R17 Rollsign

[MHV9218]

I don't want to flood the Memorabilia forum, so I thought I'd start a thread here and share some images. I recently sold some items and bought myself a real piece of history: an R17 rollsign. It's one of the rarer rolls and sign boxes that the TA used, so I went through and photographed it. There are a few things that make the sign interesting: firstly, the crank is different from every other boxed rollsign of this variety, because the R17s were the first trains to have the large rollsign sets on everything from R26s to R38s. Secondly, the text design is uncommon: everything original is written on two lines, in Akzidenz-Grotesk, rather than a single line or in Helvetica like later signs.

 

These rolls are even more interesting because they were originally printed in the 1969 color scheme with things like the yellow , grey , and pink . I think these signs came from around 1973-1975, because the 8 is not present but the express is there. Unfortunately, the TA modified these signs around 1984 to feature the new colors, and I can't remove the modifications because they were done with paint rather than stickers. You can see the new pieces on the rolls, most noticeably on the roll: see how there's a darker black for the white section that was paintd over. However, you can see the original colors on a white background on the back of all rolls, and the vast majority of the route descriptions are original. One member has an R17 rollsign set with the original colors, and his shows everything well.

 

What that means is that some lines that weren't even present on later redbird rollsigns like the are there, and with readings that are particularly curious, like the Local-Express. Not to mention, the double lines of text inside and out are unique to this roll. The condition is surprisingly good, though I had to reinstall some of the pins to get it cranking. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a modified roll, with one line of text:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Modified roll:

 

 

 

 

Some of the hidden original text, all black on white.

 

 

 

I won't post the whole exterior roll, but here's the unique font on the sign:

 

 

And one of the strange reading:

 

 

More pics if anybody wants. Just thought I'd share with everybody! And if anybody knows of tips for removing a single layer of paint from mylar, hit me! For those keeping score, the modified contract is NYCTA 14-81-7348.

[R33WF]

Very nice sign as for flooding the Memorabilia forum there nothing with doing it. I did it back in March 2009.

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/1050-your-transit-memorabilia/page-11

[MHV9218]

Ah, right--was trying to remember who it was who had the original condition sign. Yours is a beauty! I'm thinking about trying to remove some of the paint coverings on mine, but it probably isn't worth it. The rolls are in very good shape, and I'd probably end up damaging them.

[R33WF]

If I was you I would leave the sign the way it is. If you try to remove the paint it will most likely remove the original print on the sign exposing a clear see through plastic.

[Gong Gahou]

The "paint" is peeling on some of the signs...perhaps it can be scratched off with a quarter. You know, like a lottery ticket!

...I'm just joking, the material should be stronger than that.

 

So I'm guessing that was you who bought that sign on eBay. Yesterday I was looking though their completed/sold listings to gather rollsign pictures (they only exist for a short period of time before they disappear), and I bumped into a listing for an entire side rollsign box with pictures that looks the same as what you got. Never did I expect to see a discussion of this particular rollsign from a member on this forum. When I first saw it on eBay I noted the different font widths and something resembling bullet stickers, but it never occured occured to me that the "stickers" were paint and that this entire rollsign is actually a modification of an older version. One question I have for you: is there a difference between the two modified 7 rolls? I'm not a frequent 7 rider, so I don't see the difference between "Express-Local" and "Local-Express", if there is any.

 

I recall you mentioning you prefer Standard/Akzidenz over Helvetica. I'm the opposite - while I do like Standard Medium, I prefer Helvetica Medium as that was the dominant typeface I saw through my childhood. So, before you start removing those painted bullets I would like to request close-up and head-on photos of those bullets, if you don't mind. They are a glimpse of how old Helvetica looked like; very few of these exist in the subway system today. I plan on making bullets with them as opposed to what is currently available on the market now, and your pictures would help me in designing the curves that are lost in today's Helvetica. Since I can use eBay's photos, I only need the 3, 5, 7 (eBay's photo is too blurry to be useful), and the S. If you don't want to do close-up, you can take a head-on picture of the entire reading like what R33WF did with his rollsign; I'm fine with that, but I would like the bigger bullets instead of the smaller ones. If for any reason you don't want to take these sort of pictures then that's okay - I'll use the resources I have now to make them.

 

Thanks for sharing, it was very interesting!

[Fresh Pond]

Local-express and express-local are exactly what they mean

 

Local-express is local to Manhattan and express to Flushing, and express-local is express to Manhattan and local to Flushing. On the newer signs (post-GOH I'm assuming), they have arrows on the sign.

 

Pretty useful during rush hours when it train will go to a terminal as a and go back the other way as a , and vice versa.

[MHV9218]

If I was you I would leave the sign the way it is. If you try to remove the paint it will most likely remove the original print on the sign exposing a clear see through plastic.

 

 

The "paint" is peeling on some of the signs...perhaps it can be scratched off with a quarter. You know, like a lottery ticket!

...I'm just joking, the material should be stronger than that.

 

So I'm guessing that was you who bought that sign on eBay. Yesterday I was looking though their completed/sold listings to gather rollsign pictures (they only exist for a short period of time before they disappear), and I bumped into a listing for an entire side rollsign box with pictures that looks the same as what you got. Never did I expect to see a discussion of this particular rollsign from a member on this forum. When I first saw it on eBay I noted the different font widths and something resembling bullet stickers, but it never occured occured to me that the "stickers" were paint and that this entire rollsign is actually a modification of an older version. One question I have for you: is there a difference between the two modified 7 rolls? I'm not a frequent 7 rider, so I don't see the difference between "Express-Local" and "Local-Express", if there is any.

 

I recall you mentioning you prefer Standard/Akzidenz over Helvetica. I'm the opposite - while I do like Standard Medium, I prefer Helvetica Medium as that was the dominant typeface I saw through my childhood. So, before you start removing those painted bullets I would like to request close-up and head-on photos of those bullets, if you don't mind. They are a glimpse of how old Helvetica looked like; very few of these exist in the subway system today. I plan on making bullets with them as opposed to what is currently available on the market now, and your pictures would help me in designing the curves that are lost in today's Helvetica. Since I can use eBay's photos, I only need the 3, 5, 7 (eBay's photo is too blurry to be useful), and the S. If you don't want to do close-up, you can take a head-on picture of the entire reading like what R33WF did with his rollsign; I'm fine with that, but I would like the bigger bullets instead of the smaller ones. If for any reason you don't want to take these sort of pictures then that's okay - I'll use the resources I have now to make them.

 

Thanks for sharing, it was very interesting!

 

You're right, you got me! I rarely go after rollsigns but with a set this great for a not-completely-terrible price (and after trading some stuff over, a very good price) I had to jump on it. I was as surprised as you about the painted changes--the MTA never does that anymore, but I guess the older practice was indeed paint instead of stickers. Fresh Pond covered the local-express distinction pretty well, but the main point is just the side of the sign that the diamond / circle is on. If set correctly, you can figure out the service by the train's general direction of travel.

 

Glad to hear you're as interested as me, and when I'm back from work today I'll get some photos of those bullets. Out of curiosity, what's the distinction between the 'old' and 'new' Helvetica that you see? I've always been able to spot the signs with Helvetica 55 (like some of the ones at Union Turnpike, or 103rd St on the 8th Ave) as opposed to Helvetica 65 (new signs that the MTA installs), but I haven't quite noticed the difference in curvature that you're pointing out. But you're right, the Helvetica on those bullets is definitely about as old as it gets for the MTA, since whatever modifications are on that sign had to have been done before 1988, since the R17 had been retired by then. Plus, given the modified readings (like the 4 or 7 readings) are still in Akzidenz-Grotesk, I think the changes must have been done during one of the years where both fonts were in play, say 1985-1987. Not to mention, a ton of R17s never got new signs in the first place--many kept the old scrolls without bullets. These were the only IRT side signs printed, to my knowledge, with pre-1979 colors. Interesting history regardless, and I'll grab those photos later today.

 

Local-express and express-local are exactly what they mean

 

Local-express is local to Manhattan and express to Flushing, and express-local is express to Manhattan and local to Flushing. On the newer signs (post-GOH I'm assuming), they have arrows on the sign.

 

Pretty useful during rush hours when it train will go to a terminal as a and go back the other way as a , and vice versa.

 

Yep--and this has got the arrows on the exterior roll, I believe. That whole section with the two bullets is new, though, cause the original on the backside just says Local-Express with the circle.

 

I think it also worked a little better when the destination signs had the TO: fixtures and the lights that went with them. 3807 still has one of those signs, but post-GOH nothing has been lit.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Nice find!

[Lance]

To follow up on this, in the mid to late '70s, it would appear there was a push to standardize the look of the rollsigns to the then-current R46 design as pictured below:

 

 

As seen in both the pics here and in the memorabilia thread linked above, this design was carried over to the redbirds. There was also a version created (or at least designed) for the 27s through the 38s. I don't have a picture of a train with those signs unfortunately, just some crude concept art depicting the design.

 

This is a very nice find MHV. I hope you enjoy your purchase.

[MHV9218]

I recall you mentioning you prefer Standard/Akzidenz over Helvetica. I'm the opposite - while I do like Standard Medium, I prefer Helvetica Medium as that was the dominant typeface I saw through my childhood. So, before you start removing those painted bullets I would like to request close-up and head-on photos of those bullets, if you don't mind. They are a glimpse of how old Helvetica looked like; very few of these exist in the subway system today. I plan on making bullets with them as opposed to what is currently available on the market now, and your pictures would help me in designing the curves that are lost in today's Helvetica. Since I can use eBay's photos, I only need the 3, 5, 7 (eBay's photo is too blurry to be useful), and the S. If you don't want to do close-up, you can take a head-on picture of the entire reading like what R33WF did with his rollsign; I'm fine with that, but I would like the bigger bullets instead of the smaller ones. If for any reason you don't want to take these sort of pictures then that's okay - I'll use the resources I have now to make them.

 

Here are your bullets! Arm almost fell off cranking, and unfortunately the paint is chipping a little on some, but alas.

 

 

 

 

 

Just for kicks, a little of the old SS:

 

 

And the new Special reading (directly on top of the old one, inverse colors), interestingly added in Akzidenz-Grotesk while the bullets are Helvetica:

 

 

To follow up on this, in the mid to late '70s, it would appear there was a push to standardize the look of the rollsigns to the then-current R46 design as pictured below:

 

 

As seen in both the pics here and in the memorabilia thread linked above, this design was carried over to the redbirds. There was also a version created (or at least designed) for the 27s through the 38s. I don't have a picture of a train with those signs unfortunately, just some crude concept art depicting the design.

 

This is a very nice find MHV. I hope you enjoy your purchase.

 

I had no idea that there were plans to bring that design to the B division rolls outside of the cars that arrived with them installed (like the R46s). Would have been a great sight to see an R32 pull in with one of those white-background patterns. It's interesting that those rolls were still on white even after the colors were changing, since the switch to trunk lines generally came with the switch to black backing (with some exceptions).

 

Glad you pointed out that R46 design--that's a roll I've always wanted to see completely. One guy on eBay has had this gorgeous JFK Express sign up for ages, but it's too pricey for my blood. It looks to be part of the larger roll, so I wonder if he'll ever offer different portions.

 

 

[houseofmemories802 photo]

[Lance]

If I had to wager a guess, it might include destinations for the E, F, GG, and N. However, since the cars used for the JFK Express were generally isolated from the rest of the Jamaica fleet, I could be wrong.

 

Regarding HoM's eBay collection, I sometimes use his collection for my sign recreations, but I cannot ever see myself paying the outrageous prices he's asking for, especially when he's only offering portions of sign curtains.

[MHV9218]

If I had to wager a guess, it might include destinations for the E, F, GG, and N. However, since the cars used for the JFK Express were generally isolated from the rest of the Jamaica fleet, I could be wrong.

 

Regarding HoM's eBay collection, I sometimes use his collection for my sign recreations, but I cannot ever see myself paying the outrageous prices he's asking for, especially when he's only offering portions of sign curtains.

 

Interesting..it's always fascinating to me how few lines were fit onto the original R46 signs, but when the scrolls are that size, I suppose it makes sense! 

 

I agree--those prices are nuts, especially for the little stickers and things he's got up there now. I once haggled a mint original R42 side sign from him for a decent price though, so I guess everybody has room for change!

 

Talked to a few artist friends about the chance of removing paint and the verdict is that it ain't gonna happen.

[MHV9218]

Updating this thread with the current status of the rollsign. Where the previous roll installed was a 1980 modification of the original roll, this is the unmodified 1977-1978 original. Besides the colors, there a few notable differences. The Lexington Ave Express is totally absent from the reading, and the single line directional Local-Express with two bullets is a simpler "Local-Express" of the vein. The Bronx Thru Express is also simply labeled Lexington Av Thru Express instead. Judging by the steel dust buildup, this rollsign probably came from a line R17.

 

Conveniently have bullets for this now:

 

Local

 

 

 

Local-Express

 

 

 

Express

 

 

 

Express 

 

 

 

Express

 

 

 

Thru Express

 

 

 

Express

 

 

 

Local

 

 

 

Local Pelham Express

 

 

 

Local

 

 

 

Express-Local / Local-Express

 

 

 

Local-Express / Express-Local

 

 

 

Pretty great colors, probably my all-time favorite rollsign produced by the NYCTA. Shame that it was only made in extremely small numbers, and almost all of them were repainted in 1979/1980 into the modified roll I showed at the beginning of the thread. I don't know why the contract was only for the R-17, but that's how it was ordered. Some made their way onto other cars, but only rarely. R17 6688 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum has one of these rollsigns in modified form installed--you can always tell by the glossier, darker black square around the bullet.