East New York Posted July 24, 2015 Share #1 Posted July 24, 2015 It's now time for the CNG order ladies and gentleman! If anyone has been following the sub-forums in the bus section you know the base order calls for 138 buses with options for 125. I can now confidently confirm to you all that this order will be for New Flyer XN40's. As expected, the Department of Buses will now request board approval for a sole source, as bidding on this procurement is impractical. As I stated before, it would not be feasible for the MTA to solicit bids for this order. MTA said they wanted to solicit bids and request federal funds. I however mentioned long ago that from the information I was being told, this was not going to happen. As I have posted information like this before in this manner, I will let it be known now that New Flyer has not received an official notice of intent. When I announced the C40LF and initial XD40 orders, they were not public record. This XN40 order is not either. But it will be soon! Award to New Flyer now expected when funds are available as it will not be federally funded. Stay tuned!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteriousBtrain Posted July 24, 2015 Share #2 Posted July 24, 2015 More XD's (or in this case XNs).... wonderful!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 24, 2015 Share #3 Posted July 24, 2015 Good news. Good bye O7 CNG's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLX9304 Posted July 24, 2015 Share #4 Posted July 24, 2015 That means that NYC is very close to becoming a NF/Nova roster. Jackie Gleason will join the rest of the Brooklyn depots with 2/3s of New Flyer buses on the roster, even though they have C40LFs on theirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted July 24, 2015 Share #5 Posted July 24, 2015 My area now gonna be an Xcelsior-heavy hotspot. XD40s on the B7/14/15/60, and XN40s on the B8/35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VII 4 Life Posted July 24, 2015 Share #6 Posted July 24, 2015 Im sorry but NOTHING should be sole source unless it's 100% necessary. They bid contracts out to ensure our tax money goes to the lowest bidder that can do the job successfully and responsibly and Nova is fully capable of building a CNG bus. Sure we've had our problems with them but that should've been evaluated in the bidding process instead of giving NF a blank check. As much as I like the Xcelsior better than the LFS as a transit fan, as a taxpayer and fare payer I feel like the MTA isn't being responsible with my money or anyone else's in this city and state by not bidding out huge contracts that really should be bid out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 24, 2015 Share #7 Posted July 24, 2015 Im sorry but NOTHING should be sole source unless it's 100% necessary. They bid contracts out to ensure our tax money goes to the lowest bidder that can do the job successfully and responsibly and Nova is fully capable of building a CNG bus. Sure we've had our problems with them but that should've been evaluated in the bidding process instead of giving NF a blank check. As much as I like the Xcelsior better than the LFS as a transit fan, as a taxpayer and fare payer I feel like the MTA isn't being responsible with my money or anyone else's in this city and state by not bidding out huge contracts that really should be bid out. I think the issue is the MTA wants the buses built some time this century, and Nova is heavily backed up. The MTA might have simply run out of patience and just decided to go all in with New Flyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VII 4 Life Posted July 24, 2015 Share #8 Posted July 24, 2015 I think the issue is the MTA wants the buses built some time this century, and Nova is heavily backed up. The MTA might have simply run out of patience and just decided to go all in with New Flyer.Nova's performance should have been evaluated in the bidding process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 24, 2015 Share #9 Posted July 24, 2015 Im sorry but NOTHING should be sole source unless it's 100% necessary. They bid contracts out to ensure our tax money goes to the lowest bidder that can do the job successfully and responsibly and Nova is fully capable of building a CNG bus. Sure we've had our problems with them but that should've been evaluated in the bidding process instead of giving NF a blank check. As much as I like the Xcelsior better than the LFS as a transit fan, as a taxpayer and fare payer I feel like the MTA isn't being responsible with my money or anyone else's in this city and state by not bidding out huge contracts that really should be bid out. I thought you were a student, not a worker (taxpayer)... Cute nevertheless... I think the issue is the MTA wants the buses built some time this century, and Nova is heavily backed up. The MTA might have simply run out of patience and just decided to go all in with New Flyer. Nova Bus is a joke. The buses are ugly and cheap looking, and the AC on those buses is almost non-existent. Nova's performance should have been evaluated in the bidding process. They should take that 400 or so bus order from them and give it to New Flyer. Much better looking buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 24, 2015 Share #10 Posted July 24, 2015 Nova's performance should have been evaluated in the bidding process. The ones from the 90-bus evaluation batch certainly seemed to be a hell of a lot better build quality than the XD40s (then again, so are the new C40LFs), but NFI has the advantage of pumping their buses out at a high rate, and on-time. Methinks pretty much all current pending contracts are going to get handed to NFI since they might be done with their current MTA orders and ready for the remaining NYC artic and 40-footer contracts before Nova is half-done with their current portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion VII 4 Life Posted July 24, 2015 Share #11 Posted July 24, 2015 I thought you were a student, not a worker (taxpayer)... Cute nevertheless... Nova Bus is a joke. The buses are ugly and cheap looking, and the AC on those buses is almost non-existent. They should take that 400 or so bus order from them and give it to New Flyer. Much better looking buses. I make money and I pay taxes to this city and state. Nova is a f*cking joke but there's no excuse to just bypass the processes we have set out to protect the taxpayers... The MTA inspector general should look into this order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 24, 2015 Share #12 Posted July 24, 2015 I make money and I pay taxes to this city and state. Nova is a f*cking joke but there's no excuse to just bypass the processes we have set out to protect the taxpayers... The MTA inspector general should look into this order They probably already have prices from both, but I think urgency is what pushed them to just go with NFI. Nova dropped the ball big time with their SEPTA order* and that snowballed into the shitshow with the MTA order. *If SEPTA has a hand in that mess, someone please correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 24, 2015 Share #13 Posted July 24, 2015 I hope the XD40's that are currently coming in last for a while because it is crazy how fast all them buses came. I never had a chance to ride the newer LFS 8090 when it was at Jamaica but I have a feeling the LFS's are going to be built stronger and will overall last longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted July 25, 2015 Im sorry but NOTHING should be sole source unless it's 100% necessary. They bid contracts out to ensure our tax money goes to the lowest bidder that can do the job successfully and responsibly and Nova is fully capable of building a CNG bus. Sure we've had our problems with them but that should've been evaluated in the bidding process instead of giving NF a blank check. As much as I like the Xcelsior better than the LFS as a transit fan, as a taxpayer and fare payer I feel like the MTA isn't being responsible with my money or anyone else's in this city and state by not bidding out huge contracts that really should be bid out. Have you not been keeping up to date with what's going on???? They shouldn't be able to bypass the process? Let's examine your basis for objection, then look at the facts..... Among several factors..... Nova has no comparable fleet of CNG buses deployed anywhere.... They have a backlog g into 2016-2017. MTA wants all Orion VII CNG buses replaced before their tanks reach 15 years old and they are already reaching their service lives of 12 years. They are costing more to maintain than they were supposed to as MTA wanted to keep them till they were 15 years old as they do most all buses. MTA wants to order the buses today, and the only qualified builders are Nova, and New Flyer. Nova will be unable to deliver. A sole source is completely legal since the contract will now be MTA funds. If they were going to be federal funds as the original plans call for, then it would be put out to bid. MTA has done this before when warranted.... MTA sold soured LFSA's to Nova when New Flyer couldn't deliver. It's legal, and warranted when necessary. Any further questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetSMART45 Posted July 25, 2015 Share #15 Posted July 25, 2015 Sorry, ENY, I may be a n00b around these parts, but if you think Volvo (A/K/A Nova Bus) or any other North American builder isn't a contender in the CAPTIVE-market for CNG buses, you're sadly mistaken. Riddle me this: Why would anyone competing for FEDERAL (i.e. US dollars) -- out of the WHOPPING THREE transit bus builders certified for 'Buy American' status -- NOT be invested somehow in CNG products, given that the entire primary market is both the US and Canada? You've even got school-bus builders doing such and you're going to say there's a "non-competitive" market for transit buses? Just an observation, and if I'm proven wrong ... well, I'm big-enough to handle it. (And don't take this as a personal slight.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 25, 2015 Share #16 Posted July 25, 2015 Sorry, ENY, I may be a n00b around these parts, but if you think Volvo (A/K/A Nova Bus) or any other North American builder isn't a contender in the CAPTIVE-market for CNG buses, you're sadly mistaken. Riddle me this: Why would anyone competing for FEDERAL (i.e. US dollars) -- out of the WHOPPING THREE transit bus builders certified for 'Buy American' status -- NOT be invested somehow in CNG products, given that the entire primary market is both the US and Canada? You've even got school-bus builders doing such and you're going to say there's a "non-competitive" market for transit buses? Just an observation, and if I'm proven wrong ... well, I'm big-enough to handle it. (And don't take this as a personal slight.) Nova introduced their CNG bus model rather recently. They don't have the hundreds of CNG buses running all over like NFI does. In the case of CNG, going straight to NFI is not an issue, especially considering what ENY said regarding the MTA needing the buses ASAP and Nova having their now well known backlog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted July 25, 2015 Share #17 Posted July 25, 2015 Nova introduced their CNG bus model rather recently. They don't have the hundreds of CNG buses running all over like NFI does. In the case of CNG, going straight to NFI is not an issue, especially considering what ENY said regarding the MTA needing the buses ASAP and Nova having their now well known backlog. Hell as of now, Nova has about 10 (and I'm being generous here) CNG LFSs built and running around with more on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTA Bus Posted July 25, 2015 Share #18 Posted July 25, 2015 From a logical standpoint, going with New Flyer makes sense. The LFS CNG has just entered the bus market and there are really no other bus companies that the MTA can review in terms of how the bus performed in their transit system. I actually like the Xcelsior, so I'm excited to see the XN40s, both for MTA & NICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share #19 Posted July 25, 2015 Sorry, ENY, I may be a n00b around these parts, but if you think Volvo (A/K/A Nova Bus) or any other North American builder isn't a contender in the CAPTIVE-market for CNG buses, you're sadly mistaken. Riddle me this: Why would anyone competing for FEDERAL (i.e. US dollars) -- out of the WHOPPING THREE transit bus builders certified for 'Buy American' status -- NOT be invested somehow in CNG products, given that the entire primary market is both the US and Canada? You've even got school-bus builders doing such and you're going to say there's a "non-competitive" market for transit buses? Just an observation, and if I'm proven wrong ... well, I'm big-enough to handle it. (And don't take this as a personal slight.) Well when it comes to the MTA NYCT, there are no other contenders out there. NYC Transit does evaluations to qualify bus builders, and there are no other qualified builders. The only big players left are Nova, New Flyer, and Gillig. Not sure exactly what you were reading in my post, but I didn't say the market was non-competitive at all. However the only 2 options for MTA, so it is what it is. As far as at the moment Nova is NOT a contender... They have not delivered a "full comparable" fleet of CNG buses anywhere, and only have one customer in the US under their belt...... So I think u need to read my post again, because nowhere did I say what you are stating..... Plus, I've been in the transit industry for 20 years.... I have access to all the market data..... You are the only who has to have to ask Nova (or yourself) why they have been in business for all these years and are "just now" investing in a CNG LFS.... Gillig is not an option and most likely never will be... SMART and DDOT hate their fleets.... (I'm from Detroit BTW) Been to all the garages, and have been unter the hood of plenty of your Gilligs.... I really miss SMART's RTS fleet... They had a damn good maintenance team back then. SMART has had so many issues with theirs its ridiculous. From leaking gas takes, horrible suspensions, bad handling, poor breaking.... I could go on.... And let's not forget Gillig just got in the CNG game and hasn't even been in a full 5 years yet. New Flyer on the other hand has delivered nearly 4,000 CNG buses.(Not including NABI) When Gillig and New Flyer deliver 1,000 CNG buses then we can talk..... Hell, when they deliver at least 200+ we can talk... Till then, the CNG market and all other platforms will be dominated by New Flyer until Gillig raises their build quality, and Nova actually makes more CNG buses, and somehow increases production capacity..... Mind you they have yet to send a demo to MTA... New Flyer is like "You want one tomorrow?" DDOT hates their Gilligs (Only batch they ever had) and that's why they are taking delivery of Xcelsiors now. SMART hates their Gilligs as well, but cant afford anything else. Note Nova is not yet a major contender at all: Nova CNG 'full" fleet deliveries in the United States: 0 Canada: 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culver Posted July 25, 2015 Share #20 Posted July 25, 2015 ... the CNG market and all other platforms will be dominated by New Flyer until Gillig raises their build quality, and Nova actually makes more CNG buses, and somehow increases production capacity..... Mind you they have yet to send a demo to MTA... New Flyer is like "You want one tomorrow?" Note Nova is not yet a major contender at all: Nova CNG 'full" fleet deliveries in the United States: 0 Canada: 0 /mic drop NFI definitely had the edge on this contract. Surprised it actually took this long for the MTA to come close to deciding. Considering how quickly they've been pumping out the XD40s, they probably could've done the XN40s this year. How does NFI (and others) prioritize these orders? First come first serve or they reserve production capacity for clients like the MTA? I know King County Metro out here ordered a bunch of XDE60s from them, but those aren't coming in till late next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted July 25, 2015 Share #21 Posted July 25, 2015 from what i see your saying nova doesn't have delivery slots for the cng and new flyer does right eny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted July 25, 2015 Share #22 Posted July 25, 2015 New Flyer built well over 4,000 CNG buses. Our 205 (C40LF) is THE 4,000th CNG bus built by them, and that bus is about 3 years old now lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted July 26, 2015 Share #23 Posted July 26, 2015 Competitive bidding hasn't served the MTA well in the past...I recall the incident with fuel a few years back were only one company submitted a (highly overpriced) bid and the MTA was forced to shell out the money because the company was technically the lowest bidder, which the MTA was legally required to accept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted July 26, 2015 Share #24 Posted July 26, 2015 New Flyer built well over 4,000 CNG buses. Our 205 (C40LF) is THE 4,000th CNG bus built by them, and that bus is about 3 years old now lolI wonder if one day down the line that bus can be preserved. Similar to how Green Lines had bus 10001 for GMC bus 205 can be renumbered 4000 for New Flyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted July 26, 2015 /mic drop NFI definitely had the edge on this contract. Surprised it actually took this long for the MTA to come close to deciding. Considering how quickly they've been pumping out the XD40s, they probably could've done the XN40s this year. How does NFI (and others) prioritize these orders? First come first serve or they reserve production capacity for clients like the MTA? I know King County Metro out here ordered a bunch of XDE60s from them, but those aren't coming in till late next year. You have to remember this was the time schedule for the MTA anyway... They wanted to place an order before the summer ended, so they aren't really taking long at all. This has been expected for almost a year now. from what i see your saying nova doesn't have delivery slots for the cng and new flyer does right eny? Nova doesnt have any capacity for ANY bus. CNG, Diesel or other. The reason being is they have had more success that they were anticipating, so now they have a backlog. SEPTA which is notoriously New Flyer, is so pissed at them that they awarded the entire lot to Nova. Plus our 414 buses, and countless others.... New Flyer on the other hand took over NABI, which gave them more employees and resources by default. Not only that but they have 2 production facilities in the US now, and the NABI operations will be phased out in favor of the Xcelsior. I wonder if one day down the line that bus can be preserved. Similar to how Green Lines had bus 10001 for GMC bus 205 can be renumbered 4000 for New Flyer. Most definitely. It is already slated for a museum bus for several reasons actually. Its a New Flyer production milestone bus, the last batch of C40LF's ever produced, with take certification that matches the Xcelsior, and don't forget the C40LF was resurrected just for us because the Xcelsior platform wasn't qualified yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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