Last 2 cars on Hudson Line not used for anything?

[Javier]

Hey, I recently noticed that the last 2 cars on a Metro-North Train doors dont open or dosent carry any passengers. I asked the conductor why is this, he told me to not worry because those train cars are not used most of the time and are only used during emergencies. So Im confused.   

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah I've seen this along the New Haven Line but never along the Hudson Line.  On some trains those last two cars are used when capacity is higher but often times they aren't needed as a lot of stations don't have platforms that are that long anyway due to the amount of passengers that get on, so it helps with boarding and de-boarding in terms of speeding up the process too.  It would probably be too much of a pain to remove those last two cars anyway so they just leave them, but it still doesn't make any sense to me given how short on cars Metro-North is to begin with.  If anything they should make the cars longer and get more cars.  It's annoying and ridiculous to pay over $10.00 one way and not be able to get a seat.  I thought the Hudson Line was due for more new cars soon anyway to retire the older fleet, but I don't know when those cars will be arriving, but they are bringing in record ridership, so how about giving us some new cars and more places to sit during rush hour??!?? 

[nostalgia]

It's easier to collect tickets in 6 cars that are each 80% full than 8 cars that are each 50% full.

[Javier]

I know but during PM between 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM, the trains are crowded as hell. I had to sneak into the last 2 cars which were thankfully open or I would've gotton crushed by a dude with his girlfriend. Its just a waste of electricity to power those last 2 cars, they should at least take them away form the set. 

[Fan Railer]

Virtually every commuter railroad in the NYC area (MNCR, LIRR, NJT) uses the practice of closing off cars when estimated demand does not warrant opening them. If passenger load does unexpectedly increase during a run, the conductors can always open up those cars for revenue service.

 

It's been established that it doesn't make logistical sense to run long trains during peak periods, pull them into the yards after peak periods to uncouple "unneeded cars", put them back into service for 4-5 hours, then pull them BACK into the yards to recouple the cars that were taken off, then send them back into service for the next peak period. This would be costly, in time and money, and overall a logistical nightmare.

 

In short, there's a very good reason for why commuter railroads do what they do. 

Yeah I've seen this along the New Haven Line but never along the Hudson Line.  On some trains those last two cars are used when capacity is higher but often times they aren't needed as a lot of stations don't have platforms that are that long anyway due to the amount of passengers that get on, so it helps with boarding and de-boarding in terms of speeding up the process too.  It would probably be too much of a pain to remove those last two cars anyway so they just leave them, but it still doesn't make any sense to me given how short on cars Metro-North is to begin with.  If anything they should make the cars longer and get more cars.  It's annoying and ridiculous to pay over $10.00 one way and not be able to get a seat.  I thought the Hudson Line was due for more new cars soon anyway to retire the older fleet, but I don't know when those cars will be arriving, but they are bringing in record ridership, so how about giving us some new cars and more places to sit during rush hour??!?? 

On off peak 8 car Hudson Line trains, I've seen up to 4 cars (2 pairs) on the northern end of the set closed off. This was warranted as well, since the train came into GCT as a morning peak train packed with commuters, and left GCT with me and maybe 20 other passengers on board. (To the OP) Doesn't make sense to spread out 20 passengers in 8 cars, does it? lol

 

The 85 foot car length is the industry standard; lengthening the cars further would incur structural design changes and needs for clearance tests throughout the system. This is not cost effective.

 

Yes, the M9s are supposed to come in and retire the M3As by year 2022, IIRC.

[Truckie]

While most of the reasoning behind closed cars, etc has already been answered, there's just a couple of points that haven't been touched upon. 

 

If there are cars full of people but the doors aren't opening.it's usually because the train is longer than the platform at the station.  Example:  Train 777.  The 7:25 PM train from GCT to Croton Harmon is an 8 car train that happens to stop at Marble Hill.  Marble Hill is only a 4 car platform.  Because Metro North frowns upon doors opening up that aren't on the platform, only 4 cars of the train open.  Another example of the same is every rush hour train north of Croton Harmon.  In most cases the trains are 7 cars with a locomotive, the platforms are all 6 cars.

 

As far as taking away cars during off peak times of day this would be a time consuming process.  Any time a train is cut apart or cars added a complete mechanical inspection must be performed.  If there was room to store a few extra pairs here and there this is what would have to happen.  8 car train goes into the yard to have a pair taken off because it's not needed for the next 4 or 5 hours.  After a switching crew removes the pair.  The remaining 6 cars have to have a complete inspection.  This takes upwards of an hour.  Now three hours later when the pair is needed again, and it's coupled back on to train to form a longer train, after the hitch is made another complete inspection must be done, taking up at least another hour.  Because there aren't mechanical forces sitting around during the day to do this more would have to be hired.

 

Another reason some trains having more trains than needed is due to maintenance cycles.  Example of this is on the weekend, the 5:14 PM train from Southeast to GCT is 8 cars (and all 8 are often needed).  At GCT that trains turns to the 7:20 PM train to Croton Harmon where in most cases only 6 cars are needed.  Because Southeast only has toilet dumping capabilities on 2 tracks, the train goes to Croton where there are dumping capabilities on almost all the passenger yard tracks.  Later that train may go back to GCT on using 4 cars, back to South east using 6 and layed over for the night where 8 cars will be needed again in the morning. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Virtually every commuter railroad in the NYC area (MNCR, LIRR, NJT) uses the practice of closing off cars when estimated demand does not warrant opening them. If passenger load does unexpectedly increase during a run, the conductors can always open up those cars for revenue service.

 

It's been established that it doesn't make logistical sense to run long trains during peak periods, pull them into the yards after peak periods to uncouple "unneeded cars", put them back into service for 4-5 hours, then pull them BACK into the yards to recouple the cars that were taken off, then send them back into service for the next peak period. This would be costly, in time and money, and overall a logistical nightmare.

 

In short, there's a very good reason for why commuter railroads do what they do. 

 

On off peak 8 car Hudson Line trains, I've seen up to 4 cars (2 pairs) on the northern end of the set closed off. This was warranted as well, since the train came into GCT as a morning peak train packed with commuters, and left GCT with me and maybe 20 other passengers on board. (To the OP) Doesn't make sense to spread out 20 passengers in 8 cars, does it? lol

 

The 85 foot car length is the industry standard; lengthening the cars further would incur structural design changes and needs for clearance tests throughout the system. This is not cost effective.

 

Yes, the M9s are supposed to come in and retire the M3As by year 2022, IIRC.

I'm not saying add more cars to train sets that already have the maximum amount of cars.  I'm saying purchase more cars and add those to train sets that aren't at their max so that on peak trains folks aren't standing all over the place.  Some trains that I have been on even during off-peak hours have been dangerously crowded to the point to where people can't even get off of the train.  This is particularly true on the Harlem Line.  In those instances those extra cars would come in handy if a train set can have more cars added to it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While most of the reasoning behind closed cars, etc has already been answered, there's just a couple of points that haven't been touched upon. 

 

If there are cars full of people but the doors aren't opening.it's usually because the train is longer than the platform at the station.  Example:  Train 777.  The 7:25 PM train from GCT to Croton Harmon is an 8 car train that happens to stop at Marble Hill.  Marble Hill is only a 4 car platform.  Because Metro North frowns upon doors opening up that aren't on the platform, only 4 cars of the train open.  Another example of the same is every rush hour train north of Croton Harmon.  In most cases the trains are 7 cars with a locomotive, the platforms are all 6 cars.

 

As far as taking away cars during off peak times of day this would be a time consuming process.  Any time a train is cut apart or cars added a complete mechanical inspection must be performed.  If there was room to store a few extra pairs here and there this is what would have to happen.  8 car train goes into the yard to have a pair taken off because it's not needed for the next 4 or 5 hours.  After a switching crew removes the pair.  The remaining 6 cars have to have a complete inspection.  This takes upwards of an hour.  Now three hours later when the pair is needed again, and it's coupled back on to train to form a longer train, after the hitch is made another complete inspection must be done, taking up at least another hour.  Because there aren't mechanical forces sitting around during the day to do this more would have to be hired.

 

Another reason some trains having more trains than needed is due to maintenance cycles.  Example of this is on the weekend, the 5:14 PM train from Southeast to GCT is 8 cars (and all 8 are often needed).  At GCT that trains turns to the 7:20 PM train to Croton Harmon where in most cases only 6 cars are needed.  Because Southeast only has toilet dumping capabilities on 2 tracks, the train goes to Croton where there are dumping capabilities on almost all the passenger yard tracks.  Later that train may go back to GCT on using 4 cars, back to South east using 6 and layed over for the night where 8 cars will be needed again in the morning. 

The point is in all of this is that ridership is increasing, and quite frankly I think it's stupid that they have some stations that have shorter platforms.  All of the platforms should be the same length, and then what you can do is have signs or announcements that simply note that only the doors on the first four cars will open, but the way a lot of stations are set up with short platforms you can't really set up for the growth that some of these stations may experience or are experiencing.  Why on earth does a station like Marble Hill have a short platform?  That makes no sense at all.  Now it isn't a Fordham station, but it sure as hell gets its fair share of riders... Enough that using a short platform there seems rather illogical.  You and I know that by the time those Hudson trains come down to Riverdale they are SRO and I think it's ridiculous to expect passengers to pay premium fares and have to stand when the conditions don't have to be that way by simply opening up the last two cars (if those two cars are attached to the train set).

[Truckie]

VG your concerns are just as frustrating to train crews but these are the conditions we both have to deal with.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

VG your concerns are just as frustrating to train crews but these are the conditions we both have to deal with.

At least we agree that they are issues... If only the realized this...

[Fan Railer]

I'm not saying add more cars to train sets that already have the maximum amount of cars.  I'm saying purchase more cars and add those to train sets that aren't at their max so that on peak trains folks aren't standing all over the place.  Some trains that I have been on even during off-peak hours have been dangerously crowded to the point to where people can't even get off of the train.  This is particularly true on the Harlem Line.  In those instances those extra cars would come in handy if a train set can have more cars added to it.

I never implied that you did, lol; I only commented on your suggestion to lengthen cars past the 85 foot length.

 

But yes, I agree with you about the capacity constraint. That being said, are there still power issues that prevent MNCR from running anything longer than an 8 car set of M7s?

[Truckie]

I never implied that you did, lol; I only commented on your suggestion to lengthen cars past the 85 foot length.

 

But yes, I agree with you about the capacity constraint. That being said, are there still power issues that prevent MNCR from running anything longer than an 8 car set of M7s?

From what i understand the power issues are on the Harlem Line north of NWP.

[Javier]

To me its a waste of money and people can acuallly sneak into one of the un-used cars to skip the fare from the cundoctor since he/she always leaves the door to the cab and the other train car#s unlocked. First it used to be hiding in the !bathrom to skip the fares and now its sneaking into the last 2 cars to skip the fare.

 

(Please forgi%ve me if my spelling is incorrect, my iPod has been off the hook latel&y.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

To me its a waste of money and people can acuallly sneak into one of the un-used cars to skip the fare from the cundoctor since he/she always leaves the door to the cab and the other train car#s unlocked. First it used to be hiding in the !bathrom to skip the fares and now its sneaking into the last 2 cars to skip the fare.

 

(Please forgi%ve me if my spelling is incorrect, my iPod has been off the hook latel&y.)

I've never seen anyone sneak into the last two cars..

[Javier]

Really? At Yonkers train station it almost always happens because both of the condcutors are in the first car doing who knows what.

[FlushingExpress]

Really? At Yonkers train station it almost always happens because both of the condcutors are in the first car doing who knows what.

From my experience at Yonkers, going southbound, only the first four cars will open its doors even though the platform can hold 10 cars (Hudson trains are 6 or 8 cars long). It is very common for LIRR and Metro-North trains to have extra cars that will never be used. Like today, I was on a Long Beach train that had 12 cars even though all stations from Locust Manor to Island Park can only platform 10 cars max. The conductors pretended like the rear two cars never exist. Port Washington trains are also like that. The one Metro-North train that really catches my attention is 548, the Harlem Line local leaving North White Plains on weekdays at 12:06, stops at Melrose and Tremont, and arrives at Grand Central at 1:01. It always consists of 10 M3As, but only the first six cars are used, so I know to get that train if I want a video of a ten-car Metro-North train. I believe the 1:25 pm North White Plains local out of Grand Central (533) and 10:09 am soutbound local (540) used to be like that. I know train 541 (2:56 p.m. local out of Grand Central and only stops at Fordham and Botanical Gardens between Harlem-125th Street and Mount Vernon West) also uses 10 cars, but not sure if all are in use.

[Truckie]

Really? At Yonkers train station it almost always happens because both of the condcutors are in the first car doing who knows what.

 

Do you know this from personal experience? I work an average of 3 trains a day that stop at Yonkers and thinking about it have never seen it happen.  Besides how would you know that someone is trying to skip the fare by going in a dead head and the conductors are at the other end of the train at the same time?  You can see both ends to know exactly what's going on?

 

In general people rarely sneak into closed cars and in most cases the conductor will secure the barrel end doors accessing the closed cars do it will take effort to open.  The people most likely to enter the closed cars are the ones too incompetent to comprehend the fact that if the lights are dimmed, and they are the only ones in there that it's closed.

[Truckie]

I know train 541 (2:56 p.m. local out of Grand Central and only stops at Fordham and Botanical Gardens between Harlem-125th Street and Mount Vernon West) also uses 10 cars, but not sure if all are in use.

 

Is 541 using 10 M3's only since the new time table (Nov 9)?  Prior to that 541 was 8 M7's and  543 was 10 M3's

[qjtransitmaster]

why not just use fewer cars

[Fan Railer]

why not just use fewer cars

Apparently someone didn't read the entire thread carefully enough. We already addressed this on the first page.

[Union Tpke]

also I see this every week on the 6:26 PM from Little Neck toward Penn Station