Council proposal would let city residents ride LIRR, Metro North for $2.75

[Union Tpke]

 

City Council members are proposing a plan to let New York City residents pay $2.75 to ride Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North trains within city limits, but not everyone is on board.

Councilman Daneek Miller says making commuter-rail trips within the city the same price as a subway ride could help residents in low-income neighborhoods get to work faster and save money.

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But the MTA says it would lose $70 million a year if the plan goes through — in addition to the $271 million it already loses on paratransit services, $172 million on free rides for schoolkids, and $95 million lost to half-off senior citizen fares.

http://nypost.com/2015/11/12/council-proposal-would-let-city-residents-ride-lirr-metro-north-for-2-75/

 

 

 

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NOV

16

Calls grow louder for rationalizing commuter rail fares within New York CityBy Benjamin Kabak

We spend a lot of time talking about where New York City’s transit system goes and how it could be better, but we don’t spend too much time talking about where the transit doesn’t go. We know how current service could be improved, and we all have fantasy maps regarding planned service extensions. But we don’t always address the so-called transit deserts where transit riders have few options and commuters face long rides to job centers. 

At a time when affordability is a buzzword surrounding the political discourse in the city, these transit deserts stick out like a sore thumb, and last week, Ydanis Rodriguez, head of the City Council’s transportation committee, held a hearing on improving access. From light rail to ferries, the speakers ran the gamut of topics we’ve discussed over the past few years, and those facing questions responded adeptly. For instance, DOT Commissioner Polly Trottenberg spoke about how light rail involves more than just tracks and a line on a map; it involves, she explained, the need to invest in the infrastructure behind light rail and create a sustainable network. 

One idea though that has come up time and again over the years involves commuter rail access through New York City. When I was in Berlin and Paris this past summer, I had the opportunity to ride both the S-Bahn and RER trains, and for someone used to New York City’s concept of commuter rail, the European model is eye-opening. These trains enjoy the benefits of through-running through center city areas, and the fare structure is rationalized to encourage both intra-city and city-to-suburb travel. It didn’t cost me more to take the RER a few stops than it would have to make a similar trip on the Metro. 

Here, the LIRR and Metro-North do not share a fare structure with each other, let alone with New York City Transit, and those who board commuter rail lines within New York City pay a much higher — and often cost-prohibitive — fare. If our politicians have their ways, this practice would end, and riders would be able to use commuter rail trains within the boroughs for a much lower cost. The city is pushing aggressively to make this happen, and one MTA Board member is embracing the cause. 

As officials explained, last week, they want the MTA to reduce fares on intra-city travel and provide a free transfer from the LIRR or Metro-North to New York City Transit’s network. The MTA though is crying poverty. Agency Chairman and CEO Tom Prendergast claimed that such a move would cost the agency $70 million per year and that no one has yet identified how to cover the missing revenue. “We just can’t agree to accept that kind of loss especially since we already lose so much money on other services,” spokesman Adam Lisberg said to Gothamist. “This year we will lose $575 million on unreimbursed paratransit service as well as discounted fares for seniors and free rides for schoolchildren. When we start each year more than half a billion dollars in the hole, we don’t want to dig it any deeper.”

Allen Cappelli, the Board member who plans to bring up the issue during today’s committee meetings, doesn’t accept the cries of poverty. “Honestly, it sounds to me like seat-of-the-pants analysis and I think this issue warrants more than somebody’s best guess,” Cappelli said to the Daily News. “Now that money is, while tight, not as dire as it was, we ought to be looking for ways to improve service for people in our region.”

This debate of course gets to the heart of the conflict between the suburban-focused commuter rail and the city-centric subway system. Do suburban riders want city passengers hoping on board their commuter trains for a few stops? Do suburban riders want to see their trains slowed in order to make more stops to better serve inaccessible areas? Can MTA agencies work together on rational fare policies? These are questions that hit at the very essence of the MTA’s regional approach and haven’t been satisfactorily addressed in years. 

I expect this conversation to continue, especially as the MTA looks to reactivate certain LIRR stops in Queens and bring Metro-North into Penn Station via the Penn Station Access plan. Eventually, we have to move toward a European model. But can we get there without unnecessary kicking and screaming? We’ll find out soon.

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2015/11/16/calls-grow-louder-for-rationalizing-commuter-rail-fares-within-new-york-city/#comments

There is an interesting discussion on the bottom of the page. I wish we could have discussions like that here.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So they seriously want it to be $2.75?  While I live within City limits, I live a stone's throw from Westchester, so I consider myself to have more in common with folks in Westchester and I don't want the fare lowered that much.  Metro-North is for suburban commuters, which is why I use it.  If I wanted to pay $2.75 and ride packed cars, I would walk 20 minutes and take the train.  When Metro-North proposed and implemented service increases for Riverdale, one of the first things that I complained about to Fernando Ferrer along with other representatives was the fact the the trains were wayyy too crowded (like subways to be exact), as this was not that long ago.  Those of us who live in areas that don't have subways live there specifically for that reason, and I don't want Metro-North becoming the filth that is the subway. I gladly pay more to have a peaceful, civilized ride.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

If the fare is dropped within city limits, it should be similar to the express bus, or possibly $4.25, like the City Ticket. $2.75 is pretty small. I don't feel that people who use the railroad should be charged the same as a subway. 

[Around the Horn]

So they seriously want it to be $2.75?  While I live within City limits, I live a stone's throw from Westchester, so I consider myself to have more in common with folks in Westchester and I don't want the fare lowered that much.  Metro-North is for suburban commuters, which is why I use it.  If I wanted to pay $2.75 and ride packed cars, I would walk 20 minutes and take the train.  When Metro-North proposed and implemented service increases for Riverdale, one of the first things that I complained about to Fernando Ferrer along with other representatives was the fact the the trains were wayyy too crowded (like subways to be exact), as this was not that long ago.  Those of us who live in areas that don't have subways live there specifically for that reason, and I don't want Metro-North becoming the filth that is the subway. I gladly pay more to have a peaceful, civilized ride.

Yeah,I think it should be lower but it shouldn't be 2.75

[Union Tpke]

Maybe $3.00 –$3.50. This would really help serve undererved areas of Queens, and the Bronx as well with Penn Station Access. This could help reduce crowding on the .

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Riding the LIRR within the Queens limit $2.75? Knowing how the MTA is, it could not happen.

[R10 2952]

At that rate, it would just make more sense to lower the subway fare back to $2...

[MHV9218]

I think this is a great idea. Our asshat governor will never do anything to help fund it, but it's a great principle. And when the opposition is simple elitism...

 

 

Those of us who live in areas that don't have subways live there specifically for that reason, and I don't want Metro-North becoming the filth that is the subway.

 

...then you know there's not much of a case against it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think this is a great idea. Our asshat governor will never do anything to help fund it, but it's a great principle. And when the opposition is simple elitism...

 

 

 

 

...then you know there's not much of a case against it.

Commuter trains are more expensive because they offer a quicker and more comfortable commute, not to mention cleaner. The folks in tony Douglaston for example take the LIRR because it's the professional thing to do, and in Riverdale, we take the express bus or Metro-North for the same reason. You of all people have some nerve talking about elitism when you turn your nose up at those of us that like suburban living and don't want to live in Manhattan. We live further out because it's cleaner than Manhattan and less dense. If the LIRR and MNRR are going to be like the subways, that's the point of paying the higher fares?

[P3F]

We live further out because it's cleaner than Manhattan and less dense.

Riverdale is two miles from Manhattan. Not as far as you'd like to think.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Riverdale is two miles from Manhattan. Not as far as you'd like to think.

I am about 5 minutes from the Westchester border, so I'm right in between, but we certainly see ourselves as suburban in every sense and have more in common with Westchester than Manhattan, just as Douglaston and Little Neck are more aligned with Long Island.

[itmaybeokay]

"I want the fares to stay higher so I don't have to ride the train with COMMONERS". 

[CenSin]

I am about 5 minutes from the Westchester border, so I'm right in between, but we certainly see ourselves as suburban in every sense and have more in common with Westchester than Manhattan, just as Douglaston and Little Neck are more aligned with Long Island.

 

"I want the fares to stay higher so I don't have to ride the train with COMMONERS". 

You're both right! They are accurate perceptions. But what's wrong with Via Garibaldi 8 not wanting to mingle with the commoners? The real problem is that public-subsidized transit is not benefiting enough of the public. They should lower the fare enough to hit the sweet spot, but not enough that it simply becomes a super express subway within city limits.

[46Dover]

If the fare is dropped within city limits, it should be similar to the express bus, or possibly $4.25, like the City Ticket. $2.75 is pretty small. I don't feel that people who use the railroad should be charged the same as a subway.

I actually would think that it would cost the same as the Express Bus to travel within the city on the railroad

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You're both right! They are accurate perceptions. But what's wrong with Via Garibaldi 8 not wanting to mingle with the commoners? The real problem is that public-subsidized transit is not benefiting enough of the public. They should lower the fare enough to hit the sweet spot, but not enough that it simply becomes a super express subway within city limits.

 No, the real problem is that the city isn't investing in the subway system. $70 million dollars is pocket change vs. spending billions on subway improvements. 

"I want the fares to stay higher so I don't have to ride the train with COMMONERS".

 

Excuse me for wanting a civilized commute... The MNRR trains are already packed with the high fares, but at least most of the commuters are civilized in terms of being orderly. You lower the fare and open it up to the masses, and Metro-North will be just like the subways. Rat infested, and delayed. That seems to be what folks like yourself want though. The subway is a mess so let's destroy the commuter rails too so everyone has crappy commutes.

[Union Tpke]

Having the fare lowered would help some people from my school. Instead of taking the LIRR to the , they have to take the Q27 to the which takes a lot more time.

[Fresh Pond]

No, the real problem is that the city isn't investing in the subway system. $70 million dollars is pocket change vs. spending billions on subway improvements. Excuse me for wanting a civilized commute... The MNRR trains are already packed with the high fares, but at least most of the commuters are civilized in terms of being orderly. You lower the fare and open it up to the masses, and Metro-North will be just like the subways. Rat infested, and delayed. That seems to be what folks like yourself want though. The subway is a mess so let's destroy the commuter rails too so everyone has crappy commutes.

LMAO

[RailRunRob]

Not sure how I feel about the idea but starting with first principle and what we know to be true it may make sense.

 

 -This city and it's economy is growing and need adequate transportation to help continue this growth.

This seems to be a given.

 

 - In areas that are underserved by rapid transit there is an existing commuter infrastructure that could be repurposed.

Okay we know this to be a fact in Queens and Parts of the Bronx.

I guess the next question I would ask his what Is the limitations of this infrastructure. Maximum amount of Trains per hour? Would this affect existing ridership? Scheduling, routing, delays?  

Would this planned route get people to where they need to go. What about the last mile? Transfer's getting from GCT or PS to final destination?  The main question is could this be a cheaper alternative to building or extending existing subway trackage. ?

It's a reasonable question if the infrastructures already in place just going through the pros and cons.   It seems feasible it seems worth a look at lease.

 No, the real problem is that the city isn't investing in the subway system. $70 million dollars is pocket change vs. spending billions on subway improvements. Excuse me for wanting a civilized commute... The MNRR trains are already packed with the high fares, but at least most of the commuters are civilized in terms of being orderly. You lower the fare and open it up to the masses, and Metro-North will be just like the subways. Rat infested, and delayed. That seems to be what folks like yourself want though. The subway is a mess so let's destroy the commuter rails too so everyone has crappy commutes.

We've seen it work in London with the OverGround and soon the Crossrail and in Paris with the RER we couldn't we look into it here in NYC. We're getting to a point with the population boom were we have to balance comfort and function New York is going to choke itself out if it doesn't adapt point blank. If the money's not there to expand subways what would be your solution?

[CenSin]

Having the fare lowered would help some people from my school. Instead of taking the LIRR to the , they have to take the Q27 to the which takes a lot more time.

School kids are the worst bunch. I have seen them on the subways, and I would not like to see them on a more premium service. They make a lot of noise. What we'll start seeing next is subway performers on the LIRR—and you can't escape from those because the train makes so few stops.

[RailRunRob]

School kids are the worst bunch. I have seen them on the subways, and I would not like to see them on a more premium service. They make a lot of noise. What we'll start seeing next is subway performers on the LIRR—and you can't escape from those because the train makes so few stops.

Same  problem in other Cities New York's not special in anyway let's focus on if it's possible and feasible and then work our way down from there. Have you ever taken a LIRR train after a Rangers game? What about from LI towards the city on the weekend? Kids coming into Rockville Center or Penn station to party? Talk about loud and lewd.!  Let's focus on the data and what we can prove first and foremost shall we?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not sure how I feel about the idea but starting with first principle and what we know to be true it may make sense.

 

 -This city and it's economy is growing and need adequate transportation to help continue this growth.

This seems to be a given.

 

 - In areas that are underserved by rapid transit there is an existing commuter infrastructure that could be repurposed.

Okay we know this to be a fact in Queens and Parts of the Bronx.

I guess the next question I would ask his what Is the limitations of this infrastructure. Maximum amount of Trains per hour? Would this affect existing ridership? Scheduling, routing, delays?  

Would this planned route get people to where they need to go. What about the last mile? Transfer's getting from GCT or PS to final destination?  The main question is could this be a cheaper alternative to building or extending existing subway trackage. ?

It's a reasonable question if the infrastructures already in place just going through the pros and cons.   It seems feasible it seems worth a look at lease.

 

We've seen it work in London with the OverGround and soon the Crossrail and in Paris with the RER we couldn't we look into it here in NYC. We're getting to a point with the population boom were we have to balance comfort and function New York is going to choke itself out if it doesn't adapt point blank. If the money's not there to expand subways what would be your solution?

Europe is Europe and the US is the US.  Having lived in Europe, yes travel is very affordable because driving is discouraged and transportation is heavily subsidized and marketed, as the taxes in Western Europe tend to be high.  I have taken trips to Milan, Rome, Bologna, Turin, Genoa, Verona and the like from where I lived in Florence via Intercity trains or EuroStar (now called Frecciarossa), and most of those trips were all done for around 60€, except when I traveled to places in the South, but even going from Rome overnight to visit my father's family's town in Sicily, it was a very reasonable price.  I know what my solution would be.  I would inact congestion pricing for starters.  Do you see how many people are clogging up the damn roads with their gas guzzling cars? One person in a car, and this is the trend now. I would slap tolls on all bridges that don't currently have them, and have them evened out so that those in the suburban parts of the city like Staten Island have a reasonable toll.  

 

From there, I would scale back the prices for MNRR and LIRR in the city, but certainly not to $2.75.  Yes, it sounds great on paper, but the fact of the matter is the LIRR and MNRR has limited capacity as it is.  Have you seen how packed some trains are even with the current fares?  If they had so many trains around, they would be adding service, but they don't, and the question is where are these extra trains going to come from?  You don't just build them overnight.  This plan needs to be thought out carefully because as Tom Prendergast stated, you could have potentially dangerous situations with some stations being overwhelmed by too many riders.  I would make the price comparable but not exactly on par with the express bus at $7.50 (flat), $6.50 off-peak and keep the City Ticket at $4.00.  I'm not sure about giving out transfers yet either.  I would also give some incentives to those who use the train occasionally but buy packs of tickets, which the MNRR and LIRR currently don't do.  Then you also have to make the cost reasonable for the suburban commuters if you're going to get them on board.  These trains are mainly for those of us that either live in the suburbs OR live in suburban areas of the city.

[NY1635]

I don't see how letting city residents ride the LIRR or the MNRR for $2.75 is going to work, especially some some of those residents complain about not having enough money to pay the $2.75 fare on the local buses and subways.

[trainfan22]

I don't support this, only because there isn't capacity on the MTA commuter railroad for this, maybe if the MN/LIRR cars had bench seating like subway cars do, then yea implement this. but with the current way the commuter cars are setup, nah...

 

 

As for Rats coming into the MN system if they lower the fare... 99 percent of the MN system is outdoors, most of the subway rats live in the underground stations.

[RailRunRob]

Europe is Europe and the US is the US.  Having lived in Europe, yes travel is very affordable because driving is discouraged and transportation is heavily subsidized and marketed, as the taxes in Western Europe tend to be high.  I have taken trips to Milan, Rome, Bologna, Turin, Genoa, Verona and the like from where I lived in Florence via Intercity trains or EuroStar (now called Frecciarossa), and most of those trips were all done for around 60€, except when I traveled to places in the South, but even going from Rome overnight to visit my father's family's town in Sicily, it was a very reasonable price.  I know what my solution would be.  I would inact congestion pricing for starters.  Do you see how many people are clogging up the damn roads with their gas guzzling cars? One person in a car, and this is the trend now. I would slap tolls on all bridges that don't currently have them, and have them evened out so that those in the suburban parts of the city like Staten Island have a reasonable toll.  

 

From there, I would scale back the prices for MNRR and LIRR in the city, but certainly not to $2.75.  Yes, it sounds great on paper, but the fact of the matter is the LIRR and MNRR has limited capacity as it is.  Have you seen how packed some trains are even with the current fares?  If they had so many trains around, they would be adding service, but they don't, and the question is where are these extra trains going to come from?  You don't just build them overnight.  This plan needs to be thought out carefully because as Tom Prendergast stated, you could have potentially dangerous situations with some stations being overwhelmed by too many riders.  I would make the price comparable but not exactly on par with the express bus at $7.50 (flat), $6.50 off-peak and keep the City Ticket at $4.00.  I'm not sure about giving out transfers yet either.  I would also give some incentives to those who use the train occasionally but buy packs of tickets, which the MNRR and LIRR currently don't do.  Then you also have to make the cost reasonable for the suburban commuters if you're going to get them on board.  These trains are mainly for those of us that either live in the suburbs OR live in suburban areas of the city.

I understand your perspective.  In my opinion the problem here is that were using 20th-century logic. That doesn't really apply anymore that Europe's Europe statement doesn't really apply as well the world is global New York has more common places like Paris or Tokyo that other cities in his own country. It's All one big global economy. For New York to attract more people and businesses to its economy it has to grow it's transit in this case has to repurpose what it  already has in place. Tom is absolutely correct definitely has to be thought out. My question is where's the data? Trains are crowded understood perspective and observational data what can we do with that? What's the operational limits of the trackage? Can we operate more train safely and without slowing the existing schedule. Is LIRR and MNCR at it's operational limits? What's the project ridership? It's too early in the game for us to be saying yay nah, or leaning towards in conclusion all I'm saying is lets to our due diligence then come to a conclusion. Also what's your solution being we can't extend subways or repurposed commuter rail the problem still remains and needs to be solved.

[RailRunRob]

I don't support this, only because there isn't capacity on the MTA commuter railroad for this, maybe if the MN/LIRR cars had bench seating like subway cars do, then yea implement this. but with the current way the commuter cars are setup, nah...

 

 

As for Rats coming into the MN system if they lower the fare... 99 percent of the MN system is outdoors, most of the subway rats live in the underground stations.

Why couldn't you run a city shuttle so to speak. With service terminating at say a Yonkers or Valley Stream? Just expand the fleet with modified cars to accommodate more people for the city stops? This would be a fraction of the cost of actually building more trackage extending the subway This doesn't seem like it affect through service as much it's more like just sharing trackage in essence. VG8 might not like But it some stations within the city limits might have to share space with space on trains and lose some peak trains to LI or Westchester but the trains coming in from the suburbs could be generally unaffected if scheduled correctly. Hey like it or not Queens and Bronx are in the City! Once again what is the operation capacity and scheduling currently for train's? this could be worked in depending on headway.