Mayor to ask MTA to study Brooklyn subway expansion

[Q113 LTD]

 

When Mayor Bill de Blasio releases his sustainability plan for New York City on Wednesday, he will ask the to consider running a subway south along Utica Avenue in Brooklyn, according to a portion of recent draft acquired by Capital. Utica Avenue “is one of the densest areas in the city not directly served by the subway," according to the plan, which notes the corridor is served "by the second busiest bus route in the City, the B46/B46 LTD." It's one of several -related proposals contained in de Blasio's OneNYC, a plan whose pages are marked with the motto, "The Plan for One New York: A Strong and Just Future." De Blasio is formally releasing the plan on Wednesday, according to sources. OneNYC is de Blasio's first legislatively mandated update of former mayor Michael Bloomberg's PlaNYC, which is supposed to provide a framework for mitigating the impacts of population growth and a changing climate on New York City's infrastructure. OneNYC also calls for the to study creating a transfer at the Livonia Ave/Junius St stations between the and the lines and thereby improve subway access for Canarsie and East New York residents. It advocates for faster installation of modern subway signaling, which can increase subway capacity by allowing trains to travel more closely together, and it calls for a strategy to "upgrade the Long Island Railroad (LIRR) Atlantic Branch to subway-like service after the completion of East Side Access—including adoption of the subway fare." That, according to the plan, "would provide a new transit option to residents of Crown Heights, East New York, and Jamaica." What the plan does not include, at least in its late-draft version, is any identification of new funds for the 's five-year capital plan, which has a $32 billion price tag and a roughly $15 billion hole. "As the city’s riders, toll payers, and taxpayers already support the bulk of the ’s operations, we will continue to look to every level of government to support this critical network of infrastructure that is so essential to the economic strength of the nation and the downstate New York region," the draft notes. It also says the city will "work closely with the to identify significant savings and improve operational coordination in areas of common interest, such as bus rapid transit, other bus services, and Access-a-Ride. Any savings we can achieve together can be leveraged to create new capital support for the .” Traditionally, the city has contributed $100 million per year to the 's capital plan. The mayor's preliminary capital budget allocates just $40 million a year, though the city insists that's just a "placeholder" identical to the one in the last mayor's preliminary capital plan. The , meanwhile, has asked the city to increase its traditional $100 million a year contribution to $125 million. A recent Independent Budget Office report noted that had the city's capital contributions kept pace with inflation, it would now be more than $360 million a year. The mayor's office declined comment. "These are all worthy additions to the system, but obviously they’re not putting some of their money where their rhetoric is about about the need for good transit," said Gene Russianoff, staff attorney at the Straphangers Campaign. “The and the city of New York are aligned on the importance of mass transit to keep the city thriving, " said spokesman Adam Lisberg, in an email. "Improvements like Communications-Based Train Control and Bus Rapid Transit offer the potential to carry more customers and bring more robust service throughout New York. We look forward to working with the city as we seek full funding for our 2015-19 Capital Program.”

 

Source: http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2015/04/8566451/mayor-ask-mta-study-brooklyn-subway-expansion

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for the link...

 

I don't why the article links DeBlasio's OneNYC plan to the general Capital plan.... that's like saying I can't talk about peanut butter without talking about jelly. Of course I can just talk about peanut butter.

 

Unless the implication is that his OneNYC plan IS tied to the general Capital plan--but I'd like to see evidence pointing to this, which the article does not give. Better to wait until the report is out then ask the question rather than speculating.

 

But yes, a Utica Avenue line is long overdue. If DeBlasio can get it started, I'll tip my hat to him.

[MysteriousBtrain]

If a Utica line was to be made in the cheapest way possible, I'd say a extension could do it. This would likely mean the end of late night service to new lots, so the would have to run the entire route at all times or in 2 sections.

[trainfanrod]

well portions of the propoed utica route have been carved from utica on the A so we see

[Union Tpke]

I would connect it to a South Fourth Street Subway.

[traingoat]

You might as well drag out the old system layout from the 30's which was razed in the 40's and start rebuilding it.

[bobtehpanda]

What's with the weird formatting? And I'll believe in a Utica Av subway when the ribbon is cut.

[Sparen of Iria]

I wonder if it would be reasonable to use cut and cover for Utica Av. Two tracks, subsurface, side platforms. You'd shut down the middle two lanes (assuming there is room and no utility bunch up), and you could use ramps to connect the mezzanine to the platforms, thereby reducing elevator costs.

 

While connecting to S4 St would be wonderful, the more immediate concern is getting the people service, so the line would probably be an extension of the or would have a first phase going to Myrtle/Fulton/EPkwy only, with anything going more north/towards Manhattan being an afterthought.

[RailRunRob]

I use the Eastern parkway line everyday. It's sicking!! its a crawl from Franklin to Bowling Green most mornings. And lets not get started on Rodgers JCT and the bottleneck there. Connecting it to the IRT might be  easier but with capacity constraints is there really room for growth?

Plus with the way the bell mouths are setup at Utica Ave station the Utica line would connect via the Local onto Eastern Pkway. So would that be the running to New Lots with the going to Kings Plz?  The Fulton Street line seems like the better option. Maybe breaking off between Kingston-Thrp and Utica  bypassing the Fulton-Utica station altogether? Anyone know how many trains Fulton is currently running per hour?

[Tokkemon]

A modern El might be able to convince this city that they're actually really easy and cheap to build, and not that negatively influential on life unlike the old box girder Els. Maybe in 20 years there will be new Els all over the outer boroughs.

Of course, connecting them to the main system will be a challenge without CBTC.

[trainfanrod]

i mean since Utica/Fulton station is somewhat built all they gotta do is built from there going south that can be a huge benefit because it would take forever to get that line to Manhattan but as it looks williamsburg needs a line asap

[RailRunRob]

i mean since Utica/Fulton station is somewhat built all they gotta do is built from there going south that can be a huge benefit because it would take forever to get that line to Manhattan but as it looks williamsburg needs a line asap

Where would that feed into?.

[LTA1992]

A new, PROPER, east side subway and not the skeleton that is SAS?

[bobtehpanda]

A new, PROPER, east side subway and not the skeleton that is SAS?

 

You keep going on about that, but Sixth Avenue wasn't a "proper" four-track subway either when it was built. We'll burn that bridge when we get to it and actually end up using all the capacity on the SAS tracks for outer borough services.

[RailRunRob]

A new, PROPER, east side subway and not the skeleton that is SAS?

Why can't we start with feeding into the Fulton street line again?

[Roadcruiser1]

The issue is once you get to Southeast Brooklyn the land down there used to be swamp so the bedrock can't support any tunneling. It's basically moist limestone with a high salt water table. Therefore it has to be elevated. It is also why the I.R.T. planned for it to be elevated down there in the original plans.

[RailRunRob]

The issue is once you get to Southeast Brooklyn the land down there used to be swamp so the bedrock can't support any tunneling. It's basically moist limestone with a high salt water table. Therefore it has to be elevated. It is also why the I.R.T. planned for it to be elevated down there in the original plans.

 

Shouldn't  be a issue just needs to be elevated. or it's a no good.

[bobtehpanda]

The issue is once you get to Southeast Brooklyn the land down there used to be swamp so the bedrock can't support any tunneling. It's basically moist limestone with a high salt water table. Therefore it has to be elevated. It is also why the I.R.T. planned for it to be elevated down there in the original plans.

 

We've built tunnels in marsh before. There is no reason why we couldn't do it with 21st century technology today.

[Sparen of Iria]

The lingering problem with els is simple: where do you build the tunnel portal?

 

If you run the subway down Utica Avenue, you are going to have to sacrifice a block or two somewhere, causing a traffic bottleneck. Modern elevated viaducts also require more obstructive structural support, so you'd be running concrete pillars down the center of Utica Avenue, with a two track viaduct at best.

 

As for marshes and tunnel building, the main concern is how expensive it would be. I personally think the Utica Av Line would be cut and cover because it's possible to do that and probably cheaper given that you could use the center lanes, but the risk of water damage becomes too great... and it may not be worth it to build all the way down if the costs will skyrocket.

[LTA1992]

You keep going on about that, but Sixth Avenue wasn't a "proper" four-track subway either when it was built. We'll burn that bridge when we get to it and actually end up using all the capacity on the SAS tracks for outer borough services.

I know I keep saying that but the 6th Avenue line was to connect to a much bigger system. Besides, 6th Avenue is not a long trunk route like the 2nd Avenue line is going to be, so it's not a great example so try again. There are large swaths of this city lacking proper transit. What are we going to do about that, eh? If this city continues with your type of thinking, then we will get nowhere fast. 

 

The issue is once you get to Southeast Brooklyn the land down there used to be swamp so the bedrock can't support any tunneling. It's basically moist limestone with a high salt water table. Therefore it has to be elevated. It is also why the I.R.T. planned for it to be elevated down there in the original plans.

It is not impossible to build in soft soil as it has already been done around the world. Freezing the ground until it hardens, then build. Boston did it with the big dig, there is no reason it cannot be done again. On top of that, we already have tunnels going under rivers so if we REALLY want to keep water out, use cast iron or steel casings around the tunnels and utilize a more efficient pumping system. That is, by far, the most basic of solutions that I am ready to give. 

 

Also, the widened street south of Eastern Pkwy is the answer to the tunnel portal question if it is to be a two track line.

[Wallyhorse]

A modern El might be able to convince this city that they're actually really easy and cheap to build, and not that negatively influential on life unlike the old box girder Els. Maybe in 20 years there will be new Els all over the outer boroughs.

 

Of course, connecting them to the main system will be a challenge without CBTC.

Exactly.  I still think that would be the best way to at least build the Bronx portion of the SAS (by rebuilding the Bronx 3rd Avenue El with provisions to later rebuild a Manhattan portion). 

[Eric B]

 

Also, the widened street south of Eastern Pkwy is the answer to the tunnel portal question if it is to be a two track line.

The best place for a portal would be the row of 1 or 2 story stores from midway in the block between Montgomery and Crown to Empire on the west side. You're coming down from a steep hill there, which would make it easier, and then the street becomes mostly low rise businesses with parking space in front south of there (instead of apartments with storefronts, like it is north of there), so an elevated would be less intrusive to residents.

[JayJay85]

Utica Avenue line would be connected to IRT Eastern Parkway line the would've got rerouted to Kings plaza the would be serving New Lots at all times.

This line would have to be elevated with solid floor.

 

Utica Avenue line stop would've been

East New York Ave

Wintrop Ave

Church Ave*

Beverly Rd

Avenue D

Kings Highway

Avenue K

Avenue N

Avenue U-Kings plaza*

 

* if the route going to be 3 tracks these station would served as express stop.

[trainfanrod]

ive read that the B46 SBS should launch by end of summer and i would change these stops

:Empire Blvd/ENY Ave

:Clarkson St next to wendys n post office

then Church Ave

then Foster Ave

THEN Ave D

then Ave H/Kings Highway

then Flatlands Ave and last stop Ave U-King Plaza

[Fresh Pond]

Utica Avenue line would be connected to IRT Eastern Parkway line the would've got rerouted to Kings plaza the would be serving New Lots at all times.

This line would have to be elevated with solid floor.

 

Utica Avenue line stop would've been

East New York Ave

Wintrop Ave

Church Ave*

Beverly Rd

Avenue D

Kings Highway

Avenue K

Avenue N

Avenue U-Kings plaza*

 

* if the route going to be 3 tracks these station would served as express stop.

The train portal is 2 (long) blocks away from Utica Av. Just for it to come back to Utica, it would either have to loop around Lincoln Terrace park, or build a while new level to Utica Av so trains can turn on the street without going in a loop.