Musician Arrested for playing his guitar.

[peacemak3r]

 

 

In a video uploaded to YouTube on Saturday, Lawrence and Leigh musician Andrew Kalleen is seen being assaulted and arrested by NYPD- even after knowing his rights and proving to the officer that he had not broken any laws.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/nypd-assault-arrest-subway-musician-reading-broke-law/#uYKpXIGjKQBIOsmw.99

 

Excerpt from Rule 1050.6c

The following nontransit uses are permitted by the Authority, provided they do not impede transit activities and they are conducted in accordance with these rules: public speaking; campaigning; leafletting or distribution of written noncommercial materials; activities intended to encourage and facilitate voter registration; artistic performances, including the acceptance of donations; solicitation for religious or political causes; solicitation for charities that:

 

The video has some vulgar language, so if you are under-age, please beware.

 

I didn't really understand to well from the rule above, does that me, he can legally play his music if it doesn't disrupt movement on the platform? If that is the case the NYPD will most likely be receiving a hefty lawsuit because of this incident.

 

To most people, this is the same as panhandling and such, and this is the reason why I'm against cracking down on them. There are such bigger crimes out there yet everyone is so obsessed with cracking down on these people.

 

Think about it, if the NYPD enforced every single rule and law, everyone on this forum would have jay-walking tickets out the ass in one day. 

[NYtransit]

The Cop must be jealous that he never was able to sing himself.

[MTA Dude]

The Cop must be jealous that he never was able to sing himself.

 

Lol.

[MHV9218]

Pigs at work. 

[QM1to6Ave]

Wait, it is legal to perform music for tips in the subway?? I assumed it was illegal because the MTA has that whole contest to legally license a few performers each year (who, I believe, are not permitted to ask for donations). 

[peacemak3r]

Wait, it is legal to perform music for tips in the subway?? I assumed it was illegal because the MTA has that whole contest to legally license a few performers each year (who, I believe, are not permitted to ask for donations). 

 

I posted the section of the rule that apparently allows him to play for donations. Though I just don't know if I was reading it correctly or not and wanted to see if anyone can clarify if he was actually in the right.

[QM1to6Ave]

I posted the section of the rule that apparently allows him to play for donations. Though I just don't know if I was reading it correctly or not and wanted to see if anyone can clarify if he was actually in the right.

It seems like you have the correct interpretation, but that is so strange. Can you post some more from that section, including the "rules" it mentions that you need to follow/?

[peacemak3r]

I didn't get to fully read everything, but the link gave me this link: http://web.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm#purpose and I scrolled to the appropriate section.

 

Apparently this has made it to a news website as well at:

 

http://pix11.com/2014/10/20/video-nypd-cops-arrest-musician-for-singing-on-subway-platform/

[itmaybeokay]

Wow. I saw that go down. Have a video of the first part of their exchange too, but I was on the other platform and the train showed up. 

 

EDIT: The worst part is, had the cop payed attention, he would have noticed the drunk and rowdy kids on the northbound platform who boarded the train with me and proceeded to drunkenly showtime. 

 

That, beyond being an actual violation of the rules created an actual hazardous condition. I usually don't find the nypd to be too bad, in terms of how bad police can be, but this is absurd. 

[biGC323232]

Unbelieveable....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It seems like you have the correct interpretation, but that is so strange. Can you post some more from that section, including the "rules" it mentions that you need to follow/?

It was always my understanding that you could not panhandle on property, regardless of what you are doing to get the money.  They even have photos up saying that panhandling is illegal.  I mean whether or not the guy plays a guitar shouldn't matter. He's still soliciting money on property, so I would think that would be illegal.

[QM1to6Ave]

It was always my understanding that you could not panhandle on property, regardless of what you are doing to get the money.  They even have photos up saying that panhandling is illegal.  I mean whether or not the guy plays a guitar shouldn't matter. He's still soliciting money on property, so I would think that would be illegal.

That's what I thought as well! Maybe some RTO folks can shed light on this

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's what I thought as well! Maybe some RTO folks can shed light on this

I'm starting to get the impression that even the doesn't know their own rules or they like to pretend that they don't.  When I inquired about the riding policy on the train through the loop at Borough Hall a few months back, I received a response which basically pointed me to the rule section on the website, which I could've done myself. I think they like being vague when it suits them. What else is new with them... 

[itmaybeokay]

It was always my understanding that you could not panhandle on property, regardless of what you are doing to get the money.  They even have photos up saying that panhandling is illegal.  I mean whether or not the guy plays a guitar shouldn't matter. He's still soliciting money on property, so I would think that would be illegal.

 

Whether or not playing a guitar is "panhandling", even though he was accepting money, he wasn't breaking the rules. It's expressly permitted by the rules. See below. Emphasis mine. The arresting officer was completely out of line. 

 

Excerpt from Rule 1050.6c

The following nontransit uses are permitted by the Authority, provided they do not impede transit activities and they are conducted in accordance with these rules: public speaking; campaigning; leafletting or distribution of written noncommercial materials; activities intended to encourage and facilitate voter registration; artistic performances, including the acceptance of donations; solicitation for religious or political causes; solicitation for charities that:

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Whether or not playing a guitar is "panhandling", even though he was accepting money, he wasn't breaking the rules. It's expressly permitted by the rules. See below. Emphasis mine. The arresting officer was completely out of line. 

That seems to conflict with the flyers that are posted throughout the system by the , along with this article below:

 

 

 

 

Panhandling arrests in the subway continue to soar

By DAN RIVOLI June 23, 2014

 

The NYPD is continuing its crackdown on illegal panhandling in the subway system, with more than triple the number of arrests in 2014 compared to a year ago, according to latest stats from the department.

Under NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton, transit police have made 511 panhandling arrests through June 22, compared to 142 during the same six-month period last year, a 260% increase, according to the NYPD.

"Our enforcement of quality of life offenses remains strong," NYPD's transit bureau Deputy Chief Vincent Coogan told MTA board members Monday.

The crackdown on people in stations or traversing subway cars asking for riders' spare change eclipsed the number of arrests seen throughout all of 2013, when there were 372 arrests, and 2012, which had 309 arrests, according to the NYPD.

 

Read more: http://www.amny.com/transit/panhandling-arrests-in-the-subway-continue-to-soar-1.8544843

 

My question is what is exactly is considered "accepting donations" and what is considered "panhandling"?  I don't see the difference quite frankly.  It's one and the same, so I don't see how the cops could distinguish the two.

 

There's also this below found in a subway station:

 

[QM1to6Ave]

Im with VG8 on this...these 2 rules seem to conflict, or at least be nearly impossible to realistically distinguish. Where is the full set of rules?

[MHV9218]

The emphasis is obviously on artistic purpose. Not to mention, the Showtime! folk use speakers which breaks the amplification/radio playing rule. A guitarist with no amp is in the clear. I don't even think they should arrest the other guys since it's a ridiculous waste of resources, but this is particularly stupid given he did nothing illegal.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Im with VG8 on this...these 2 rules seem to conflict, or at least be nearly impossible to realistically distinguish. Where is the full set of rules?

Aside from this, the rules again seem to conflict and are vague, and I think in the cop's mind, what that guitarist was doing was illegal, as it was panhandling to the officer.  The rule above that I posted says "For the safety and comfort of all customers..."  Well what is safe and is comfortable for one customer may not apply to all customers.  That's pretty subjective, and that's why yet again there's the issue of whether or not people are breaking the rules or not. 

[peacemak3r]

On the rule itself, in section C, it does state, as long as it does not impede transit activities (I guess meaning flow of traffic and such) then it is permitted. In this case, the guy was just standing by the wall "accepting donations" from his artistic performances. Where as pan-handling usually occurs with people walking through cars and "disrupting" customer's ride home or whatever.

 

So if playing a guitar on the wall is literally disrupting one customer's day, can it be the same if I said, "Hey this guy is standing too close to me, he is disrupting me, arrest that guy?" Like really though? It's ridiculous.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On the rule itself, in section C, it does state, as long as it does not impede transit activities (I guess meaning flow of traffic and such) then it is permitted. In this case, the guy was just standing by the wall "accepting donations" from his artistic performances. Where as pan-handling usually occurs with people walking through cars and "disrupting" customer's ride home or whatever.

 

So if playing a guitar on the wall is literally disrupting one customer's day, can it be the same if I said, "Hey this guy is standing too close to me, he is disrupting me, arrest that guy?" Like really though? It's ridiculous.

This is precisely the problem with the 's rules.  They're all too vague and can be subjective.  What does one consider "impeding" transit activities? What is considered "disruptive"?  LOL It all depends on the individual, and from the cop's point of view, it's up to him to decide all of these things, so if he THINKS it's disruptive, pan-handling and impedes transit activities, based on how the rules are written, he has the right to then arrest the guy and of course since he's a cop, who do you think is going to be believed?  This is why I always err on the side of caution with the because none of these rules are definitive enough.

 

I think the to be honest doesn't want to be hard @sses about the rules, but if they become "quality of life" issues in the system, the way the rules are written allows them to deal with them or not deal with them, otherwise they would be more specific.  

[paulrivera]

Channel 7 just did a report and they said the MTA spokesman they talked to basically said they "don't know why he was arrested."

 

The Youtube video shows an underutilized platform, and the guy was mostly against the wall of the platform performing. Not like it was Grand Central or anything.

 

I'm not against the NYPD enforcing the rules, they just happen to do so with non-crimes at times when discretion should be used. Try riding an empty train at 3 AM and put your feet up against the seats vs. doing the same thing at 3 PM with a crowded train and see which time you end up getting a summons.

[peacemak3r]

Channel 7 just did a report and they said the MTA spokesman they talked to basically said they "don't know why he was arrested."

 

The Youtube video shows an underutilized platform, and the guy was mostly against the wall of the platform performing. Not like it was Grand Central or anything.

 

I'm not against the NYPD enforcing the rules, they just happen to do so with non-crimes at times when discretion should be used. Try riding an empty train at 3 AM and put your feet up against the seats vs. doing the same thing at 3 PM with a crowded train and see which time you end up getting a summons.

 

Ha, I had a warning for having my back on one of the seats on the once....I was one of 4 other people in the car at the time too. This guy and myself had the most shocked look when the cop left.

 

As myself, I don't bash on all cops, I have plenty of NYPD friends...but this situation could have been avoided.

[Trainmaster5]

Maybe I'm missing something in translation but "panhandling" and what this young man was doing are not the same thing. In my opinion a panhandler is aggressively asking or demanding a contribution while this person will accept a donation if it's offered but will continue his performance one way or another. That's just my "old school" way of defining the difference between the two. Panhandling is "in your face" hands outstretched begging where I come from. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Maybe I'm missing something in translation but "panhandling" and what this young man was doing are not the same thing. In my opinion a panhandler is aggressively asking or demanding a contribution while this person will accept a donation if it's offered but will continue his performance one way or another. That's just my "old school" way of defining the difference between the two. Panhandling is "in your face" hands outstretched begging where I come from. Carry on.

Yeah well the thing is when people play now, when they finish they usually go around with their hands outstretched looking for money for what they've done, so it's still panhandling.  They may not be as aggressive, but they're not playing just because. In NYC, everyone expects something for what they do these days. 

[QM1to6Ave]

Maybe I'm missing something in translation but "panhandling" and what this young man was doing are not the same thing. In my opinion a panhandler is aggressively asking or demanding a contribution while this person will accept a donation if it's offered but will continue his performance one way or another. That's just my "old school" way of defining the difference between the two. Panhandling is "in your face" hands outstretched begging where I come from. Carry on.

That makes sense, but I'm still shocked that musical performances in the subway are legal. I was always under the impression that they are not, unless you have the special approval from that Arts for Transit competition

 

I think the other issue here is that the musician felt so unjustly attacked that he wanted to get arrested.

 

In the video, the cop says at first that he is just ejecting the guy, not arresting him. I bet that a cop can legally choose to eject someone without proving that they commited a crime, just that they are a distraction or annoyance to other people (perhaps himself included). If the guy wanted to avoid arrest, he should have just left, filed a complaint about the cop when he got home, and gone to another station to perform.