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R211 Discussion Thread


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There's quite a difference between being able to project in 4K, and being able to store 4K - how much hard drive space are we trying to shove onto the R211? And besides, what would be the point? 4K is not a prerequisite for having information display (which we already have) or digital advertising (which other places have been doing since 2001 on single-color LED displays).

I never said it should be used. I said it wasn't as impractical as you make it out to be. Especially with technology making itself obsolete every year.

 

Plus, bullets are stills. A still takes up almost no space no matter what quality it is. One Terabyte basic storage became the standard a while ago and is pretty cheap. 26 route bullets at 4k would still leave a ridiculous amount of space on the hard drive. Like, enough for every service change imaginable and still have space left over. Plenty for everything else needed for the public address system.

 

Lastly, what would be the point? If you are showing an image, then you want to be as sharp as possible. Nothing complicated.

 

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Edited by LTA1992
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I never said it should be used. I said it wasn't as impractical as you make it out to be. Especially with technology making itself obsolete every year.

 

Plus, bullets are stills. A still takes up almost no space no matter what quality it is. One Terabyte basic storage became the standard a while ago and is pretty cheap. 26 route bullets at 4k would still leave a ridiculous amount of space on the hard drive. Like, enough for every service change imaginable and still have space left over. Plenty for everything else needed for the public address system.

 

Lastly, what would be the point? If you are showing an image, then you want to be as sharp as possible. Nothing complicated.

 

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A vector would be a few kilobytes. And it would be infinite resolution.

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Both good points. Yes, current technology makes it dirt cheap to display extremely high-resolution graphics, short of full video content.

 

But we're not even talking about high resolutions at all here. We would only be talking about anything close to 4K if you were to put a 4K LCD or OLED panel on the front of the train, but that would be stupid. We're talking about LED panels, which are square modules with far less resolution at the physical sizes we're talking about.

 

With 1mm dot pitch (approx. the current state of the art for LED panels) 12 inches = approx. 300 pixels. That's sharp enough to display a lot of info and look crisp, but it's absolutely nothing in terms of processing power and storage needs. You can drive a 1920×1080 pixel display with a $20 hobby board (Rasperry Pi, etc.)

 

OR, for inside the train, they do make high-res LCD panels that are half-height, that would be suitable for replacing FIND, etc. LCDs are not suited to exterior train applications, but may be fine for inside the cars. 

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Both good points. Yes, current technology makes it dirt cheap to display extremely high-resolution graphics, short of full video content.

 

But we're not even talking about high resolutions at all here. We would only be talking about anything close to 4K if you were to put a 4K LCD or OLED panel on the front of the train, but that would be stupid. We're talking about LED panels, which are square modules with far less resolution at the physical sizes we're talking about.

 

With 1mm dot pitch (approx. the current state of the art for LED panels) 12 inches = approx. 300 pixels. That's sharp enough to display a lot of info and look crisp, but it's absolutely nothing in terms of processing power and storage needs. You can drive a 1920×1080 pixel display with a $20 hobby board (Rasperry Pi, etc.)

 

OR, for inside the train, they do make high-res LCD panels that are half-height, that would be suitable for replacing FIND, etc. LCDs are not suited to exterior train applications, but may be fine for inside the cars. 

The only time someone will be able to appreciate 4K resolution on a train’s exterior is if his face were a few inches away from the display. And I don’t think anyone is going to stick their necks out in front of a train to appreciate the extra resolution. These displays are for viewing distances measured in dozens of feet.

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Is there really a need for digital advertising? I just feel like that's a waste of money and electricity

 

 

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It would save on supplies for physical ads. And with the R211s having wifi, new ads could be transmitted to the trains while in service or installed remotely while in the yards. If I recall correctly, JR East already started with the new E235 series trains on the Yamamoto Line. Not only does it allow for digital ads, but it also allows for real-time weather and service status information. Other media like the news and actual silent commercials are also present. That would actually provide a golden opportunity for the MTA to take in even more from ad revenue.

 

I also don't think it would be a waste of money. Digital screens these days are really energy efficient. Plus, trains are already sending unused electricity back into the power grid via regenerative breaking. So any excess could be used for the screens either way.

 

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Edited by LTA1992
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Digital ads in subway cars are probably inevitable. The electricity is negligible and they could pay for themselves easily. My concern is heat output, although I'm not certain that would be a major issue. 

 

An alternative is zoetrope-style digital ads in tunnels, that display as videos you see through the car windows. Beijing already has this pretty much system-wide


The only time someone will be able to appreciate 4K resolution on a train’s exterior is if his face were a few inches away from the display. And I don’t think anyone is going to stick their necks out in front of a train to appreciate the extra resolution. These displays are for viewing distances measured in dozens of feet.

 

Exactly. 

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I don't have much against advertising, but I certainly hope that the same screens that are used to give service information are not also used for digital advertising! Every experience I've had with one of these resulted in me not being able to get the information I need in time - I kept thinking myself, "Can we cut this crap and get to the actual information please?"

 

At least physical advertising papers don't block any other info.

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The only time someone will be able to appreciate 4K resolution on a train’s exterior is if his face were a few inches away from the display. And I don’t think anyone is going to stick their necks out in front of a train to appreciate the extra resolution. These displays are for viewing distances measured in dozens of feet.

Exactly. The main purpose of these displays is to convey the train's identity and destination. They aren't broadcasting NFL games on them, so there's really no need for the displays to be the sharpest thing ever. Yes, the price of 4K TVs are dropping significantly, but unless they become so cheap or the standard LEDs become severely obsolete, I don't foresee the MTA investing in 4K at the moment. At least not for train displays.

 

Is there really a need for digital advertising? I just feel like that's a waste of money and electricity

 

 

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Maybe not a need, but it's a good opportunity. Advertisers are willing to pay more for a digital ad over a static one. They're also a win for the MTA as those displays can be used to show current service information among other useful things.

 

I don't have much against advertising, but I certainly hope that the same screens that are used to give service information are not also used for digital advertising! Every experience I've had with one of these resulted in me not being able to get the information I need in time - I kept thinking myself, "Can we cut this crap and get to the actual information please?"

 

At least physical advertising papers don't block any other info.

Much like the monitors outside of station entrances and the On The Go kiosks, I'm sure they can be coded to stick with pertinent information over useless advertisements when necessary.

 

Shifting gears, we have an idea of who's interested in building these cars. Of course, the three usual suspects, including Bombardier, have dropped their hats into the ring, Relative newcomer CRRC Corporation has also expressed interest in this order. For those unaware, they are currently building the 7000-series of cars for the Chicago Transit Authority.

 

Vendor List

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Shifting gears, we have an idea of who's interested in building these cars. Of course, the three usual suspects, including Bombardier, have dropped their hats into the ring, Relative newcomer CRRC Corporation has also expressed interest in this order. For those unaware, they are currently building the 7000-series of cars for the Chicago Transit Authority.

 

Vendor List

I would love it if someone here could get their hands on the technical specifications document, since the MTA does not make them public.

 

Other transit authorities do; I have printed copied of certain sections of the technical specifications for the SEPTA MultiLevels under procurement.

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I would love it if someone here could get their hands on the technical specifications document, since the MTA does not make them public.

 

Other transit authorities do; I have printed copied of certain sections of the technical specifications for the SEPTA MultiLevels under procurement.

 

Maybe a FOIL request can do it?

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Is there really a need for digital advertising? I just feel like that's a waste of money and electricity

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

 

Not only can you display dynamic ads, you can cycle through multiple ads. Digital ads fetch way higher prices than cheapo paper ones.

 

I don't have much against advertising, but I certainly hope that the same screens that are used to give service information are not also used for digital advertising! Every experience I've had with one of these resulted in me not being able to get the information I need in time - I kept thinking myself, "Can we cut this crap and get to the actual information please?"

 

At least physical advertising papers don't block any other info.

 

It depends on the implementation. Unless you're in the station or approaching it, I find you don't really need train info.

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It depends on the implementation. Unless you're in the station or approaching it, I find you don't really need train info.

 

 

I strongly disagree. I frequently look up and wonder if my stop is the next one, and it's nerve-wracking when it's not immediately apparent. It doesn't matter if we're pulling into the station yet or not. You might need time to put away your book, phone, etc. On a crowded train, you need to position yourself closer to the doors, etc. It's vital info that can't be blocked by ads. 

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I strongly disagree. I frequently look up and wonder if my stop is the next one, and it's nerve-wracking when it's not immediately apparent. It doesn't matter if we're pulling into the station yet or not. You might need time to put away your book, phone, etc. On a crowded train, you need to position yourself closer to the doors, etc. It's vital info that can't be blocked by ads.

Then you should already know better. Pay attention. You know what your stop is. You should already be putting your things away the stop prior. You should not rely too much on the customer information screens.

 

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Then you should already know better. Pay attention. You know what your stop is. You should already be putting your things away the stop prior. You should not rely too much on the customer information screens.

 

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Since I am so used to the train ride from Kew Gardens to Queens Plaza, I know exactly when to get up based on the sounds, the train's turning, or the signals on the outside of the train. I don't need the announcements. Sometimes I think that they make people less aware of their surroundings, and becoming totally reliant on them. If they are used to the announcements on R160s on the (F), they will be clueless when an R46 pulls into the station at 169th Street.

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Then you should already know better. Pay attention. You know what your stop is. You should already be putting your things away the stop prior. You should not rely too much on the customer information screens.

 

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I'm glad you're not designing subway cars these days...

 

 

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How does that have any thing to do with what I said? From his post, it seemed like he out TOO much responsibility on the signs and not enough on his own actions of knowing where he is and preparing in advance for his exit from the train.

 

Secondly, if I were designing cars, the R211 would be the result. Or something extremely similar at least as it pretty much incorporated everything I've thought newer cars needed. Right down to colors on the exterior sides.

 

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Edited by LTA1992
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Then you should already know better. Pay attention. You know what your stop is. You should already be putting your things away the stop prior. You should not rely too much on the customer information screens.

 

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Be nice.  :)

 

I would say it depends somewhat on the length and nature of the trip. I'm not about to spend 40 minutes twiddling my thumbs, intently watching each stop go by. That's not a good use of my time when I could be working (if I have connectivity) or reading, or even just enjoying a brian-teasing puzzle game. 

 

Also consider that some people have regular commutes, but others don't. I'm on the subway frequently, but it's always a different destination. 

 

But ultimately, I shouldn't have to look up every few minutes and try to find a station sign, then check the map to see how close I am to my stop, when technology provides a much better way, that's less stressful and lets me make better use of my time. 

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I was being nice, trust me. Im not asking you to stare into the soul of the person in front of you. I'm saying to be more aware. You know what stop you get off. Learn what is the stop before it (even if you are on an express, what location stop is prior) so you can start getting ready then. Eventually, no matter where you're going, it'll become second nature and you won't have to rush.

 

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