R211 Discussion Thread

[bulk88]

On 1/28/2021 at 9:05 AM, Stormxx said:

 

 It would mess up the CBTC because they wouldnt know a train was even there.

trip cock won't drop at start of CBTC block for a SMEE train. If every train leaves a Cbtc block the block reverts to aws/clear to next signal/legacy, and will go green.

[subwaycommuter1983]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:03 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This may seem like an odd speculation but given that the R211’s are CBTC equipped, and QBL is set to get CBTC upgrades within this year (or the next) what if the  sent all 460 R211’s to Jamaica, which should boot a majority of 160’s to 207th/Pitkin given that 8th Avenue CBTC is slated to be after QBL (and Culver since that’s a Work In Progress). Basically:

Jamaica Yard   - R211’s. Most likely, some 160s would be left over. Wouldn’t surprise me if they operated solely on the . 

207th/Pitkin   - Gets the 160‘s left over from Jamaica in addition to keeping its 179’s. This should be enough to boot whatever 8 car trains are at these 2 yards over to East New York. Coming to think of it, it would’ve been nice if the 179’s came CBTC equipped, but alas that’s not the case. 

IF we get to the option orders:

- Whatever CBTC equipped R211’s that happen to be 4 car sets should go to the  Line. I would also say to put them on the  but given that the Canarsie Line’s CBTC equipment is different (and outdated?) I don’t think R211’s could run there, at least not yet. 

- The rest of the 5 car R211’s should (obviously) replace the remaining number of 46’s, that would fill up the  and  fleets. But then there’s the argument that they could go to the  and  lines first in anticipation of 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Culver CBTC. But given how well Concourse takes care of their R68 fleet, I doubt that they‘ll touch the  line, (with the  its a bit more debatable given that its based out of Coney and a part time line). So here’s what I got:

 - Mix of leftover 46’s, 160’s and 179’s (211 base order only)

 - R68’s and R68A’s

 - Mix of 160’s (if any space is left) and the entirety of the R211 base order. 

  - R68’s. (Assuming that the Option orders of the 211’s are supposed to create a fleet expansion, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got any 4 car sets or if it gets anything out of East New York)

 - R143’s, R60’s and R179’s. (If it gets a piece of the R211 option order, I wouldn’t be surprised if a few 160’s and 179’s got booted to CIY or some other Yard) 

 - R46’, R68’s and R68A’s (The option orders for the R211’s to replace the remainder of the R46’s) 

MInd you, I did not account for the Shuttles. 

it's not an odd speculation. Since work on QBL, 8th Avenue and Culver CBTC is already underway it will make a whole lot of sense for the base order of r211's to go to either Pitkin/207 or Jamaica.

If CI r46's are indeed in worst shape, then those trains can be replaced by Pitkin's r46's.

I just hope that the MTA purchases all option orders of r211's. That way they can avoid making the same mistakes they did in 2020.

Edited February 3, 2021 by subwaycommuter1983

[Storm]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:03 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This may seem like an odd speculation but given that the R211’s are CBTC equipped, and QBL is set to get CBTC upgrades within this year (or the next) what if the  sent all 460 R211’s to Jamaica, which should boot a majority of 160’s to 207th/Pitkin given that 8th Avenue CBTC is slated to be after QBL (and Culver since that’s a Work In Progress). Basically:

Jamaica Yard   - R211’s. Most likely, some 160s would be left over. Wouldn’t surprise me if they operated solely on the . 

207th/Pitkin   - Gets the 160‘s left over from Jamaica in addition to keeping its 179’s. This should be enough to boot whatever 8 car trains are at these 2 yards over to East New York. Coming to think of it, it would’ve been nice if the 179’s came CBTC equipped, but alas that’s not the case. 

IF we get to the option orders:

- Whatever CBTC equipped R211’s that happen to be 4 car sets should go to the  Line. I would also say to put them on the  but given that the Canarsie Line’s CBTC equipment is different (and outdated?) I don’t think R211’s could run there, at least not yet. 

- The rest of the 5 car R211’s should (obviously) replace the remaining number of 46’s, that would fill up the  and  fleets. But then there’s the argument that they could go to the  and  lines first in anticipation of 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Culver CBTC. But given how well Concourse takes care of their R68 fleet, I doubt that they‘ll touch the  line, (with the  its a bit more debatable given that its based out of Coney and a part time line). So here’s what I got:

 - Mix of leftover 46’s, 160’s and 179’s (211 base order only)

 - R68’s and R68A’s

 - Mix of 160’s (if any space is left) and the entirety of the R211 base order. 

  - R68’s. (Assuming that the Option orders of the 211’s are supposed to create a fleet expansion, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got any 4 car sets or if it gets anything out of East New York)

 - R143’s, R60’s and R179’s. (If it gets a piece of the R211 option order, I wouldn’t be surprised if a few 160’s and 179’s got booted to CIY or some other Yard) 

 - R46’, R68’s and R68A’s (The option orders for the R211’s to replace the remainder of the R46’s) 

MInd you, I did not account for the Shuttles. 

I feel like ever since the swap commenced.. more R68's have gone to coney. Is that true or is it just in my head? Also, the 's fleet will be R211, R160B, and R68/a.

[subwaycommuter1983]

5 hours ago, Stormxx said:

I feel like ever since the swap commenced.. more R68's have gone to coney. Is that true or is it just in my head? Also, the 's fleet will be R211, R160B, and R68/a.

Keep in mind that work on Astoria and Broadway CBTC hasn't started yet and most likely be delayed due to MTA's budget issues.

Pitkin/207 will get a large chunk of the base order of r211A's if Jamaica keeps all the r160's. It's still possible that 207 may get the Siemens r160's, while Jamaica gets some of the r211A's as well as r211T's.

QBL and 8th Avenue CBTC will be completed before CBTC  is installed on Astoria and Broadway. Therefore, Pitkin, 207 and Jamaica have more priority over CI in regards to the base order of r211's.

If CI gets any base order of r211's, it will be a very small amount. Otherwise, CI will have to wait until the option orders of r211's in order to get a descent amount of r211's.

[Storm]

9 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Keep in mind that work on Astoria and Broadway CBTC hasn't started yet and most likely be delayed due to MTA's budget issues.

Pitkin/207 will get a large chunk of the base order of r211A's if Jamaica keeps all the r160's. It's still possible that 207 may get the Siemens r160's, while Jamaica gets some of the r211A's as well as r211T's.

QBL and 8th Avenue CBTC will be completed before CBTC  is installed on Astoria and Broadway. Therefore, Pitkin, 207 and Jamaica have more priority over CI in regards to the base order of r211's.

If CI gets any base order of r211's, it will be a very small amount. Otherwise, CI will have to wait until the option orders of r211's in order to get a descent amount of r211's.

I'm begging the  to not screw up the order like they did with the R160's 😐. They have to exercise if they want all of the 46's outta here.

[subwaycommuter1983]

3 hours ago, Stormxx said:

I'm begging the  to not screw up the order like they did with the R160's 😐. They have to exercise if they want all of the 46's outta here.

I agree 100%. What happened in 2010 was the result of the MTA focusing too much on what has happening at that time and not focusing on the future.

If there are any lessons that the MTA needs to learn from 2020 is that in the long run it will be much better and cheaper for the MTA to exercise all option orders of the r211's than try to preserve an old fleet way past their retirement time.

Also, the MTA needs to speed things up with the r262's and whatever replacement order for the r68's if they want the whole system to be CBTC by 2030.

[NewFlyer 230]

21 hours ago, Stormxx said:

I feel like ever since the swap commenced.. more R68's have gone to coney. Is that true or is it just in my head? Also, the 's fleet will be R211, R160B, and R68/a.

Coney Island also has the R68A’s that the  uses on the weekdays so the  and  tends to use some of them on the weekends to give the older R46 cars a break. Before it wasn’t really necessary to have the R68/A’s on the Broadway Lines because the R160’s are much newer and have less issues overall. 

After the R211’s come in, I don’t really see the need for the  and  trains to use the R68/A’s anymore. They would ideally want the R68’s off the  and  so they won’t have to switch roll signs and the  would benefit from less dwell time and the extra capacity of the newer cars. 

[R68ACTrain]

I’ve heard on some subway related discord servers that, the R211s are going to test on the ... and that half of them are delivered??? I pretty sure they’re due in April, so I’m confused as to how they’re allegedly two months early. 🤔 

[R32 3838]

9 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

I’ve heard on some subway related discord servers that, the R211s are going to test on the ... and that half of them are delivered??? I pretty sure they’re due in April, so I’m confused as to how they’re allegedly two months early. 🤔 

that sounds likely, CBTC test tracks between Church and 7th ave to test the CBTC ( I forgot if the culver middle track between Ditmas and kings hwy has CBTC or not)

 

2 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I agree 100%. What happened in 2010 was the result of the MTA focusing too much on what has happening at that time and not focusing on the future.

If there are any lessons that the MTA needs to learn from 2020 is that in the long run it will be much better and cheaper for the MTA to exercise all option orders of the r211's than try to preserve an old fleet way past their retirement time.

Also, the MTA needs to speed things up with the r262's and whatever replacement order for the r68's if they want the whole system to be CBTC by 2030.

They don't need to rush the R262's since CBTC in the A division is still far off and there's really nothing wrong with the R62/62A fleet.

the only issue with the R68's is they are 75 footers, other than that they still run great.

65% of the R211 is more than enough to replace the R46 fleet

[R10 2952]

27 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

They don't need to rush the R262's since CBTC in the A division is still far off and there's really nothing wrong with the R62/62A fleet.

the only issue with the R68's is they are 75 footers, other than that they still run great.

65% of the R211 is more than enough to replace the R46 fleet

My thoughts exactly.  The other thing that some people seem to forget is that the MTA is at least twice as broke now as they were in 2010; it's definitely not raining dollar bills at 2 Broadway, so all this talk I hear from certain folks about option orders, fast-tracking replacements for the R62s and R68s, is utter fantasy and nonsense as long as there's no extra money in the budget.

Edited February 4, 2021 by R10 2952

[NewFlyer 230]

35 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

My thoughts exactly.  The other thing that some people seem to forget is that the MTA is at least twice as broke now as they were in 2010; it's definitely not raining dollar bills at 2 Broadway, so all this talk I hear from certain folks about option orders, fast-tracking replacements for the R62s and R68s, is utter fantasy and nonsense as long as there's no extra money in the budget.

That’s the unfortunate thing and it seems like the MTA themselves don’t have much say in things such as opening the subways overnight because the setup now with the additional buses running is costing them more money.  

It is a good thing that the R62 and the R68 series of trains are still in good shape for their age, but hopefully the agency can get some more funds in the upcoming years so that the R62’s and R68’s aren’t here way past their useful lives. 

[Storm]

5 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

That’s the unfortunate thing and it seems like the MTA themselves don’t have much say in things such as opening the subways overnight because the setup now with the additional buses running is costing them more money.  

It is a good thing that the R62 and the R68 series of trains are still in good shape for their age, but hopefully the agency can get some more funds in the upcoming years so that the R62’s and R68’s aren’t here way past their useful lives. 

You're right. The 62's and 68's are in very good shape, even if they aren't NTT's. My prediction is they're going to CBTC the B division before the A division, So they'd have to rename the R268's maybe to the R238's? I don't know. 

The extra shuttle buses are costing the  money, like you said. When the pandemic hit, the  suffered a financial crisis, and is still suffering one. So, I'd say the chances of the whole system having CBTC by 2030 is like a 1/6 chance.

[Around the Horn]

9 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

I’ve heard on some subway related discord servers that, the R211s are going to test on the ... and that half of them are delivered??? I pretty sure they’re due in April, so I’m confused as to how they’re allegedly two months early. 🤔 

Pure nonsense; pay it no mind

[R32 3838]

36 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Pure nonsense; pay it no mind

it's not nonsense when they usually test anything with CBTC between 7th ave and church. I don't think he ment the whole entire line

[Lex]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

it's not nonsense when they usually test anything with CBTC between 7th ave and church. I don't think he ment the whole entire line

I'll give you that, but it doesn't account for the other thing mentioned.

[R32 3838]

Just now, Lex said:

I'll give you that, but it doesn't account for the other thing mentioned.

yeah I just caught on about half of them being here, yeah that's pure nonsense. the remaining cars (Besides the 20 R211T's) to be delivered won't be here until mid 2022

[LTA1992]

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

it's not nonsense when they usually test anything with CBTC between 7th ave and church. I don't think he ment the whole entire line

That track is to test new CBTC suppliers. The two places the 211s will test before revenue service are the Rockaway Test Track and the Sea Beach express track. As those are the two test tracks for B Div. And since the schedule is aggressive, we should see trains on both.

Edited February 5, 2021 by LTA1992

[subwaycommuter1983]

21 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

That’s the unfortunate thing and it seems like the MTA themselves don’t have much say in things such as opening the subways overnight because the setup now with the additional buses running is costing them more money.  

It is a good thing that the R62 and the R68 series of trains are still in good shape for their age, but hopefully the agency can get some more funds in the upcoming years so that the R62’s and R68’s aren’t here way past their useful lives. 

I agree. With good maintenance the r62s and r68's can last until 2030. The problem is that they can't run on CBTC lines unless they can be equipped with CBTC equipment.

The MTA needs to do a better job managing its budget and needs to put more political pressure on the federal government so that they can get more funding.

The MTA cannot continue to make the same mistakes that they made in 2010. Therefore, the MTA needs to move forward with the plans to modernize the whole system. 

Why? On one hand, the process of buying, building, delivery and testing of new subway cars takes years. So, does installing CBTC through the entire system, which also takes years..

On the other hand, ridership is increasing and it will continue to increase now that people are getting vaccinated. It will take months, not years, for ridership to go back to pre-pandemic levels. Some subway lines are already getting packed during rush hour.

The MTA cannot wait until trains and stations are jam packed in order to take these time consuming actions.

[R32 3838]

7 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

That track is to test new CBTC suppliers. The two places the 211s will test before revenue service are the Rockaway Test Track and the Sea Beach express track. As those are the two test tracks for B Div. And since the schedule is aggressive, we should see trains on both.

I know, but they'll test the CBTC on these on that part of the system as well.

[Around the Horn]

There is also Brighton express on weekends and nights for EMI testing as well

[T to Dyre Avenue]

10 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I agree. With good maintenance the r62s and r68's can last until 2030. The problem is that they can't run on CBTC lines unless they can be equipped with CBTC equipment.

The MTA needs to do a better job managing its budget and needs to put more political pressure on the federal government so that they can get more funding.

The MTA cannot continue to make the same mistakes that they made in 2010. Therefore, the MTA needs to move forward with the plans to modernize the whole system. 

Why? On one hand, the process of buying, building, delivery and testing of new subway cars takes years. So, does installing CBTC through the entire system, which also takes years..

On the other hand, ridership is increasing and it will continue to increase now that people are getting vaccinated. It will take months, not years, for ridership to go back to pre-pandemic levels. Some subway lines are already getting packed during rush hour.

The MTA cannot wait until trains and stations are jam packed in order to take these time consuming actions.

It probably is possible to equip the older cars with CBTC. Just different and expensive.

35 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

There is also Brighton express on weekends and nights for EMI testing as well

What’s EMI testing?

[RedLine]

Electromagnetic induction/interference testing to make sure AC equipment does not induce currents in the block signaling circuits.

[LTA1992]

On 2/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, R32 3838 said:

I know, but they'll test the CBTC on these on that part of the system as well.

IIRC, the CBTC setup on Culver is specifically for testing new suppliers interoperability and that's it. Even after CBTC is installed (remember, only the local tracks are getting it), the test track will be manually driven with CBTC testing off hours only. Mitsubishi just qualified in November so I would imagine the MTA has already begun the search for a fourth supplier to test. This is why I do not think we will see 211 CBTC tests there.

Educated guess? QBL express tracks during late nights is where R211 CBTC tests will occur. And once Eighth Avenue goes online, the express tracks there as well overnights.

Edited February 7, 2021 by LTA1992

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

IIRC, the CBTC setup on Culver is specifically for testing new suppliers interoperability and that's it. Even after CBTC is installed (remember, only the local tracks are getting it), the test track will be manually driven with CBTC testing off hours only. Mitsubishi just qualified in November so I would imagine the MTA has already begun the search for a fourth supplier to test. This is why I do not think we will see 211 CBTC tests there.

Educated guess? QBL express tracks during late nights is where R211 CBTC tests will occur. And once Eighth Avenue goes online, the express tracks there as well overnights.

 

yeah I could see them running on there as well. Also the (5 cars only) as well during the overnight hours.

[Storm]

Wherever the R46's are, the R211's will directly replace them. (aka ).

Anyways, my idea was they'd transfer all of the R179's on the  for  service. The Siemens from Jamaica will go to the . 260 R211T type cars would go to Jamaica to fill in. The 40 R179 cars on the  would go to coney. IF BOTH OPTIONS ARE EXERCISED, I think that the  should get ALL of the base order, and 60 more R211 extra cars. This is because the base order is mostly R211A. If the option order will be 100% R211T, the  should get first dibs. The  would get 450 cars, wiping out all of the R46's. So that leaves 772 extra cars. The 32 4 car variants would go to the  for extra service. That leaves 740 cars. If Jamaica would get 260 cars to replace the Siemens, we'd have 480 cars left. The rest of these cars would go to Jamaica, scattering around some leftover R160's. My first bet for these R160's would be  service. Maybe 250 cars to add extra service and to put some R68's to bed. That leaves 230 R160's. I think 40 cars should go to C.I. (in total that would be 470 NTT's for the . The last 190 R160's would go to the  to put the 's 68's to bed.