Javier Posted September 25, 2015 Share #1 Posted September 25, 2015 What do you guys think the would done if the Polo Grounds shuttle never closed and if the Culver Shuttle was never demolished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted September 25, 2015 Share #2 Posted September 25, 2015 The would be running to Woodlawn or Burnside . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted September 25, 2015 Wait, so the Polo Grounds shuttle used to connect with the as the Ninth Av Elevated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted September 25, 2015 Share #4 Posted September 25, 2015 Wait, so the Polo Grounds shuttle used to connect with the as the Ninth Av Elevated? Nope. After service south of 155th was cut on the 6th/9th Ave el's.. there were plans to connect the from 145th to 155th and over into the Bronx on the Jerome line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted September 25, 2015 Share #5 Posted September 25, 2015 Nope. After service south of 155th was cut on the 6th/9th Ave el's.. there were plans to connect the from 145th to 155th and over into the Bronx on the Jerome line. That is what should have happened back in the day. The to Woodlawn would have given passengers in The Bronx a west side option. There likely would have been a rebuild around 2004-'05 or so where the would have been taken south of the old connection before construction of the current Yankee Stadium began, likely with the connection far enough south where the would stop at 161-Yankee Stadium and given west side riders another direct route to "The Stadium." As for the Culver Shuttle, had that been kept I think given ridership increases over time you would have seen a rebuild that would have seen a full re-connection of the line to the portion leading to 4th Avenue. The portion that was the Culver shuttle probably gets rebuilt to first a single track in the 1980s around the time it actually was torn down in 1982-'83 but with provisions to go back to two tracks if warranted later. Probably by the late 1990's as subway ridership began to really jump with the current MetroCard, I suspect the second track would have been added and the Culver shuttle portion would have been fully reconnected to the line, with the island platform on the southbound side of Ditmas becoming a full length such (then connecting to the local track south of Ditmas) while northbound, there would have been a new upper level at Ditmas for trains going over to the by then-former shuttle portion, with the northbound track crossing over the other tracks from above. What you might also have seen was in a rehab of the lower level of 9th Avenue the station itself lengthened to handle 600' trains and any open portions north of the station tunneled up so the station could be used as a terminal in an emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted September 25, 2015 But why was the Culver Shuttle reduced to 1 track operations, and if it survived today, would it possible to extend the down to Ditmas then via the original structure of the Culver Shuttle to 9th Av. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted September 25, 2015 Share #7 Posted September 25, 2015 1) Low ridership. 2) No, it went in the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted September 25, 2015 Share #8 Posted September 25, 2015 But why was the Culver Shuttle reduced to 1 track operations, and if it survived today, would it possible to extend the down to Ditmas then via the original structure of the Culver Shuttle to 9th Av. The thing is it's always easier connecting the dot's when your looking back. It's apparent when these decisions were made no one could have foreseen the boom NewYork is currently under going. Where talking the 1950's and 1970's That's 40-60 year forecast the Mid 1970's might as well have been the apocalypse here in NewYork they where definitely living for the current. The question is what are we leaving for the New York City of 2050? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted September 25, 2015 Share #9 Posted September 25, 2015 Culver Shuttle: Polo Grounds Shuttle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted September 26, 2015 Share #10 Posted September 26, 2015 Unlike the Third Ave elevated, both the Polo Grounds and Culver shuttles were victims of low ridership and the duplication of nearby services. Regarding the former, after the Polo Grounds stadium was torn down following the Giants' move to California, the shuttle's ridership dropped like a rock. As mentioned above, there was a plan to link the southern end of the shuttle to the Lenox Ave line as part of the '39 system expansion plan, but obviously those plans fell through in favor of other more pressing matters. On the subject of the Culver shuttle, the Crosstown IND/Culver BMT connection pretty much killed that part of the Culver line. When D trains started running from Manhattan to Brooklyn via the Culver line in '54, service on the western portion of the Culver line (36 St to Ditmas Av) was cut back from Coney Island to Ditmas Av and all service was converted to a shuttle by the end of that decade. As the years went on, service dwindled so much due to low ridership that operations were reduced to a single-track service at all times. Frankly, it's amazing it lasted until 1975. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewYorkElevated Posted September 26, 2015 Share #11 Posted September 26, 2015 Culver Shuttle: Polo Grounds Shuttle: Facts about why these 2 lines of why they were discontinued, and how service would be if they were still standing today. The Polo Grounds Shuttle last ran with Lo-V's, with service ending in 1958 as of a result of the Giants moving to San Francisco. Low ridership was also a factor.* The Culver Connector (connecting the West End and Culver lines) last ran with 4-car R27/R30's until 1975 as of a result of low ridership. There was also another factor. The end of the Culver El was not part of the "Program for Action" but a victim of service cuts to try and keep subway service afloat in the midst of the 1975 fiscal crisis. - Mark S. Feinmann** If they were still standing, here's how the service pattern would go. Polo Grounds Basically, it would have been another simple providing a shortcut from the housing projects to Yankee Staduim as an alternative from the and . It would have ran with R62A's from the 42nd Street Shuttle. Or (as many others have said), it could have been the to Woodlawn. Culver Connector If it wasn't victim to the fiscal crisis (as stated above in the quote), the would have made it undergone a massive rehabilitation project in the late 80's. It would have GOH R32's to replace the R27/R30's, but eventually onto the 21st Century (and today) we would see R68/R68A's alot like the , , and Frankiln Avenue Shuttle. Like the Polo Grounds, I'll would be just another . *Evidence http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_9th_Avenue_Elevated-Polo_Grounds_Shuttle **Quote Source http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_New_York_Transit_Authority_in_the_1970s#The_Fix_is_Underway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted September 26, 2015 Share #12 Posted September 26, 2015 Unlike the Third Ave elevated, both the Polo Grounds and Culver shuttles were victims of low ridership and the duplication of nearby services. Regarding the former, after the Polo Grounds stadium was torn down following the Giants' move to California, the shuttle's ridership dropped like a rock. As mentioned above, there was a plan to link the southern end of the shuttle to the Lenox Ave line as part of the '39 system expansion plan, but obviously those plans fell through in favor of other more pressing matters. On the subject of the Culver shuttle, the Crosstown IND/Culver BMT connection pretty much killed that part of the Culver line. When D trains started running from Manhattan to Brooklyn via the Culver line in '54, service on the western portion of the Culver line (36 St to Ditmas Av) was cut back from Coney Island to Ditmas Av and all service was converted to a shuttle by the end of that decade. As the years went on, service dwindled so much due to low ridership that operations were reduced to a single-track service at all times. Frankly, it's amazing it lasted until 1975. That is true, and as noted, no one could have anticipated the kind of growth in subway ridership we would have really starting when the MetroCard began including bus-to-subway transfers and vice versa along with unlimited ride MetroCards in 1997. Had they known that would eventually come, the predecessors may very well have thought differently and kept the Culver Shuttle even with its low ridership knowing it could eventually come back. But of course, in 1975 no one thought of that as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted September 26, 2015 Hmm, is there anyway they could have restored the Polo Grounds shuttle back as the Ninth Ave Elevated? And today, since we still have fragments of the Polo Grounds shuttle remaining, would it be at all possible to bring it back to service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted September 26, 2015 Share #14 Posted September 26, 2015 Hmm, is there anyway they could have restored the Polo Grounds shuttle back as the Ninth Ave Elevated? And today, since we still have fragments of the Polo Grounds shuttle remaining, would it be at all possible to bring it back to service? The Ninth Ave EL ran from South Ferry to Woodlawn/Burnside.. Are you saying they should have rebuilt the entire line? restoring Ninth ave service? Where would you have the Polo Ground spur run or connect to if you were to bring it back? Area has changed abit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted September 26, 2015 Share #15 Posted September 26, 2015 Now that im thinking about it was the Polo Grounds shuttle like the Third Ave El in the Bronx upgraded to a standard subway 3rd rail system or was it using the Elevated type until service ended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share #16 Posted September 26, 2015 Well, making use of Sedgwick Av and the old tunnel, we can still connect it to the to bring it to the Stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted September 26, 2015 Share #17 Posted September 26, 2015 Well, making use of Sedgwick Av and the old tunnel, we can still connect it to the to bring it to the Stadium. That'll be a logistical nightmare. At that point, 148 St station, the portal to the tunnel to 145 St, and the yard is at sea level. You would have to build a bridge from that level (and under the Harlem River Drive up above the water's edge) and up across the Harlem River for ship clearances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted September 26, 2015 Share #18 Posted September 26, 2015 That depends on where you start the tunnel. The original plans didn't factor in 148 St station; if it's possible, you could extend 145 St south, close 148 St, and start the transition just north of 145. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted September 26, 2015 Share #19 Posted September 26, 2015 That'll be a logistical nightmare. At that point, 148 St station, the portal to the tunnel to 145 St, and the yard is at sea level. You would have to build a bridge from that level (and under the Harlem River Drive up above the water's edge) and up across the Harlem River for ship clearances I see the issue, and yes, it would be an engineering nightmare to be sure. In addition, because of where Yankee Stadium now is and the old connection to the Jerome El now gone as a result, you would have to have the come over to the Jerome line coming across probably East 157th Street in the Bronx (south of where the old Stadium was and where Heritage Field now is) so in this scenario, the would also stop at 161-Yankee Stadium before heading to Woodlawn (with during peak hours some short-turns at Burnside Avenue). Not easy to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted September 26, 2015 Share #20 Posted September 26, 2015 Wouldn't any connection use the track that branches from the yard and runs along the river under the highway for a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Rider Posted September 26, 2015 Share #21 Posted September 26, 2015 you can't put the Polo Grounds shuttle back, there is a rather large obstruction. It's called "New Yankee Stadium". The street the el was built over was demapped when the stadium was built. The turns and clearances would be beyond tight if you attempted to snake the tracks around the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share #22 Posted September 26, 2015 That would be a nightmare...however, that station that still exists near Yankee Stadium could be the terminal if Polo Grounds was brought back. Here's what I think should be done: The extends from Harlem 148 St going up the river, across it into Sedgwick Av under the Major Deegan, through the old tunnel to Yankee Stadium Central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted September 26, 2015 Share #23 Posted September 26, 2015 ^lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted September 26, 2015 Share #24 Posted September 26, 2015 you can't put the Polo Grounds shuttle back, there is a rather large obstruction. It's called "New Yankee Stadium". The street the el was built over was demapped when the stadium was built. The turns and clearances would be beyond tight if you attempted to snake the tracks around the building. As said in my prior post on that obstruction known as the current stadium. For such to work now, you would have to have the line go on East 157th Street next to Heritage Park (former site of the original Yankee Stadium), though doing so would allow what would most likely be the to stop at the existing 161-Yankee Stadium stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted September 27, 2015 Share #25 Posted September 27, 2015 That would be a nightmare...however, that station that still exists near Yankee Stadium could be the terminal if Polo Grounds was brought back. Here's what I think should be done: The extends from Harlem 148 St going up the river, across it into Sedgwick Av under the Major Deegan, through the old tunnel to Yankee Stadium Central. You do realize that 148 St doesn't even face the Bronx? For it to go to 148, then to the Bronx, it would have to double back the other direction. That or redesign the entire station & adjacent yard which all sits under an apartment building. Plus (once again), that entire area is at sea level, and the Harlem River Drive is above the water's edge. Gotta build a bridge between the highway & the shore, then ramp it upwards to the Bronx. More of a logjam and headache than an improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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