The Official Systematic Merger: NYCT/MTA Bus

[T J Trainman]

Not happening the Unions will block that at all costs especially the ATU

[NewFlyer 230]

Aren't SC, JFK, and FR part of ATU? I don't see why they can't really shift around routes, especially with the C40 loans during sandy.

they are different ATU depots though so that is why they fought. JFK and FR are the same while SC is a different ATU Union.

[FLX9304]

Kingsbridge as barely enough room for articulated buses and extras. Plus it's an OA operated route. why would you put MCI coaches n that depot anyways?

I agree with TJ Trainman. Different unions prevent mergers. ATUs and these other guys can't work together

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Kingsbridge as barely enough room for articulated buses and extras. Plus it's an OA operated route. why would you put MCI coaches n that depot anyways?

 

I agree with TJ Trainman. Different unions prevent mergers. ATUs and these other guys can't work together

The only routes in which the transfer will not increase mileage and DH by much are the BxM4 and the BxM11 (I believe mileage is decreased for the BxM11, and mileage is relatively the same). The BxM1,2,3,18's DH's will increase significantly, however.

 

 

What I thought, is probably that LGA could run some of those trips, primarily on the BxM3. Select QM24 trips would DH back to BxM1, 2, and 3 Manhattan terminals, and then do their runs on those lines during the midday hours, and then they DH back to the QM24 (3 Avenue Branch) in the PM. The runs at LGA would have to be rewritten, but they're the same union, and the DH from ECH each time could be saved, and to/from LGA for some trips. ECH would run all other weekday service, and weekend service on those routes.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Kingsbridge as barely enough room for articulated buses and extras. Plus it's an OA operated route. why would you put MCI coaches n that depot anyways?

 

I agree with TJ Trainman. Different unions prevent mergers. ATUs and these other guys can't work together

I thought that every Bronx depot was TWU and the only OA depot around was 126 St, which closed almost a year ago.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Kingsbridge as barely enough room for articulated buses and extras. Plus it's an OA operated route. why would you put MCI coaches n that depot anyways?

 

Different unions prevent mergers. ATUs and these other guys can't work together

 

Not necessarily. Look at the history of the Q32...

 

Prior to 1994: all TWU.

 

1994 to June 2010: split TWU-ATU

 

since June 2010: all ATU.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Not necessarily. Look at the history of the Q32...

Prior to 1994: all TWU.

1994 to June 2010: split TWU-ATU

since June 2010: all ATU.

Correct. So in reality, anything can happen, even some Q8 trips from spring creek.

And if I'm correct, the Q52 is supposed to move from JFK to LGA despite both being in different unions.

[Fresh Pond]

I thought that every Bronx depot was TWU and the only OA depot around was 126 St, which closed almost a year ago.

Everything in the Bronx & Manhattan is MaBSTOA (Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operation Authority), except for 126 which was TA. Once that closed, Hale became TA.

 

...so they say. Dunno if Hale is now TA or still OA

[transit bx]

Everything in the Bronx & Manhattan is MaBSTOA (Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operation Authority), except for 126 which was TA. Once that closed, Hale became TA.

...so they say. Dunno if Hale is now TA or still OA

Hale is a OA depot there isn't a TA depot in the city anymore after 126 close down.

[BreeddekalbL]

hopefully the clowns at SC get smart and vote out 1181, 1181 sold them down the river 

[Future ENY OP]

hopefully the clowns at SC get smart and vote out 1181, 1181 sold them down the river

Hope SC could either go 1179 or TWU.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Hale is a OA depot there isn't a TA depot in the city anymore after 126 close down.

 

Yes, there are TA depots in Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island (all of which are part of "the city" and have been since 1898).

[Around the Horn]

Yes, there are TA depots in Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island (all of which are part of "the city" and have been since 1898).

the city is a common euphemism for Manhattan...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

the city is a common euphemism for Manhattan...

 

I know, and it's one of my pet peeves.

[transit bx]

Yes, there are TA depots in Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island (all of which are part of "the city" and have been since 1898).

I'm talking about the city as far as (Manhattan) depots, their isn't anymore TA in the city hale is a OA depot. I'm TA in a OA depot bruh..

[Grand Concourse]

Since we are talking about mergers, i would like to think the b100 would be moved to fb depot since the line runs in front of the main entrance. I dunno if there is a need to have both the b2 and b100 running west of flatbush av. I would think the b2 would be kept, but instead of going down toward the mall, duplicating the other lines, maybe it could go up utica and then turn onto fillmore and continue on in place of the b100.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Grand Concourse

[Rafa]

ATU is a worthless union with no backbones. In the past it was unthinkable to have splits on weekends but the fools allow that crap to happen. Imagine the folks who have to report to work on a Sunday doing a run paying 8 hours but they have a 2 hour split in between. And then having the operators who drive those run down artics on the q10 being paid only $.25 extra.

[East New York]

I'm going to address a lot of points in this thread. After reading all of your responses, I see quite a few of you actually do not know all of the inner working of MTA or the Unions, and you have quite a few of the facts wrong. First off, Brooklyn, Bronx, and Manhattan are the ONLY Transit depots that are TWU 100. 

 

TWU 106 - MTA NYC Transportation Bus Supervisors for all of MaBSTOA, and MTABC, and Queens Division

Surface Subway Supervisors Association (SSSA) represents the remaining depots citywide.

 

New York City Transit Authority (TA)

 

Brooklyn Division TWU 100

• East New York Depot - MTA RBO Surface Transit Headquarters, Command Center, CMF, Base Shops
• Fresh Pond Depot - Brooklyn Division Headquarters
• Grand Avenue Depot - Bus Engineering Headquarters, CMF

Queens Division ATU 1026

• Queens Village Depot - Queens Division Headquarters future Queens North Division Headquarters (post-merger)

Staten Island Division  ATU 726

• Yukon Depot - Staten Island Division Headquarters

 

Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority (OA)

 

Bronx Division TWU 100

• West Farms Depot - Bronx Division Headquarters

Manhattan Division TWU 100

• Michael J. Quill Depot - Manhattan Division Headquarters

 

MTA Bus Company (BC)

• Eastchester Depot - TWU 100, RBO Storage Facility
• Baisley Park Depot - TWU 100, BC Training Facility
• College Point - TWU 100, BC Division Headquarters
• Far Rockaway Depot - ATU 1179
• John F. Kennedy Depot - ATU 1179
• LaGuardia Depot - TWU 100, BC Training Facility, and future Queens South Division Headquarters (post-merger)
• Spring Creek Depot - ATU 1181, BC Training Facility

 

Wow great news, I'm glad progress is being made. It's hard to believe that it has been 10 years since the takeover. I remember riding Queens Surface routes and seeing GBL, Jamaica Bus and Triboro Coach GMC RTS.
I noticed now route transfers are being put on the maps of the MTA Bus schedules. I wonder if that had something to do with the merger?
Idk if the merger has anything to do with this but will this mean that the MTA bus routes in Queens have the updated bus signs at all the stops? I'm sure the MTA wants uniformity at stops and they would want the DOT to replace all the remaining old bus stop signs.

 

Eventually all signs will be changes, new bus shelters will be added as operations are paralleled. 

 

will labor/unions be affected like atu unions?

 

They will remain as listed above.

 

Sure don't think it took 10 years for Walgreens to take over Duane Reed and keep those stores operational.  But it takes 10 years for transit agencies to get all the kinks worked out and decide whether to put "NYCT" or "MTA Bus" on new buses.  Yes, something as simple as that (given the amount of shuffling of buses between depots happens) just cannot be done.

 

And as someone brought up in one of the SBS threads, since people in certain reaches of the city don't know SBS from an anthill on the pavement, it's not the customers who would care.  Outside of the enthusiasts here, who would really GAF over something as stupid as that.

 

But .... it's somehow extremely important to the whole entire way the MTA works.  There's a good example of why it takes 10+ years for these things to happen.  Jeez .... even the mob worked faster than this.

 

Lol. I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you here, but you comparing pharmacies to transit agencies is like comparing bananas to monkeys. This would be compared to a merger like Delta and Northwest Airlines. It's nowhere near as easy as it looks. So lets go over the history and operational side of this. Not a viewer/rider point of things. 

 

1. In 2006 the corporate merger was complete. Meaning all mas the same except for the fact that buses now carried MTA logos. It took 2 years to create a blended management structure.
2. Regional Bus Operations was formed in 2008 for the Operational and managerial merger of NYCT and MTABC.

Since 2008, MTA has integrated and streamlined most all operations of both divisions. However, all of you are saying what should be done, and how it should be done. Bus Company is a legal entity separate of the New York City Transit. So for all of you saying why does it take 10 years to merge anything when you don't know how things actually work.

 

For all operational and management purposes, contrary to popular belief, TA and BC have been merged for more than 7 years now. We also have to factor in how much it costs to replace an entire fleet of buses across all these different private lines. The MTA has done this since the first day they took over and now 99.9% of all the PBL equipment has been replaced. Every last Depot has received some type of upgrade, with many more to come over the next 1-3 years. 

 

Now lets talk about laws, regulations, and leasing agreements. By law the divisions have to be separate because they are individual legal entities that have agreements with the NYCDOT. When MTA took over the private lines, each of those individual companies were still subject to the terms of any contracts already in place. 

 

For example, I bet 99.9% of you didn't know that if MTA had just decided to do a full on merger they could have been sued by any number of contractors or service providers? For example, The contract for the radio systems, which are on different frequency bands than that of the NYCT didn't even expire till this year. So that means, the MTA is NOW able to merge that part of the operations as they will now seek a new contract covering all buses. 

 

Its funny you say who would really give a f@#$ about something as stupid as that when you actually have no clue as to how things actually work. As I type this from my best friends living room on the west side of Detroit and prepare for a tour of DDOT tour before I leave, I want to remind you that you have to look at things from another perspective. The major thing I always hear when I go to any Transit property is that the average rider thinks its just so easy to run a bus operation, when in fact it is not by any means. As a person who has personally worked with the Department of Buses, NYCDOT, conducted surveys, and had direct contact with the highest levels of management, I have been able to access the documents everyone does not see, and not as simple as many think.

 

With that being said, Branding means everything. The buses aren't titled MTA NYC Bus or MTA Bus for enthusiasts. This is ONLY a repeat of history as it took forever to merge OA and TA. Buses were titled MaBSTOA for legal reasons. Not to appeal to customers.

 

Next will be the systematic merger, and from what I am being told, Bus Company will operate almost exactly the same was as OA did after their systematic merger was complete.

 

Kingsbridge as barely enough room for articulated buses and extras. Plus it's an OA operated route. why would you put MCI coaches n that depot anyways?

I agree with TJ Trainman. Different unions prevent mergers. ATUs and these other guys can't work together

 

Different unions can work together at anytime. However most times than none, they choose not to.

 

Yes, there are TA depots in Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island (all of which are part of "the city" and have been since 1898).

 

Not accurate. See the top of this post.

 

ATU is a worthless union with no backbones. In the past it was unthinkable to have splits on weekends but the fools allow that crap to happen. Imagine the folks who have to report to work on a Sunday doing a run paying 8 hours but they have a 2 hour split in between. And then having the operators who drive those run down artics on the q10 being paid only $.25 extra.

 

I have to remind you all once again that an extra $.25 is a luxury. Are you aware that 99% of the transit agencies across the country do not offer a premium simple because one rives a bus that is 15 feet longer than an Express coach?

 

MTA is not by any means obligated to pay ANYONE extra just because they drive articulated buses, however they do this in good faith and people still complain. Operators at most all agencies don't even have this as an option.

Edited November 26, 2015 by East New York

[Blitz]

I'm going to address a lot of points in this thread. After reading all of your responses, I see quite a few of you actually do not know all of the inner working of MTA or the Unions, and you have quite a few of the facts wrong. First off, Brooklyn, Bronx, and Manhattan are the ONLY Transit depots that are TWU 100.

 

TWU 106 - MTA NYC Transportation Bus Supervisors for all of NYCT and MTABC

 

New York City Transit Authority (TA)

 

Brooklyn Division TWU 100

• East New York Depot - MTA RBO Surface Transit Headquarters, Command Center, CMF, Base Shops
• Fresh Pond Depot - Brooklyn Division Headquarters
• Grand Avenue Depot - Bus Engineering Headquarters, CMF

Queens Division ATU 1026

• Queens Village Depot - Queens Division Headquarters future Queens North Division Headquarters (post-merger)

Staten Island Division ATU 726

• Yukon Depot - Staten Island Division Headquarters

Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority (OA)

 

Bronx Division TWU 100

• West Farms Depot - Bronx Division Headquarters

Manhattan Division TWU 100

• Michael J. Quill Depot - Manhattan Division Headquarters

MTA Bus Company (BC)

 

• Eastchester Depot - TWU 100, RBO Storage Facility
• Baisley Park Depot - TWU 100, BC Training Facility
• College Point - TWU 100, BC Division Headquarters
• Far Rockaway Depot - ATU 1179
• John F. Kennedy Depot - ATU 1179
• LaGuardia Depot - TWU 100, BC Training Facility, and future Queens South Division Headquarters (post-merger)
• Spring Creek Depot - ATU 1181, BC Training Facility

 

Eventually all signs will be changes, new bus shelters will be added as operations are paralleled.

 

 

They will remain as listed above.

 

 

Lol. I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you here, but you comparing pharmacies to transit agencies is like comparing bananas to monkeys. This would be compared to a merger like Delta and Northwest Airlines. It's nowhere near as easy as it looks. So lets go over the history and operational side of this. Not a viewer/rider point of things.

 

• In 2006 the corporate merger was complete. Meaning all mas the same except for the fact that buses now carried MTA logos. It took 2 years to create a blended management structure.
• Regional Bus Operations was formed in 2008 for the Operational and managerial merger of NYCT and MTABC.

Since 2008, MTA has integrated and streamlined most all operations of both divisions. However, all of you are saying what should be done, and how it should be done. Bus Company is a legal entity separate of the New York City Transit. So for all of you saying why does it take 10 years to merge anything when you don't know how things actually work.

 

For all operational and management purposes, contrary to popular belief, TA and BC have been merged for more than 7 years now. We also have to factor in how much it costs to replace an entire fleet of buses across all these different private lines. The MTA has done this since the first day they took over and now 99.9% of all the PBL equipment has been replaced. Every last Depot has received some type of upgrade, with many more to come over the next 1-3 years.

 

Now lets talk about laws, regulations, and leasing agreements. By law the divisions have to be separate because they are individual legal entities that have agreements with the NYCDOT. When MTA took over the private lines, each of those individual companies were still subject to the terms of any contracts already in place.

 

For example, I bet 99.9% of you didn't know that if MTA had just decided to do a full on merger they could have been sued by any number of contractors or service providers? For example, The contract for the radio systems, which are on different frequency bands than that of the NYCT didn't even expire till this year. So that means, the MTA is NOW able to merge that part of the operations as they will now seek a new contract covering all buses.

 

Its funny you say who would really give a f@#$ about something as stupid as that when you actually have no clue as to how things actually work. As I type this from my best friends living room on the west side of Detroit and prepare for a tour of DDOT tour before I leave, I want to remind you that you have to look at things from another perspective. The major thing I always hear when I go to any Transit property is that the average rider thinks its just so easy to run a bus operation, when in fact it is not by any means. As a person who has personally worked with the Department of Buses, NYCDOT, conducted surveys, and had direct contact with the highest levels of management, I have been able to access the documents everyone does not see, and not as simple as many think.

 

With that being said, Branding means everything. The buses aren't titled MTA NYC Bus or MTA Bus for enthusiasts. This is ONLY a repeat of history as it took forever to merge OA and TA. Buses were titled MaBSTOA for legal reasons. Not to appeal to customers.

 

 

Different unions can work together at anytime. However most times than none, they choose not to.

 

 

Not accurate. See the top of this post.

 

 

I have to remind you all once again that an extra $.25 is a luxury. Are you aware that 99% of the transit agencies across the country do not offer a premium simple because one rives a bus that is 15 feet longer than an Express coach?

 

MTA is not by any means obligated to pay ANYONE extra just because they drive articulated buses, however they do this in good faith and people still complain. Operators at most all agencies don't even have this as an option.

Small correction...TWU 106 Covers OA, MTAB, and Queens Surface supervisors. Subway Surface Supervisor Association (SSSA) covers Brooklyn and Staten Island supervisors

[East New York]

Small correction...TWU 106 Covers OA, MTAB, and Queens Surface supervisors. Subway Surface Supervisor Association (SSSA) covers Brooklyn and Staten Island supervisors

 

Thanks! I forgot all bout SSSA. The edit is above.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

ATU is a worthless union with no backbones. In the past it was unthinkable to have splits on weekends but the fools allow that crap to happen. Imagine the folks who have to report to work on a Sunday doing a run paying 8 hours but they have a 2 hour split in between. And then having the operators who drive those run down artics on the q10 being paid only $.25 extra.

ATU is a hit or miss, IMO. In terms of being vocal, ATU 726 is one of the better ones out on Staten Island. 1179 is more neutral from what I've seen. ATU 1181 is an abomination as a Union for SC. Part of the reason is that it is mainly focused with School buses. They're not as focused with the transit operational aspect anymore, which is partially to blame for the intense cuts the BM's received. I don't know if management at SC is able to switch to another union, preferably TWU, since there are routes which could be switched around within Brooklyn. 

Edited November 26, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[JerBear]

Since it's mostly legal issues separating the depots and the routes assigned, couldn't the state legislature just pass some law creating one entity and nullifying any outstanding legal issues?

[East New York]

Since it's mostly legal issues separating the depots and the routes assigned, couldn't the state legislature just pass some law creating one entity and nullifying any outstanding legal issues?

No, it's not really that simple. You have seniority issues, labor issues, different unions, and TA is Civil Service whereas OA and BC are not. If it was this simple there would be no MaBSTOA and all would be NYCTA. It's a lot more complicated than simply changing a law.

[Union Tpke]

What happened when North Shore Bus Company, for example, was merged into the NYCTA?

[East New York]

What happened when North Shore Bus Company, for example, was merged into the NYCTA?

 

This was a bit different, however it's one of my favorite transit history stories. By 1930 NSB was the dominate provider of bus service in Queens as they switched over from Trolly cars. Shortly there after, they sold off a few routes to other private companies due to monetary issues after the Great Depression. By 1946 they again were the top operator in Queens, with Triboro Coach being #2.

 

In 1947, NBS bus operators, and other company employees went on strike which caused the company to go bankrupt. Because they were the largest operator and had such a vast network, the City asked the MTA to take over the operations.

 

Because the company was bankrupt, and was going to shutter operations as a legal entity, It is much different than the MTAB mergers, and even though it is still quite different, more resembles the MaBSTOA merger.

 

NYCTA absorbed the operation and was under no legal obligation to run it in any specific way. This was the Birth of NYCTA Queens Division, and the facilities would become the Jamaica Depot, which is the oldest "technical" bus depot in North America, and what is now the Casey Stengel Depot. For purposes of age, the East New York depot is actually the oldest, but it was a BMT car barn at first, and later on in the years they begin to house buses there as operations expanded.

 

North Shore Bus Routes prior to the creation of NYCTA Queens Division 

• Q1: Jamaica – Hillside Avenue – short lines (from Bee Line)
• Q2: Jamaica – Hollis Avenue – Hempstead Avenue to Belmont Park (from Bee Line)
• Q3: Jamaica – Hollis – JFK airport via Farmers Blvd. (from Bee Line)
• Q3A: Jamaica (Parsons Blvd. & Hillside Av.) – St. Albans – Cambria Heights via Murdoch & 113 Av. (renumbered 1988 to Q83 by MTA), (from Bee Line)
• Q4: Jamaica – Cambria Heights via Merrick & Linden Blvds. (from Bee Line)
• Q4A: Jamaica – Laurelton via Merrick Blvd. & 120 Ave. (renumbered 1988 to Q84 by MTA) (from Bee Line)
• Q5: Jamaica – Rosedale & Green Acres Shopping Mall via Merrick Blvd. (from Bee Line)
• Q5A: Jamaica – Rosedale via Rochdale Village and Bedell Street. (renumbered 1988 to Q85 by MTA), (from Bee Line)
• Q5AB: Jamaica – Locust Manor LIRR – Springfield Gardens (combined with Q5A and also renumbered 1988 to Q85 by MTA) (from Bee Line)
• Q5AS: Laurelton – Rosedale Shuttle (renumbered 1988 to Q86 by MTA Bus, then eliminated in 1995 due to low ridership), (from Bee Line)
• Q12: Flushing – Little Neck via Sanford Av. & Northern Blvd.
• Q12A: Little Neck LIRR Station – Floral Park via Little Neck Parkway (renumbered to Q79 by MTA, then eliminated due to low ridership and reinstated via compromise as part of the extended Q36 in 2013)
• Q13: Flushing – Bayside – Fort Totten via Northern & Bell Blvds. (1933)
• Q14: Flushing – Whitestone (1933) (eliminated in 2010 due to low ridership)
• Q15: Flushing – Whitestone – Beechhurst (1933)
• Q16: Flushing – Clearview – Fort Totten via Bayside Avenue, Francis Lewis & Willets Point Blvds. or Utopia Pkwy. (1933)
• Q17: Flushing – 188 Street & Jamaica
• Q17A: Jamaica – Little Neck via Utopia Pkwy & Horace Harding Blvd. (renumbered 1988 to Q30 by MTA)
• Q23: 108th Street, Corona-Ditmars Avenue (before 1933); originally North Shore, transferred first to Kings Coach Company (1931), then to Triboro Coach Corp. in 1936, then to MTA Bus in 2005
• Q26: Flushing – Auburndale via Hollis Court Blvd.
• Q27: Flushing – Rosewood – Queens Village & Cambria Heights via Springfield Blvd.
• Q28: Flushing – Bayside West (before 1933)
• Q31: Jamaica – Bayside West
• Q36: Jamaica – Floral Park via Hillside & Jamaica Avenues.
• Q42: Jamaica – Addisleigh Park via Sayres Av.
• Q43: Jamaica LIRR Station – Hillside Av. to City Line.
• Q44: Jamaica – Bronx.
• Q44A: Union Turnpike – Kew Gardens – Lake Success & Glen Oaks (renumbered 1990 to Q46 by MTA)
• Q44B: Malba Shuttle (eliminated 1990 due to low ridership)
• Q44FS: Flushing – College Point Shuttle (renumbered 1990 to Q20, then in 1998 to Q20A & Q20B by MTA, and extended to Jamaica)
• Q44VP: Union Turnpike – Kew Gardens & Vleigh Place Shuttle (renumbered 1990 to Q74 by MTA, then eliminated in 2010 due to low ridership)
• Q48: Flushing – LaGuardia Airport began operating April 5, 1940 as one of the first routes developed for Queens under the MTA's watch.