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How would you improve subway service in the Bronx?


JubaionBx12+SBS

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Subway service within the Bronx is in vast need of improvement. Whether it's northbound (6) trains taking forever to pull into Pelham Bay, only half of the available peak hour (5) service serving the exclusive portion of the (5), or not enough (2) and (4) service being run to accommodate their demands subway service in the Bronx is a crapshoot regardless of what you ride. The problem is that the MTA seems to be addressing anything and everything except for the needs of Bronx riders. All of our capital projects currently in planning or construction are aimed at improving commutes for Manhattan riders or riders in Queens/Long Island. Over half a million riders daily use the various subway lines in the Bronx and most of then are commuting into Manhattan which leads to the crowding conditions we see with the Lexington and 7 Av lines. I had an idea that I posted in the Monthly Rant thread but I am aware that there are likely better ideas and would like a discussion focused around those possibilities. So I pose the question, how would you improve subway service in the Bronx?

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10 car trains aren't cutting it anymore in the Bronx, we need 11 and maybe even 12 car trains now. I don't care about practicality and feasibility, if the (MTA) can't/won't add service, they should add more cars to the trains they are already running. I still can't believe they're taking a rush hour (D) run away starting in December.

 

Oh, and they should extend the (A) into the Bronx, preferably across Fordham.

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I would stop running the D train on supplemental 12 minute headways on weekends (they're definitely not following the 10 minute headways per the online weekend schedule at www.mta.info).  It's now standing room only on southbound weekend D trains by the time you get to Tremont Ave, so people are standing all the way to 59th/Columbus Circle, and then gets super crowded again at Grand St (dangerously overcrowded on that narrow platform!)  There were people with clipboards last Saturday morning at 36th and Atlantic noting some information from the D train, but they really should have been at places like Grand St, 59th/Columbus Circle and Fordham Rd.

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I would stop running the D train on supplemental 12 minute headways on weekends (they're definitely not following the 10 minute headways per the online weekend schedule at www.mta.info).  It's now standing room only on southbound weekend D trains by the time you get to Tremont Ave, so people are standing all the way to 59th/Columbus Circle, and then gets super crowded again at Grand St (dangerously overcrowded on that narrow platform!)  There were people with clipboards last Saturday morning at 36th and Atlantic noting some information from the D train, but they really should have been at places like Grand St, 59th/Columbus Circle and Fordham Rd.

Time to perhaps make the (B) a seven-day-a-week train between Bedford Park and Brighton (with the (B) going to Bedford Park Boulevard at all times other than overnights)?

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Expect it to get worse. The population in the Bronx is and will grow as more people move there in search of affordable rent.  The subways in the Bronx go through some of the poorest areas of NYC (and America for that matter) and those people are not vocal to their elected officials to get things done so nothing will improve.

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Time to perhaps make the (B) a seven-day-a-week train between Bedford Park and Brighton (with the (B) going to Bedford Park Boulevard at all times other than overnights)?

 

Agreed...Service on CPW and the Concourse has gotten worse on weekends ....sometimes the C trains are running on 15 minute headways.

 

I would have the B train run--I think 5 TPH would do the trick. I would run it local on Brighton.

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Agreed...Service on CPW and the Concourse has gotten worse on weekends ....sometimes the C trains are running on 15 minute headways.

 

I would have the B train run--I think 5 TPH would do the trick. I would run it local on Brighton.

Local for what?  The (Q) is already local on the Brighton Line.  It could run its regular set up like it does during the week.

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Local for what?  The (Q) is already local on the Brighton Line.  It could run its regular set up like it does during the week.

Exactly how I would do it.

 

In fact, on weekends during the summer months I would extend the (B) to Coney Island since fewer trains are operating overall and you have beachgoers then specifically looking for Coney Island.  

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Expect it to get worse. The population in the Bronx is and will grow as more people move there in search of affordable rent.  The subways in the Bronx go through some of the poorest areas of NYC (and America for that matter) and those people are not vocal to their elected officials to get things done so nothing will improve.

Case in point: The Dyre Avenue line. The (5) for all intents and purposes is slowly morphing into a weekday only line. Every weekend it's a rotation of either shuttle service between Dyre-E180, 20 minute headways on the full line, 20 minute headways with no service between 149-E180, or just no service at all.

 

If you go by the loading guidelines, if you multiply 125% by 3 (275), but then divide by 2 to account for not having the (5) in Manhattan, you get a 187.5% seating load on average on the (4) and (6). The thing is, people don't evenly spread out between the remaining lines, even when they try to force people to the (6) by sending shuttle buses from Dyre/E180 to Hunts Point. And even if they did, 187.5% of seated capacity sounds like a packed train to me.

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Do we needed another thread on this?

If you don't like the topic no one is forcing you to participate... <_<

 

Case in point: The Dyre Avenue line. The (5) for all intents and purposes is slowly morphing into a weekday only line. Every weekend it's a rotation of either shuttle service between Dyre-E180, 20 minute headways on the full line, 20 minute headways with no service between 149-E180, or just no service at all.

 

If you go by the loading guidelines, if you multiply 125% by 3 (275), but then divide by 2 to account for not having the (5) in Manhattan, you get a 187.5% seating load on average on the (4) and (6). The thing is, people don't evenly spread out between the remaining lines, even when they try to force people to the (6) by sending shuttle buses from Dyre/E180 to Hunts Point. And even if they did, 187.5% of seated capacity sounds like a packed train to me.

For the poor areas of the Bronx, they have to deal with it.  The others take the express bus or Metro-North if either are available. I see this especially when traveling to or from the Morris Park/Pelham Gardens area of the Bronx.  The Bronx with all of its local buses is oddly enough still underserved in terms of subway service.  Looking at a map you would think all is well, but there are very few subways available to serve isolated and hilly areas.  Aside from Metro-North improvements for the East Bronx, I don't see much else improving. I really believe that traffic changes are needed on the Cross Bronx and the Deegan.  It would improve express bus commuting for areas like Throggs Neck, Country Club, Pelham Bay and City Island that have limited or no subway service.  There needs to be an HOV lane on both of them because the Cross Bronx screws up my commute considerably coming from Riverdale.  Going through the Bronx via the Deegan or Upper Manhattan via the Harlem River Drive to get to Midtown becomes a real ordeal. I've contacted one of my local representatives about this and have been told that it's been proposed but I don't buy it.  Until there is real noise made about congestion in the Bronx don't expect much to change.  Riverdale isn't congested, but it's evident that the traffic from the Bronx is affecting traffic in Upper Manhattan, so my commute is impacted as well.

 

When I lived on Staten Island, we express bus riders worked with Vito Fossella over a series of years to finally get the HOV lane for express buses on the Gowanus.  There needs to be far more noise in order for something similar to happen in the Bronx.

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I was going to post this in the proposals and ideas thread, but this seems like a better place.

 

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First, is the (C) to the Bronx. The (A) would stop at 155th and 163rd Streets at all times, as the (C) would branch off of it's current route at 135th Street. It would run through the Concourse Tunnels where it would branch off before turning on 161st Street, to run the route shown in the map, which is Odgen Avenue to University Avenue. The area the new line goes through, while having the (4) not too far away, has large hills going east-west, and is filled with almost nothing but 10 floor apartment buildings. The (C) would of course be extended to 10 cars in this scenario, and would also have it's TPH doubled to 12TPH. While Cranberry is at capacity during the rush, it is only at capacity coming from Brooklyn in the morning, and from Manhattan at night, so you can have 12TPH run on the (C) with no problem in the peak direction. It's new supplememental yard will be built on top of the current Concourse Yard, where it will have a connection to the yard below. I believe the line will get enough ridership to warrant running into Manhattan late nights. 

 

Second, is the (D) to Pelham Bay Park. After the Yankee Stadium stop, it will run on it's own line, down the route of the Bx6,  then up the Bruncker Expressway to I-95. This would mainly be done to take off crowding from the (6), and as an added bonus would make commutes easier for quite a few people, especially those in Throggs Neck. If needed, a new yard could be built at the brown marker, as there's just a movie theater occupying the current space. I wasn't 100% sure about the stops east of Zegera, so stops can be added there. The (B) as a result will run all times (at least in the bronx and manhattan) as it is now the only train serving Grand Concourse. If any trains need to be added, they will be taken from the (C) or (D).

 

Third, is the (6) to Eastchester. After Westchester Square. it will run up Cooper and Blondell (or alternatively could be run down Waters, with a stop at Hutchinson Metro Center), turn onto Willamsbridge over the amtrak tracks, and then onto Laconia. This will not only take people off the (2) and (5), (there should be room because of the (6) customers that moved to the (D)), but also serve vastly underserved areas. During the rush hours the (6) will run to Pelham, while the <6> goes to Eastchester. Other times I'd imagine a shuttle from Pelham Bay to Westchester Square will suffice.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention, all of the roads and streets being used, with the exception of Odgen Avenue, and 161st Street are wide and flat enough to support cut and cover or elevated construction.

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Personally, I believe that sending the (D) to Baychester/Co-op via Gun Hill and (6) to Co-Op alone will greatly improve service along those corridors simply because 205 and Pelham Bay Park are both shitty terminals. 205 has no crew room, while Pelham Bay Park has switches on what is for all practical purposes a 90 degree curve going into the station. Proper terminals need to be built for those two.

 

And of course, the SAS. I personally would send a SAS Local to Throgs Neck and send a SAS Express down 3rd Avenue, which would go to a transfer with Concourse and WPR at Gun Hill or would continue via Gun Hill or another corridor to Co-Op.

 

I also support the (A) via Fordham to Fordham Plaza or the existing Pelham Pkwy Station (WPR).

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While a Cross Bronx subway is sorely needed (for minimal evidence of this, I direct anyone to look no further than the ridership levels & patterns on the Bx12 & Bx36), instead of extending the (A), I'd say that it should be its own separate line - Basically connecting with PBP (6) on one end & Wash. Hgts - 168th st on the other....

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Time to perhaps make the (B) a seven-day-a-week train between Bedford Park and Brighton (with the (B) going to Bedford Park Boulevard at all times other than overnights)?

I'd rather expand (D) service than just give weekend service to the (B) because of frequent construction work. If anything, the (B) should extend to the Bronx in the middays and evenings.

I would have a branch of the SAS running via 3 Avenue, 163 Street, and Lafayette Avenue to Throggs Neck.

Agreed. I would have the line take the following stops:

3 Av-138 St

143 St (at 3 Av)

3 Av-149 St

156 St (at Melrose* or 3 Av)

Elton-Brook Avs* or 163 St (near/at 3rd Av)

Prospect Av (at 163 St)

Hunts Point Av (at Southern Blvd)

Bronx River Av (at Story Av)

Morrison Av (at Story Av)

Soundview Av (between Story and Lafayette Avs)

White Plains Rd (at Lafayette Av)

Castle Hill Av (at Lafayette Av)

Brush Av (at Lafayette Av)

Randall Av (under the cross bronx)

Throgs Neck-Harding Av (at Tremont Av)

*If a 3rd Av line would be made or be kept.

Speaking of 3rd, if the 3rd Av el was kept and extended into the lex line, that would help out too.

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Why in the hell are all of those trains ending at Bay Plaza??

 

Second who says these areas want subway service?  The people living there in Throggs Neck do so specifically because there is NO subway and like it isolated.  I don't have a subway in Riverdale and I don't want one.  Maybe the area of Throggs Neck by the housing projects would want it, but I can assure that areas such as Edgewater Park, Silver Beach Gardens and other parts of Throggs Neck east of the expressway near the Long Island sound want no subway coming there.  They are content with driving or taking the BxM9 express bus.

 

Third how are these subways supposed to be built?  

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future-subway-map-bronx.png?w=605

 

I feel like this is fairly self explanatory, as a proposal.

The stops between Sedgwick and Grand Concourse are too close together; I'd get rid of University and consolidate the Jerome and Concourse stops into one station. Everything else looks good, and if we'd get Trump to build rail lines instead of golf courses, we'd be set.

 

Heck, even if we got Trump, Bloomberg, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett to all contribute their money to build this it still wouldn't be enough lol.

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Who says these areas want subway service? The people living there in Throggs Neck do so specifically because there is NO subway and like it isolated. I don't have a subway in Riverdale and I don't want one. Maybe the area of Throggs Neck by the housing projects would want it, but I can assure that areas such as Edgewater Park, Silver Beach Gardens and other parts of Throggs Neck east of the expressway near the Long Island sound want no subway coming there. They are content with driving or taking the BxM9 express bus.

Kinda figured the ones near the water would feel some sort of way, which is why I moved half of the Throgs neck line on Lafayette Av to Story Av and kept the line from passing the Cross Bronx. Plus, the Story Avenue section could take some pressure away from the Bx5.

 

How are these subways supposed to be built?

From the maps shown here, I would assume there would be a similar method being done with today's 2 Av line. As for some of the eastern Bronx, there is some tracks available that are used by AMTRAK. Problem is will the MTA and AMTRAK agree to be able to share it's trackage for that section?

Also, when the LIRR East side access project is finished, there is already a plan to use that same line so the MNRR can get to Penn station, so I'm not sure how 3 different kinds of rail service would be able to work out, unless the subway has its own tracks to use like the PATH.

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Kinda figured the ones near the water would feel some sort of way, which is why I moved half of the Throgs neck line on Lafayette Av to Story Av and kept the line from passing the Cross Bronx. Plus, the Story Avenue section could take some pressure away from the Bx5.

 

From the maps shown here, I would assume there would be a similar method being done with today's 2 Av line. As for some of the eastern Bronx, there is some tracks available that are used by AMTRAK. Problem is will the MTA and AMTRAK agree to be able to share it's trackage for that section?

Also, when the LIRR East side access project is finished, there is already a plan to use that same line so the MNRR can get to Penn station, so I'm not sure how 3 different kinds of rail service would be able to work out, unless the subway has its own tracks to use like the PATH.

What some people don't realize is that there are areas of the city that are meant to suburban and not have a subway.  You put a subway in some areas and it changes things completely.  Throggs Neck is already being destroyed with over development.  A subway would pretty much kill off any nice quaint areas that are left in that neighborhood, and then there's the infrastructure problem... Some areas don't have the infrastructure to support massive increases in population.  Staten Island is a perfect example. It was built for a small population.  The areas by the water in Throggs Neck are VERY suburban and lack the road infrastructure to become that dense.   I could see Co-Op City having a subway, but Country Club, and other small areas by the water won't want a subway.  

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This article should sum up how Throggs Neck feels about more development:

 

 

The revolution was only intermittently televised, and then mostly on Bronxnet, a public access television station. But the struggle that ended in 2004 to prevent the construction of further McMansions and rezone Throgs Neck for lower residential density stirred passionate concerns for residents of that Bronx neighborhood. Three years later, locals also credit the downzoning victory with preserving real estate prices. And while the rezoning has mostly, but not entirely, stemmed the tide of new building construction, local brokers credited the changes with safeguarding real estate values and preserving the neighborhood’s suburban character. 

 

Source: http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/peace-after-the-battle-of-throgs-neck-2/

 

Those of us who live in suburban parts of the city do so to escape the hustle and bustle of the city.  We have no desire for a subway in our communities.

 

Country Club could added as well as a community that likes things quiet. If they screamed about having a local bus run too much they would certainly complain about a subway.

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What some people don't realize is that there are areas of the city that are meant to suburban and not have a subway. You put a subway in some areas and it changes things completely. Throggs Neck is already being destroyed with over development. A subway would pretty much kill off any nice quaint areas that are left in that neighborhood, and then there's the infrastructure problem... Some areas don't have the infrastructure to support massive increases in population. Staten Island is a perfect example. It was built for a small population. The areas by the water in Throggs Neck are VERY suburban and lack the road infrastructure to become that dense. I could see Co-Op City having a subway, but Country Club, and other small areas by the water won't want a subway.

Fair enough.
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