Will we ever see those Select Bus Service facts?

[BrooklynBus]

 

The title of Joel Kuszai’s opinion piece supporting Select Bus Service on Woodhaven Boulevard (Nov. 19, South Queens edition) is “Let’s wait for the facts on the SBS proposal.” I am against SBS on Woodhaven and Cross Bay and also have been waiting for the facts.

 

Read more

 

http://www.qchron.com/opinion/columns/will-we-ever-see-those-select-bus-service-facts/article_83c9390e-e5ac-5fc7-ac28-14dfae3637b6.html

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Is Kuzsai dumb? Apparently, he hasn't been on the Q53 Limited. Yesterday morning, I had to enter the Q53 Bus from the back because it was very crowded at the entire bus. As soon the bus reach full capacity, people at the approaching stops enter from the rear. SBS is most definitely needed on Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvds. When New Flyer XD60 arrives within the following year, Q52-JFK Depot, Q53-Baisely Park Depot. Orion VIIs and New Flyer C40FL cannot withstand the congestion within their buses.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Another Anti-SBS rant in 3,2,1.....

[Around the Horn]

Is Kuzsai dumb? Apparently, he hasn't been on the Q53 Limited. Yesterday morning, I had to enter the Q53 Bus from the back because it was very crowded at the entire bus. As soon the bus reach full capacity, people at the approaching stops enter from the rear. SBS is most definitely needed on Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvds. When New Flyer XD60 arrives within the following year, Q52-JFK Depot, Q53-Baisely Park Depot. Orion VIIs and New Flyer C40FL cannot withstand the congestion within their buses.

An extension of the or is needed on the parallel Rockaway Beach branch...No need for SBS.

[MysteriousBtrain]

An extension of the or is needed on the parallel Rockaway Beach branch...No need for SBS.

That depends on how the NIMBYs react to the line.

Let's say the branch gets renovated and can be used for revenue service. If so what would be the "appropriate route" to use the branch, since both routes that could use the route can't easily use the line full time?

SBS is most definitely needed on Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvds. When New Flyer XD60 arrives within the following year, Q52-JFK Depot, Q53-Baisely Park Depot. Orion VIIs and New Flyer C40FL cannot withstand the congestion within their buses.

We don't know if the Q53 will head to BP just yet. IIRC LGA is supposed to get a batch as well.

[Around the Horn]

That depends on how the NIMBYs react to the line.

Let's say the branch gets renovated and can be used for revenue service. If so what would be the "appropriate route" to use the branch, since both routes that could use the route can't easily use the line full time?

We don't know if the Q53 will head to BP just yet. IIRC LGA is supposed to get a batch as well.

I say .It gives Broadway Line and lower Manhattan a direct train to JFK .

Run It late nights the entire length and have the replace the local to Forest Hills on weekends and late nights...

[TransitJusticeForAll]

I say .It gives Broadway Line and lower Manhattan a direct train to JFK .

Run It late nights the entire length and have the replace the local to Forest Hills on weekends and late nights...

I wouldn't touch those trains. Just create the SBS route.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

How is the line gonna be connected to the QBL, or create connections to any other subway service at the very least? Furthermore, how are the trains gonna be routed if there's so much development that has occurred north of Metropolitan. When I used to live in Forest Hills, I remember there being a baseball field not too far from where I lived, and the area where the tracks passed are around the walking area and field, that will make it barely usable for probably even one track. On Union Turnpike, there's another baseball field and a Stop & Shop parking lot there, and on top of that, there's only one usable track at that point, until about Myrtle. Past that, it has to pass Crescent Apartments property, even more sports fields, and the Jackie Robinson Parkway. The line is disconnected from Atlantic to 97th, because a school bus company owns that property, and you're left with a huge bill, and you need to get people who own all the properties to sell parts or their entire property, which would not fly by with a a good portion of them. 

 

If there's a huge demand or need for subway in the future, that can happen, but at this point, SBS is the most efficient solution. IMO, Woodhaven needs artics on the Q52 and Q53, and some Q11/21's on weekdays. SBS would be a nice addition, however I wish they chose a different concept over the one that they chose.

[B46 via Utica]

An extension of the or is needed on the parallel Rockaway Beach branch...No need for SBS.

 

IMO the should implement SBS bus service instead the or aren't really needed on the Rockaway Beach line just to benefit people with tones of bus service it would just be a waist of money.

[B35 via Church]

SBS preventing deaths.... What kind of sh....

 

I would not have taken this seriously enough to write an article countering this guy's assertions.... So this is one of yet another somebody drinking the kool aid & you are in disagreement of yet some other somebody that possesses such lofty views about the service that is SBS....

 

All you need to know is that the man first learned about the thing in 2014....

[Cait Sith]

Is Kuzsai dumb? Apparently, he hasn't been on the Q53 Limited. Yesterday morning, I had to enter the Q53 Bus from the back because it was very crowded at the entire bus. As soon the bus reach full capacity, people at the approaching stops enter from the rear. SBS is most definitely needed on Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvds. When New Flyer XD60 arrives within the following year, Q52-JFK Depot, Q53-Baisely Park Depot. Orion VIIs and New Flyer C40FL cannot withstand the congestion within their buses.

 

Slow your role. Q53 aint going to Baisley Park....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Is Kuzsai dumb? Apparently, he hasn't been on the Q53 Limited. Yesterday morning, I had to enter the Q53 Bus from the back because it was very crowded at the entire bus. As soon the bus reach full capacity, people at the approaching stops enter from the rear. SBS is most definitely needed on Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvds. When New Flyer XD60 arrives within the following year, Q52-JFK Depot, Q53-Baisely Park Depot. Orion VIIs and New Flyer C40FL cannot withstand the congestion within their buses.

Is English your first language? Some of your sentences make no sense at all, and are quite difficult to read. If it is your first language, it would help if you and a few other members took the time to re-read what you write.

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Is English your first language? Some of your sentences make no sense at all, and are quite difficult to read. If it is your first language, it would help if you and a few other members took the time to re-read what you write.

Everything I said on the previous post made sense and its the TRUTH. Maybe you have trouble reading and comprehend what was being said. All I said was that Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds need SBS because the LTD routes get highly congested and people keep constantly entering the back due to this congestion of a route. So before you say something , understand what is being said first.

 

Slow your role. Q53 aint going to Baisley Park....

Excuse Me. It MIGHT go there or to LGA Depot when more XD60s arrive. That's a FACT.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Everything I said on the previous post made sense and its the TRUTH. Maybe you have trouble reading and comprehend what was being said. All I said was that Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds need SBS because the LTD routes get highly congested and people keep constantly entering the back due to this congestion of a route. So before you say something , understand what is being said first.

That's precisely the problem. Your grammar is atrocious. Crowded at the entire bus?? You really think that's proper English??? Smh

[Fresh Pond]

Excuse Me. It MIGHT go there or to LGA Depot when more XD60s arrive. That's a FACT.

More then likely back to LGA it goes.

 

...and how can you say "might" then turn around and say "fact" in the same statement?

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

Everything I said on the previous post made sense and its the TRUTH. Maybe you have trouble reading and comprehend what was being said. All I said was that Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds need SBS because the LTD routes get highly congested and people keep constantly entering the back due to this congestion of a route. So before you say something , understand what is being said first.

Excuse Me. It MIGHT go there or to LGA Depot when more XD60s arrive. That's a FACT.

 

Nothing is a fact. IT's the MTA, remember? They constantly change their minds.

 

And chill the f**k out boii we're not fighting you, we just disagree with some of the stuff you're saying. No need to get all defensive...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

IMO the should implement SBS bus service instead the or aren't really needed on the Rockaway Beach line just to benefit people with tones of bus service it would just be a waist of money.

 

Putting or trains on the Rockaway Beach Line could remove those "tons of bus service" from Woodhaven — which seems to be what the "community" actually wants.

[bstar1]

Putting or trains on the Rockaway Beach Line could remove those "tons of bus service" from Woodhaven — which seems to be what the "community" actually wants.

Plus how would merge with Rockaway (A)'s

[BrooklynBus]

SBS preventing deaths.... What kind of sh....

 

I would not have taken this seriously enough to write an article countering this guy's assertions.... So this is one of yet another somebody drinking the kool aid & you are in disagreement of yet some other somebody that possesses such lofty views about the service that is SBS....

 

All you need to know is that the man first learned about the thing in 2014....

He is following the party line of Riders Alliance and Transportation Alternatives. At the risk of raising your blood pressure, here is one of the articles from Streetsblog.

 

http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/09/29/ta-woodhavens-crash-stats-show-urgent-need-for-brt-redesign/

Everything I said on the previous post made sense and its the TRUTH. Maybe you have trouble reading and comprehend what was being said. All I said was that Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds need SBS because the LTD routes get highly congested and people keep constantly entering the back due to this congestion of a route. So before you say something , understand what is being said first. Excuse Me. It MIGHT go there or to LGA Depot when more XD60s arrive. That's a FACT.

Just because the Limiteds are crowded, that is not a case for SBS. It is a case for more frequent service or articulated buses. Many other factors go into deciding if SBS is warranted.

[bstar1]

Probably helps to reduce crowding at bus stops.

[DetSMART45]

Anyone want to address the basic question BrooklynBus asks?  That being, just exactly HOW has SBS truly benefitted the ridership after the countless investments?  You guys seem to forget:  YOU are paying for all of this, and if you're getting nothing except promises of "faster" service (i.e. 5 minutes shaved off a route) then are you REALLY getting anything different?

 

Every one of you who rail against BrooklynBus: I'll challenge you to PROVE that SBS service has actually solved any problems that the MTA and DOT have said it would.  Start digging through the figures, let's see some black and white proof.  Some of you know plenty about the system, now it's your turn to shine, with your history to guide you.  And, please, pick some routes outside of Manhattan core.  That's a non-starter.

 

The upcoming Q44 schedule is timed out at 7 whole minutes less than the current Limited schedule.  Not exactly a HUGE improvement in my opinion.  At least MTA and DOT are meeting your expectations -- you'll get fresh buses, enter/exit on three doors, have painted lanes that'll fade in a year (which you'll pay to repaint again and again) ......... all those hundreds of thousands of dollars to save 7 whole minutes.

 

You'd get more for your money at the track.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Anyone want to address the basic question BrooklynBus asks?  That being, just exactly HOW has SBS truly benefitted the ridership after the countless investments?  You guys seem to forget:  YOU are paying for all of this, and if you're getting nothing except promises of "faster" service (i.e. 5 minutes shaved off a route) then are you REALLY getting anything different?

 

Every one of you who rail against BrooklynBus: I'll challenge you to PROVE that SBS service has actually solved any problems that the MTA and DOT have said it would.  Start digging through the figures, let's see some black and white proof.  Some of you know plenty about the system, now it's your turn to shine, with your history to guide you.  And, please, pick some routes outside of Manhattan core.  That's a non-starter.

 

The upcoming Q44 schedule is timed out at 7 whole minutes less than the current Limited schedule.  Not exactly a HUGE improvement in my opinion.  At least MTA and DOT are meeting your expectations -- you'll get fresh buses, enter/exit on three doors, have painted lanes that'll fade in a year (which you'll pay to repaint again and again) ......... all those hundreds of thousands of dollars to save 7 whole minutes.

 

You'd get more for your money at the track.

The only question that needs to be asked is that to riders of SBS routes and that question is, would they rather have service under the SBS setup or the LTD/Crosstown service that existed before? These improvements are supposed to benefit riders, so questions like why was only 7 minutes cut off of a long winded route miss the point. If the riders like SBS who cares if the MTA or DOT promised certain things that only transit nerds would care to follow up on. If the riders don't like SBS then a concerted effort has to be made to figure out what they are looking for in terms of quality bus service and do the best job possible at providing that. Instead of pushing the MTA and DOT for stats we needs to be brought to the forefront is rider sentiment on routes that have had SBS service established for a while. 

[DetSMART45]

The only question that needs to be asked is that to riders of SBS routes and that question is, would they rather have service under the SBS setup or the LTD/Crosstown service that existed before? These improvements are supposed to benefit riders, so questions like why was only 7 minutes cut off of a long winded route miss the point. If the riders like SBS who cares if the MTA or DOT promised certain things that only transit nerds would care to follow up on. If the riders don't like SBS then a concerted effort has to be made to figure out what they are looking for in terms of quality bus service and do the best job possible at providing that. Instead of pushing the MTA and DOT for stats we needs to be brought to the forefront is rider sentiment on routes that have had SBS service established for a while. 

There is much to drill down into regarding SBS over Local/Limited -- it's not just about the 7 minutes.  Look at the street factors affecting the routes as well, before and after.  Does traffic flow smoother or have more bottlenecks been caused?  Have time savings to customers really been that drastic?  Buses that don't bunch anymore?  Sure you could point to no long lines waiting to dip Metrocards, but that alone (one of the core selling points of SBS) should result in a whole lot more than 7 minutes to be saved.  On the Q44, the only section that got stops cut was from Parsons/20 Av north and into the Bronx.  All other Limited stops along the route are maintained.  Going by the way most routes are set up -- using the "bell curve" model -- your higher ridership portions along Main St are not seeing anything different.  If you're carving out special bus lanes while keeping the same stops serviced, there should be some difference made.  And let's not forget, Local buses will be using those bus lanes as well, so Local should also be impacted.  We'll see when the Q20 schedule is released/revised if that happens.

 

Let's hear from regular riders of Bx12, Bx41, B44 with before and after stories and contrast those to what the MTA and DOT promised.  Concentrate on the heavy-use segments of the routes, especially during Peak.  How have things become better, outside of prepayment factors?  Buses running on-time and traffic flow smoother where bus lanes have been planted?  Ride speed increased?  Loads more evenly distributed between Local and SBS?

 

The customers should have experiences that match what MTA says about the service.  If posts here are an indication, that's not happening.  What transit enthusiasts observe and react to should play a big factor in service decisions, since they're seeing things the general public doesn't or wouldn't consider.  Those critiques are what help the service become better overall.  In some ways, the MTA probably views places like this as "not important."  But those here are the customers they should be impressing the most.

 

Back in my retail days, I used to read/post on various retail employee boards online.  Everyone, for the most part, kept their identities secret because the companies read the posts, and people feared repercussions in the workplace.  But I can guarantee you that the proactive companies used to change things when they got poor feedback from their employees.  Why? Because those were the people who would be influencing the regular customers on the sales floor.  Plus they saw the flaws that customers may eventually be soured on or abuse.  That's something that "focus groups" or suits sitting around a big expensive conference room table don't see.

 

It's the same here.  And the MTA is doing itself a big disservice if the voices here are being ignored.  With this whole SBS stuff, that's what is appearing to be happening.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

There is much to drill down into regarding SBS over Local/Limited -- it's not just about the 7 minutes. Look at the street factors affecting the routes as well, before and after. Does traffic flow smoother or have more bottlenecks been caused? Have time savings to customers really been that drastic? Buses that don't bunch anymore? Sure you could point to no long lines waiting to dip Metrocards, but that alone (one of the core selling points of SBS) should result in a whole lot more than 7 minutes to be saved. On the Q44, the only section that got stops cut was from Parsons/20 Av north and into the Bronx. All other Limited stops along the route are maintained. Going by the way most routes are set up -- using the "bell curve" model -- your higher ridership portions along Main St are not seeing anything different. If you're carving out special bus lanes while keeping the same stops serviced, there should be some difference made. And let's not forget, Local buses will be using those bus lanes as well, so Local should also be impacted. We'll see when the Q20 schedule is released/revised if that happens.

 

Let's hear from regular riders of Bx12, Bx41, B44 with before and after stories and contrast those to what the MTA and DOT promised. Concentrate on the heavy-use segments of the routes, especially during Peak. How have things become better, outside of prepayment factors? Buses running on-time and traffic flow smoother where bus lanes have been planted? Ride speed increased? Loads more evenly distributed between Local and SBS?

 

The customers should have experiences that match what MTA says about the service. If posts here are an indication, that's not happening. What transit enthusiasts observe and react to should play a big factor in service decisions, since they're seeing things the general public doesn't or wouldn't consider. Those critiques are what help the service become better overall. In some ways, the MTA probably views places like this as "not important." But those here are the customers they should be impressing the most.

 

 

It's the same here. And the MTA is doing itself a big disservice if the voices here are being ignored. With this whole SBS stuff, that's what is appearing to be happening.

Just saying, 7 minutes saves a little more than $40 per trip. If every trip saves 7 minutes, then that is a significant amount of savings in each direction. Now, the savings is "reinvested" into the addition of Q20 night service. This benefits College Point, which only had the Q65, or the Q25 on the other side of the neighborhood. This benefits more than just the people on the Main Street corridor, because communities like College Point get more service. SBS stops on Main Street get 50% more service at night, which are the heaviest stops in terms of ridership anyways.

 

The Q20 will also probably see a slight decrease in runtime too, so it would offset most of the added overnight costs. Operationally, the net cost is probably slightly more to neutral running the buses, while the machines and police force obviously brings the costs up.

 

In the end, more riders will end benefiting from the Q44 SBS, and it won't just be Q44 riders.

[BrooklynBus]

Thank you DetSmart45 for your excellent post. Maybe it takes someone from outside NYC to really see what is going on here.

 

SBS supporters are blinded by the fact that they support SBS and refuse to look at it objectively as you have done. All they know us that they support it, it is good, and they don't want to hear anything to the contrary. Last week an NYC councilman stated that he supports SBS because it works as if that is a known fact. Well it is not a known fact. I would like to think that I am objective.

 

I am not going to dismiss a bus saving 7 minutes as insignificant. But you have to ask what it takes to achieve that time savings. I used the B46 everyday when going to college. There was a a no standing rush hours sign on the two blocks prior to the subway so an extra lane could be created which was used mainy by buses, though some cars used it also. When the lane was clear, the bus sailed through. When only one car was parked, we lost five minutes. So in this case a short two block extra lane that wasn't even a bus lane saved a full five minutes when drivers obeyed the signs. What are we talking about here? Miles of bus lanes to save 7 minutes and extra equipment and enforcement and additional operating costs to save seven minutes?

 

And that only means the MTA saves on bus operating costs with a shorter running time. If passengers have to walk three or four minutes to and from the bus stop because SBS stops are spaced further apart, all the savings for the passenger evaporates. Add to that the fact that enforcement costs a pretty penny. It costs about $2 million more each year to operate an SBS route over a local route, so the MTA does not benefit either. Not to mention the question of fare evasion. Since drivers won't wait for someone buying his ticket, some passengers have been seen giving them theirs so they wouldn't miss the bus.

 

Also if someone does just miss a bus cause he has to pre-pay, there goes his 7 minute savings anyway. So someone who has to walk further and also misses his bus has a slower trip with SBS.

 

Then someone talked about customer satisfaction. The MTA did a one time survey of a few hundred people like five years ago and they continually point to it saying everyone loves SBS. They ask you to rate it on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most satisfied. If you give it a 6 which is pretty much a neutral rating, you are considered 100% satisfied. If 98% of the people rate it slightly better than neutral, then the MTA reports 98% of the riders favorably approve SBS. That is really a pass fail survey, not a satisfaction survey. Everything the MTA and DOT are doing is attempting to distort the truth and too many are falling for it because they are not able to view this objectively like you DetSmart45.