MTA to Explore Running Trains Underground during snowstorms

[Wallyhorse]

Looks like (depending on who you believe) there are admissions coming out the went too far and will look at keeping underground portions of the subways open in future snowstorms: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mta-explore-running-trains-underground-snowstorms-article-1.2095857

[Quill Depot]

Common sense prevails at last

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Common sense prevails at last

Why would you care anyway? I mean were you going to run down here from Westchester and take photos or something? lol

[Wallyhorse]

Why would you care anyway? I mean were you going to run down here from Westchester and take photos or something? lol

A lot of people care.  I wonder if David Faber's CNBC rant on Tuesday opened up some eyes and made Cuomo and the realize they were wrong to shut down the subways.

[LTA1992]

It's not like the MTA wanted to shut down. Even they were caught off guard by the governors decision.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A lot of people care.  I wonder if David Faber's CNBC rant on Tuesday opened up some eyes and made Cuomo and the realize they were wrong to shut down the subways.

I'm sorry but as much as I like CNBC and their business shows, David Faber's opinion doesn't mean sh*t.  I watched him at home go on and on ad nauseum about something that made logical sense given what was forecasted.

 

It's not like the MTA wanted to shut down. Even they were caught off guard by the governors decision.

Let's get the facts straight here.  Prendergast recommended the shut down to Cuomo, so the wanted to shut down.

 

 

 

But Tom Prendergast, chairman and chief executive of the MTA, defended New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo ’s move, which he said came at Mr. Prendergast’s recommendation.

Wall Street Journal Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/mta-defends-shutdown-of-new-york-subway-1422410510

[QM1to6Ave]

 

 

Let's get the facts straight here.  Prendergast recommended the shut down to Cuomo, so the wanted to shut down.

 

Wall Street Journal Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/mta-defends-shutdown-of-new-york-subway-1422410510

Good find with that WSJ article!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Good find with that WSJ article!

I could've listed any source, as I have heard this from various news channels.  Good Day New York did a report on it as well...

[Xentor]

During the storm after the 11pm shutdown deadline, some trains were actually running picking up employees and  keying in random drunkards, vagabonds and clueless residue from the system believe it or not. It wasn't a complete shutdown, it was just veeery limited. Crews were getting very limited, confusing or sudden information. All in all it was smart to keep a few trains running even if just to show "hey were here".

[Art Vandelay]

Prendergast did not recommend the shutdown. The MTA found out about it when everyone else did on TV. Just like The Mayor and all the other city agencies in the city. Cuomo singlehandedly ordered the shutdown. Without ANY coordination with ANY of the agencies involved. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Prendergast did not recommend the shutdown. The MTA found out about it when everyone else did on TV. Just like The Mayor and all the other city agencies in the city. Cuomo singlehandedly ordered the shutdown. Without ANY coordination with ANY of the agencies involved. 

So are you saying that VARIOUS news sources are lying ALONG with Prendergast??? I watched the report on Good Day NY with Prendergast sitting right next to Cuomo when Cuomo made the announcement, and Prendergast said himself that he made the recommendation. I would think that Prendergast of all people would have some experience to make that sort of recommendation, wouldn't you? Cuomo has the ultimate decision, but Prendergast most certainly can make recommendations to the governor. Just to be clear, making a recommendation isn't the same thing as making a decision. 

[Lance]

Alright. Since everyone and their mothers have jumped on the "the subway should not have been shut down" bandwagon, I've decided to do a bit of digging into the last blizzard we actually saw, the Post-Christmas 2010 blizzard that we were ill-prepared for. Almost every line was suspended in places at one point or another. Now that may sound like hyperbole, but I assure you, it's not. You're probably saying to yourselves, well obviously service couldn't run on the lines that accumulate snow quickly, like the open-cut sections, such as Dyre Ave, the Sea Beach or Rockaways lines. You know what, it went well beyond those isolated lines. Practically any line that ran outdoors was suspended at the height of the storm. At best, we were running Manhattan shuttles with some service to the other boroughs. That's on top of the fact that bus service was extremely limited and the regional rail network was completely suspended.

 

Now imagine that happened the other day. Mind you, we only saw 18 inches during the 2010 blizzard. We were expected to see two feet easily in Tuesday's storm with much higher amounts possible. If you think that they could provide anything better than the service we saw on Dec. 26-27, 2010 or that riders would really need or want to get anywhere afterwards, you're either crazy or delusional. Like I said previously, they probably could have gotten away with running only underground services, but after riders got off the trains on Queens Blvd or 4th Ave stations, where would they be going afterwards? The roads would still be closed off and the buses would not be running. I swear, if we did get the amounts originally predicted, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd be too busy digging out like they're doing in Suffolk County and in large swaths of New England.

 

This will be the last time I say something on this subject because quite frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Alright. Since everyone and their mothers have jumped on the "the subway should not have been shut down" bandwagon, I've decided to do a bit of digging into the last blizzard we actually saw, the Post-Christmas 2010 blizzard that we were ill-prepared for. Almost every line was suspended in places at one point or another. Now that may sound like hyperbole, but I assure you, it's not. You're probably saying to yourselves, well obviously service couldn't run on the lines that accumulate snow quickly, like the open-cut sections, such as Dyre Ave, the Sea Beach or Rockaways lines. You know what, it went well beyond those isolated lines. Practically any line that ran outdoors was suspended at the height of the storm. At best, we were running Manhattan shuttles with some service to the other boroughs. That's on top of the fact that bus service was extremely limited and the regional rail network was completely suspended.

 

Now imagine that happened the other day. Mind you, we only saw 18 inches during the 2010 blizzard. We were expected to see two feet easily in Tuesday's storm with much higher amounts possible. If you think that they could provide anything better than the service we saw on Dec. 26-27, 2010 or that riders would really need or want to get anywhere afterwards, you're either crazy or delusional. Like I said previously, they probably could have gotten away with running only underground services, but after riders got off the trains on Queens Blvd or 4th Ave stations, where would they be going afterwards? The roads would still be closed off and the buses would not be running. I swear, if we did get the amounts originally predicted, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd be too busy digging out like they're doing in Suffolk County and in large swaths of New England.

 

This will be the last time I say something on this subject because quite frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself.

These people just don't give a damn about the possibilities that were predicted and only have their selfish ideas in mind.

[bobtehpanda]

So are you saying that VARIOUS news sources are lying ALONG with Prendergast??? I watched the report on Good Day NY with Prendergast sitting right next to Cuomo when Cuomo made the announcement, and Prendergast said himself that he made the recommendation. I would think that Prendergast of all people would have some experience to make that sort of recommendation, wouldn't you? Cuomo has the ultimate decision, but Prendergast most certainly can make recommendations to the governor. Just to be clear, making a recommendation isn't the same thing as making a decision. 

 

I mean, do you expect the man to go on record and make his boss look bad? Not that I agree with Wallyhorse's suggestions, but it's entirely possible that behind the scenes is completely different from what actually goes on. The MTA Chairman can be removed any any time by the Governor.

[Art Vandelay]

I am saying that various news sources are being lied to by the Governor, and that Prendergast is lying in order to not make his incredibly vindictive boss look bad. 

[Art Vandelay]

https://medium.com/thelist/a-blizzard-of-privilege-424beb8d05b

To be blunt- Had the blizzard been as bad as we were suspecting, This boneheaded decision could have killed hundreds if not thousands  while a perfectly safe subway was sitting there unused. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I mean, do you expect the man to go on record and make his boss look bad? Not that I agree with Wallyhorse's suggestions, but it's entirely possible that behind the scenes is completely different from what actually goes on. The MTA Chairman can be removed any any time by the Governor.

I don't see any reason for Prendergast to lie about shutting down the system when ultimately it is Cuomo has has the final say, regardless of what Prendergast recommends or thinks.

 

I am saying that various news sources are being lied to by the Governor, and that Prendergast is lying in order to not make his incredibly vindictive boss look bad.

Vindictive how??

 

https://medium.com/thelist/a-blizzard-of-privilege-424beb8d05b

 

To be blunt- Had the blizzard been as bad as we were suspecting, This boneheaded decision could have killed hundreds if not thousands  while a perfectly safe subway was sitting there unused. 

Is that right? There was a travel ban in effect.  The only way that people would've been stranded was if they were boneheaded enough not to heed the ban.  Listen, the governor has a job, which is to do what he thinks is necessary to protect New Yorkers and ensure that they remain safe, and that's what it comes down to.  There was no other reason to suspend subway service, and the idea that you, Wallyhorse and others are trying to make this out into some sort of "conspiracy" is just ridiculous and "boneheaded" to use your words.

[QM1to6Ave]

During the storm after the 11pm shutdown deadline, some trains were actually running picking up employees and  keying in random drunkards, vagabonds and clueless residue from the system believe it or not. It wasn't a complete shutdown, it was just veeery limited. Crews were getting very limited, confusing or sudden information. All in all it was smart to keep a few trains running even if just to show "hey were here".

 

I was really surprised to see on the SubwayTime app that there were apparently trains running every 8 minutes or so, even at about 2 am, on the numbered lines. Was this true, or just some technical error from the app?

[Cait Sith]

I was really surprised to see on the SubwayTime app that there were apparently trains running every 8 minutes or so, even at about 2 am, on the numbered lines. Was this true, or just some technical error from the app?

 

The app was likely not updated when all of this happened.

[QM1to6Ave]

The app was likely not updated when all of this happened.

For the numbered lines, I thought it was supposed to use the data from those countdown clocks, which show trains in real time?

 

Just to be clear, this is the app/website I was checking    http://apps.mta.info/traintime/

[Wallyhorse]

I mean, do you expect the man to go on record and make his boss look bad? Not that I agree with Wallyhorse's suggestions, but it's entirely possible that behind the scenes is completely different from what actually goes on. The MTA Chairman can be removed any any time by the Governor.

That is true about both the Chairman and what goes on behind closed doors.  It would not surprise me if we find out later behind closed doors Cuomo got a serious scolding by Democratic Party Chairperson Debbie Wasserman Schultz and/or her associates over this.  I'm sure at least privately the Democratic Party is FURIOUS over this shutdown because Wall Street likely is now to use what Cuomo/Prendegast did against THEM in making every effort possible to make sure the Legislative Branches of this county remain in GOP control after the 2016 elections.  Fact is, Wall Street was PO'ed and unlike most people who will forget about this within a week or so, they will not forget so easily (and there are self-centered wealthy types who have the money to fund candidates that WILL listen to their wants).

I am saying that various news sources are being lied to by the Governor, and that Prendergast is lying in order to not make his incredibly vindictive boss look bad. 

Not that Prendergast is lying, but he could have said this before the closures happened.  Many people simply are not buying it and if Cuomo got the verbal smackdown behind closed doors he may have over this from Democratic Party leaders, it's quite possible the tunes changed after that.

 

https://medium.com/thelist/a-blizzard-of-privilege-424beb8d05b

 

To be blunt- Had the blizzard been as bad as we were suspecting, This boneheaded decision could have killed hundreds if not thousands  while a perfectly safe subway was sitting there unused.

 

And we would have STILL be having this discussion whether we had 6" or 60" of snow (and I had planned to link to that article in a separate thread as that was well-written).

 

Wall Street was THAT PO'ed over this and we live in a day and age where catering to Wall Street in something like this has sadly become more important in a lot of ways (even over public safety).  Had Sandy been more like Irene (which did directly hit NYC, but thankfully as a Tropical Storm) and Wall Street lost days because of that (as opposed to the flooding that actually did happen), Wall Street might very well have heavily funded a candidate to run against Cuomo last year and Cuomo might very well have lost his re-election bid because of these closures, even if in the case of Irene and Sandy he was proven right to do so. 

 

Alright. Since everyone and their mothers have jumped on the "the subway should not have been shut down" bandwagon, I've decided to do a bit of digging into the last blizzard we actually saw, the Post-Christmas 2010 blizzard that we were ill-prepared for. Almost every line was suspended in places at one point or another. Now that may sound like hyperbole, but I assure you, it's not. You're probably saying to yourselves, well obviously service couldn't run on the lines that accumulate snow quickly, like the open-cut sections, such as Dyre Ave, the Sea Beach or Rockaways lines. You know what, it went well beyond those isolated lines. Practically any line that ran outdoors was suspended at the height of the storm. At best, we were running Manhattan shuttles with some service to the other boroughs. That's on top of the fact that bus service was extremely limited and the regional rail network was completely suspended.

 

Now imagine that happened the other day. Mind you, we only saw 18 inches during the 2010 blizzard. We were expected to see two feet easily in Tuesday's storm with much higher amounts possible. If you think that they could provide anything better than the service we saw on Dec. 26-27, 2010 or that riders would really need or want to get anywhere afterwards, you're either crazy or delusional. Like I said previously, they probably could have gotten away with running only underground services, but after riders got off the trains on Queens Blvd or 4th Ave stations, where would they be going afterwards? The roads would still be closed off and the buses would not be running. I swear, if we did get the amounts originally predicted, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd be too busy digging out like they're doing in Suffolk County and in large swaths of New England.

 

This will be the last time I say something on this subject because quite frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself.

See my other comments above.  Otherwise, keeping the underground portions (along with a handful of elevated sections that are not subject to snow blockage) opened would have likely prevented a lot of people from being PO'ed over this.

 

And as for David Faber, he is EXTREMELY highly respected in Wall Street circles and his words carry a lot of clout on Wall Street (much like the late Mark Haines was).  He spoke for a lot of Wall Street with his rants on Tuesday.

[P3F]

That is true about both the Chairman and what goes on behind closed doors.  It would not surprise me if we find out later behind closed doors Cuomo got a serious scolding by Democratic Party Chairperson Debbie Wasserman Schultz and/or her associates over this.  I'm sure at least privately the Democratic Party is FURIOUS over this shutdown because Wall Street likely is now to use what Cuomo/Prendegast did against THEM in making every effort possible to make sure the Legislative Branches of this county remain in GOP control after the 2016 elections.  Fact is, Wall Street was PO'ed and unlike most people who will forget about this within a week or so, they will not forget so easily (and there are self-centered wealthy types who have the money to fund candidates that WILL listen to their wants).

Not that Prendergast is lying, but he could have said this before the closures happened.  Many people simply are not buying it and if Cuomo got the verbal smackdown behind closed doors he may have over this from Democratic Party leaders, it's quite possible the tunes changed after that.

 

And we would have STILL be having this discussion whether we had 6" or 60" of snow (and I had planned to link to that article in a separate thread as that was well-written).

 

Wall Street was THAT PO'ed over this and we live in a day and age where catering to Wall Street in something like this has sadly become more important in a lot of ways (even over public safety).  Had Sandy been more like Irene (which did directly hit NYC, but thankfully as a Tropical Storm) and Wall Street lost days because of that (as opposed to the flooding that actually did happen), Wall Street might very well have heavily funded a candidate to run against Cuomo last year and Cuomo might very well have lost his re-election bid because of these closures, even if in the case of Irene and Sandy he was proven right to do so. 

 

See my other comments above.  Otherwise, keeping the underground portions (along with a handful of elevated sections that are not subject to snow blockage) opened would have likely prevented a lot of people from being PO'ed over this.

 

And as for David Faber, he is EXTREMELY highly respected in Wall Street circles and his words carry a lot of clout on Wall Street (much like the late Mark Haines was).  He spoke for a lot of Wall Street with his rants on Tuesday.

Could you please cite your sources? Currently I'm not sure whether to believe you or not. If you want to show that your statements have some truth to them, please provide a source or something.

[Trainmaster5]

I'm still laughing at anyone who uses "respected" and Wall St in the same sentence. Are these the same "respected" Wall St people who sank the economy back in 2008? I can tell you first hand that the Republicans in North Carolina equate Wall St with fertilizer. I can assure you that the Democrats and Republicans in NC feel the same way about people from the financial sector as they do about someone tracking manure into church or a restaurant. I've sat down with people in Charlotte, Cary, Durham, and Fayetteville Black, White, Lumbee Indian, South American, whatever. They'd welcome Kanye West at a KKK meeting before accepting any ideas from any Wall St analyst. I personally think the OP overstates their influence. There's no doubt in my mind that Wall St is against Cuomo. Look at his prior position in New York State. They also hated " client # 9". Remember him and his prior job in NY? That's why they are against him. Natural enemies. Whether the subway shutdown was the right call IS another question entirely. I think the governor ordered the shutdown and the agency went along with it. This same argument is going on in the LIRR (see Railroad.net). The railroad old timers say they never used to shutdown either but in the last 10 years or so it's become commonplace on the LIRR too. IMO the cause of these shutdowns, full or partial, is litigation. Most advocates or opponents on these threads fail to realize that if someone wins some astronomical award against the that's not reduced by a judge you ,the ridership, will pay every dime awarded to the litigants. The agency is "self-insured" in the sense that there is no Lloyds of London or any other insurance company involved. You will pay even if the award is against the or the State of New York. Fare hike or tax hike. That's why I think these shutdowns are happening more and more and Wall St, or more specifically the bondholders, probably give a rat's behind what some talking heads on the business channels thinks. From what I've seen personally Wall St ranks below cow dung around this country. That holds for Republicans, Democrats, Libs, Tea Partiers, whomever. I'd listen to the average straphanger's opinion on the shutdown any day. Carry on.

[bobtehpanda]

I don't see any reason for Prendergast to lie about shutting down the system when ultimately it is Cuomo has has the final say, regardless of what Prendergast recommends or thinks.

 

It would be extremely bad PR for his boss. Cuomo has the final say on not only the transit system, but who is actually running it. I don't know about you, but to most people "job security" is usually a good enough reason to avoid publicly going against the person who pays you.

[Wallyhorse]

Could you please cite your sources? Currently I'm not sure whether to believe you or not. If you want to show that your statements have some truth to them, please provide a source or something.

That is specifically why I used "if" as it based on past history and a familiarity with politics as a whole.  I never said it actually happened, but if you string the timelines together it shows a likely series of events and the TIMING of such events suggest that (which many people do in fact realize even if it looks like it's as fact).   That's why I also said "it would not surprise me" if we found out Cuomo got scolded behind closed doors based on past history as we likely won't find out, but I wouldn't put it past someone leaking such out if it happened.

 

As for Wall Street being PO'ed, I doubt Mr. Faber would have gone on and on about the shutdown if Wall Street didn't feel that way.  He is not going to risk his reputation by doing that type of a rant forever and ever. 

 

And yes, in my opinion, the LIKELY lesson learned from this blizzard-that-wasn't is that you have to cater to Wall Street.  It SHOULD NOT be the case, but based on what we have seen, Rule #1 of politics, especially in New York because of how it could affect things nationally may even go as far as to trump public safety.  That's something that should NEVER happen, but this storm may have exposed that.

 

It may take a scenario where the is forced to keep the system open unless it's a Sandy/Irene situation where it should be obvious the system needs to be shut down, with it made CLEAR it's ONLY being kept open to keep Wall Street happy, which likely would get the off the hook as far as lawsuits go if something went wrong because Wall Street would be looked at as the enemy in such a case.  In my opinion, if Sandy had been a bust like this storm was (even if like with Irene it was the right call), Wall Street would have as mentioned likely used it as a reason to heavily back a candidate to beat Cuomo last fall and that candidate right now might be the new Governor of New York and having to kowtow to Wall Street's demands in a situation like this.

 

I'm still laughing at anyone who uses "respected" and Wall St in the same sentence. Are these the same "respected" Wall St people who sank the economy back in 2008? I can tell you first hand that the Republicans in North Carolina equate Wall St with fertilizer. I can assure you that the Democrats and Republicans in NC feel the same way about people from the financial sector as they do about someone tracking manure into church or a restaurant. I've sat down with people in Charlotte, Cary, Durham, and Fayetteville Black, White, Lumbee Indian, South American, whatever. They'd welcome Kanye West at a KKK meeting before accepting any ideas from any Wall St analyst. I personally think the OP overstates their influence. There's no doubt in my mind that Wall St is against Cuomo. Look at his prior position in New York State. They also hated " client # 9". Remember him and his prior job in NY? That's why they are against him. Natural enemies. Whether the subway shutdown was the right call IS another question entirely. I think the governor ordered the shutdown and the agency went along with it. This same argument is going on in the LIRR (see Railroad.net). The railroad old timers say they never used to shutdown either but in the last 10 years or so it's become commonplace on the LIRR too. IMO the cause of these shutdowns, full or partial, is litigation. Most advocates or opponents on these threads fail to realize that if someone wins some astronomical award against the that's not reduced by a judge you ,the ridership, will pay every dime awarded to the litigants. The agency is "self-insured" in the sense that there is no Lloyds of London or any other insurance company involved. You will pay even if the award is against the or the State of New York. Fare hike or tax hike. That's why I think these shutdowns are happening more and more and Wall St, or more specifically the bondholders, probably give a rat's behind what some talking heads on the business channels thinks. From what I've seen personally Wall St ranks below cow dung around this country. That holds for Republicans, Democrats, Libs, Tea Partiers, whomever. I'd listen to the average straphanger's opinion on the shutdown any day. Carry on.

Wall Street may in most of the country be looked at as very low, but I'm sure for instance the Koch Brothers are very happy with what Cuomo did PO'ing Wall Street by shutting down the subway because it has inadvertantly made their job of keeping the Republicans in power that much easier.  I'm sure John Bohener and other key Republicans, even if they would never say so publically are very happy as well that Cuomo PO'ed Wall Street because it considerably has unintentionally helped their chances of keeping control of the House and Senate in 2016 and even possibly in winning the White House.

 

As for litigation, there is no question that is now a big key in as to why the shutdown happened as was the case with Irene and Sandy when Cuomo made the correct call in both cases, and in fact, that originally was to me why the subways were shut down this time (before as it has come out the likely real reason was Cuomo not wanting to PO suburban voters with an eye towards 2018 re-election as was noted elsewhere and it was pointed out in a few places litigation had ZERO to do with it).  The problem was, this was a SNOWSTORM where in 1978 (TWICE!), 1979, 1983, 1996, 2003, 2006, 2010 (earlier in the year, not the Christmas fiasco) and even after the Christmas fiasco in 2011 and many others where we had big snowstorms and the underground portions of subways ran with minimal problems.  The 2010 storm had extenuating circumstances we have discussed to death in the past.   In the case of the LIRR and Metro-North, it was PRUDENT to shut those down because THAT's where the litigation problems would be more likely to happen as well as sections like the Rockaway portion of the and the open cuts as I would have done in 2010 for example), but there was no reason to shut down the underground portions of the subways that could have had unintended consequences the other way.  

 

If someone who was stranded had died or was hospitalized and it was proven to be because they could not get off work until after the subways were shut down, could not get a place to stay closeby and had to walk home a considerable distance in this (possibly freezing to death), you would have had lawsuits the other way and the Cuomo might have been even sued personally over this.  The publicity from THAT, never mind PO'ing Wall Street would have been just as bad as if someone suing for being stuck on a train or whatever else happened.