we have with crowding on the Brooklyn IRT replicated in Manhattan and with five-car trains.

[Lance]

I'm aware this is another off-shoot of the Proposals thread, but I'm going to ignore that and explain why most of the els would have survived. Besides the usual complaints of noisiness and the elevated lines blocking sunlight among other gripes, most of the lines were replaced by the IND subways. The Eighth Avenue subway was close enough to render the Ninth Avenue elevated redundant and the Sixth Avenue subway was built directly beneath the elevated line. The only line that would remain standing if the city had any foresight into actually waiting until the Second Avenue subway was built would be either the Second or Third Avenue elevated lines, not both though. In my opinion, it would've been the Third simply to avoid having to secure the elevated tracks above Second Ave while trying to build a subway line underneath it. But like a lot of things, this is simply a thought exercise on What Ifs.

 

...most of the els had short station lengths...

And so did most of the IRT subway and BMT lines until around when Chrystie opened. Obviously we'll never know since they were all torn down, but the platforms on the elevated lines probably could have been extended if it was necessary.

[7LineFan]

The only line that would remain standing if the city had any foresight into actually waiting until the Second Avenue subway was built would be either the Second or Third Avenue elevated lines, not both though. In my opinion, it would've been the Third simply to avoid having to secure the elevated tracks above Second Ave while trying to build a subway line underneath it. But like a lot of things, this is simply a thought exercise on What Ifs.

Didn't the MTA claim that the structure of the Third was reaching the end of its useful life? There's a 1954 report by Col. S. Bingham that says that the oldest parts of the structure had less than a decade before they would have to be torn down anyway. If this is true I would think that it still wouldn't have survived until the present day, even assuming all the same delays on SAS construction.

 

I heard somewhere that the Second Avenue El was more structurally sound than the Third, but that they tore it down first so that they would have an excuse to rid Manhattan of all of its elevateds. Not sure how true this is, though.

[bobtehpanda]

Didn't the MTA claim that the structure of the Third was reaching the end of its useful life? There's a 1954 report by Col. S. Bingham that says that the oldest parts of the structure had less than a decade before they would have to be torn down anyway. If this is true I would think that it still wouldn't have survived until the present day, even assuming all the same delays on SAS construction.

 

I heard somewhere that the Second Avenue El was more structurally sound than the Third, but that they tore it down first so that they would have an excuse to rid Manhattan of all of its elevateds. Not sure how true this is, though.

 

The thinking behind tearing down the Second Av El is that they thought the replacement subway was just a couple years away, but deferred maintenance and the fiscal crisis put those plans in the trashbin. Tearing down the Els made property values skyrocket, so there was pressure from real estate to close the els as soon as possible. (I'm not sure if the same justification existed for the Bronx segments of the Third Av El.)

[NYSubwayBuff]

I would think that the best thing to do was to keep the 2nd ave el structure and tear off the tracks and have buses run on it at 1.5 min headways with signals similar to train signals. No other vehicles no bunching

[Wallyhorse]

The thinking behind tearing down the Second Av El is that they thought the replacement subway was just a couple years away, but deferred maintenance and the fiscal crisis put those plans in the trashbin. Tearing down the Els made property values skyrocket, so there was pressure from real estate to close the els as soon as possible. (I'm not sure if the same justification existed for the Bronx segments of the Third Av El.)

Yes, but in retrospect that would have happened anyway.  It already was on the major side streets and it was only a matter of time before it would extend to the areas closer to the 3rd Avenue El.

 

Had the El survived that, it would have had to have been likely rebuilt during the 1960's and early '70s, with during that period (even if not converted from IRT to BMT/IND standards) stations lengthened and consolidated so there would not be nearly as many of them as they were under the old El.  As I would do it today for a rebuild of the 3rd Avenue El that in this scenario would be on two levels with two tracks on each level like the CPW line:

 

South Ferry Branch (express branch eventually to The Bronx, joined in the Bronx by an SAS line):

South Ferry

Seaport (possibly as part of the Fulton Transportation Center with at least a MetroCard Transfer to all other lines)

 

Battery Park City/World Trade Center Branch (local branch to 125th Street and Park Avenue, formerly Park Row Branch):

Battery Park City (1-2 stops, locations TBD)

Church Street-World Trade Center (transfer to 7th & 8th Avenue lines)

City Hall-Park Row (transfer to Nassau Street & Lexington Avenue lines)

Foley Square-Centre Street

 

Both branches are together at Chatam Square, the only station that would be four tracks across on the line (Transfer to T)

 

After that, stops would be as follows:

Kenmare-Delancey/Bowery (Transfer to J/Z, MetroCard transfer to B/D/T)

Houston-1st Street (local only, MetroCard transfer to F)

11th-14th Street (Transfer to L/T, MetroCard transfer to 4/5/6/L/N/Q/R at 14th Street-4th Avenue)

23rd Street (local only)

34th Street (local only)

42nd Street (Transfer to 4/5/6/7/S/T)

50th-53rd Street (Transfer to 6/E/M/T)

60th-63rd Street (biggest transfer point on the line, transfer to 4/5/6/N/R/W on 60th Street end and F/Q on 63rd Street end)

75th Street (local only)

86th Street (local only, MetroCard transfers to 4/5/6/T)

96th Street (local only)

106th Street (local only)

116th Street (local only)

125th Street (last stop before splitting up, MetroCard transfer to 4/5/6)

 

The South Ferry Branch continues to The Bronx, the Battery Park City Branch goes to 125th Street and Park Avenue, where it terminates with transfers to the and .

[bobtehpanda]

Yes, but in retrospect that would have happened anyway.  It already was on the major side streets and it was only a matter of time before it would extend to the areas closer to the 3rd Avenue El.

 

I don't know what makes you think that; the rapid buildup and price rising of the UES only happened after the demolition of the els. Where elevated portions of structures still exist (125th/Broadway and Park Avenue north of 96th),property values are significantly lower compared to areas without els.

[Wallyhorse]

I don't know what makes you think that; the rapid buildup and price rising of the UES only happened after the demolition of the els. Where elevated portions of structures still exist (125th/Broadway and Park Avenue north of 96th),property values are significantly lower compared to areas without els.

I grew up close enough to where the 3rd Avenue El was to know.  Much of that likely would have been eventually built anyway, especially as the demand for real estate grew.  It might have taken longer with the El, but I suspect given there already were quite a few high rises near the El well before it was torn down the building that happened would have eventually happened anyway. 

 

Today, the 3rd Avenue El (likely rebuilt in the 1960's and early '70s with modern rails) would have been looked at as a "necessary evil," especially with the Lexington Avenue line being as overcrowded as it is.  I still think eventually you may need BOTH a full-length SAS AND a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El if all the new office towers go up and the UES becomes even more densely populated than it already is.

[Sparen of Iria]

In other words, T goes up 3rd Av to Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd.

[Wallyhorse]

That would be how I would do it today since a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El would be to IND/BMT standards.

[Quill Depot]

Anyway, so you know 3rd Av was a very very poor street, especially in lower-manhattan. Once the el was torn down skylight broke through, and the light of day shown, and the crap moved east.

[Quill Depot]

Some el's would likely be connected to Subway if they were still around. I would have torn down the 6th and 2nd Av El, and left the 3rd and 9th, rehabbed them and gave em' 8/10 car stations and Redbirds

[Wallyhorse]

Some el's would likely be connected to Subway if they were still around. I would have torn down the 6th and 2nd Av El, and left the 3rd and 9th, rehabbed them and gave em' 8/10 car stations and Redbirds

Except the 6th Avenue El today likely would be a major tourist attraction if it had been kept.

 

I would have myself gotten rid of the 2nd Avenue El and did as noted a complete rebuild of the 3rd Avenue El into a four-track, two-level line (some express stations were in fact on an upper level on the 3rd Avenue El) as noted upthread while in a rebuild of what was the 9th Avenue El, moving it over one block to 10th Avenue in a rebuild that would start after 14th Street (just past where 10th Avenue starts) and continue up Amsterdam Avenue until 110th Street where it would then continued its old route, joined by the 6th Avenue El that would go as follows:

 

Old route on 6th Avenue, but after 53rd continuing north to Central Park South and then up Broadway to Columbus Circle until 71st Street, where it would join what would now be the 10th Avenue El.  There would be transfers to the at 59th Street, the at 66th Street and the  and at 72nd Street/Broadway from the 6th Avenue El.

[bobtehpanda]

Some el's would likely be connected to Subway if they were still around. I would have torn down the 6th and 2nd Av El, and left the 3rd and 9th, rehabbed them and gave em' 8/10 car stations and Redbirds

 

The thing is, there was essentially no reason to have a Sixth and Ninth Av El existing at the same time as the IND, which essentially replicated the West Side El system. Even now CPW does not run at full capacity.

[Quill Depot]

True, so the third would be the once to keep, and by what I've heard it was the most technologically advanced at its time. No rebuilding, just a 3 track (2 in actual use) elevated line.

[Union Tpke]

In the book by J.Raskin there is a theory that the 2nd Avenue EL was built stronger, but since they wanted the el to come down sooner, the scrapped the 2nd Av El.

Disregarding the Manhattan Els, the Myrtle Av El and/or the Lex Els would have been really usefull, because they connected downtown brooklyn and northern brooklyn/williamsburg with more convinience and potetial to the G train. They originally went via the Brooklyn Bridge but was cut back. It could have easily been put through a tunnel and funneled into the Broadway or 6th or 8th Av lines or the potential 2nd avenue line.

Except the 6th Avenue El today likely would be a major tourist attraction if it had been kept.

I would have myself gotten rid of the 2nd Avenue El and did as noted a complete rebuild of the 3rd Avenue El into a four-track, two-level line (some express stations were in fact on an upper level on the 3rd Avenue El) as noted upthread while in a rebuild of what was the 9th Avenue El, moving it over one block to 10th Avenue in a rebuild that would start after 14th Street (just past where 10th Avenue starts) and continue up Amsterdam Avenue until 110th Street where it would then continued its old route, joined by the 6th Avenue El that would go as follows:

Old route on 6th Avenue, but after 53rd continuing north to Central Park South and then up Broadway to Columbus Circle until 71st Street, where it would join what would now be the 10th Avenue El.  There would be transfers to the at 59th Street, the at 66th Street and the  and at 72nd Street/Broadway from the 6th Avenue El.

thats reason would not appeal to the people wanting the El down in the first place, that would make it worse.

[Wallyhorse]

In the book by J.Raskin there is a theory that the 2nd Avenue EL was built stronger, but since they wanted the el to come down sooner, the scrapped the 2nd Av El.

Disregarding the Manhattan Els, the Myrtle Av El and/or the Lex Els would have been really usefull, because they connected downtown brooklyn and northern brooklyn/williamsburg with more convinience and potetial to the G train. They originally went via the Brooklyn Bridge but was cut back. It could have easily been put through a tunnel and funneled into the Broadway or 6th or 8th Av lines or the potential 2nd avenue line.

 

thats reason would not appeal to the people wanting the El down in the first place, that would make it worse.

True, but if those people could have seen the needs of people 70-80 years later, they might not have been so quick to tear the els down as they would have seen that building was going to take place.

 

And yes, today, I do think the 6th Avenue El would be heavily used by tourists as they could do a lot of sightseeing on that El as I would have done it for reasons that have nothing to do with that.  That line would likely be a spur off what would be the Battery Park City/World Trade Center branch of the 3rd Avenue El that would continue up Church Street until 6th Avenue started.

[Roadcruiser1]

Actually our Elevated Railways were very extensive. This map from Michael Calcagno just shows how diverse it was. The system in this map was I.R.T..

 

http://nycsubway.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/maps/calcagno-1920-elevated.gif

 

Brooklyn's, and Queens was just as extensive. The B.M.T. controlled this system.

 

http://nycsubway.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/maps/bmt_1931.pdf

[Eric B]

True, but if those people could have seen the needs of people 70-80 years later, they might not have been so quick to tear the els down as they would have seen that building was going to take place.

 

And yes, today, I do think the 6th Avenue El would be heavily used by tourists as they could do a lot of sightseeing on that El as I would have done it for reasons that have nothing to do with that.  That line would likely be a spur off what would be the Battery Park City/World Trade Center branch of the 3rd Avenue El that would continue up Church Street until 6th Avenue started.

It would be just like Chicago, for the Loop goes through a downtown area that looks in places like Rockefeller center.

[Wallyhorse]

It would be just like Chicago, for the Loop goes through a downtown area that looks in places like Rockefeller center.

Exactly.  Add Macy's on 34th Street as well as the views of Central Park at 6th Avenue and 59tth Street and Columbus Circle and Lincoln Center at 66th Street and Broadway (on its way to meeting the 10th Avenue El at 71st and Amsterdam) and the 6th Avenue El would be a huge tourist line today.