Woodhaven Blvd. Q52/53 SBS Discussion

[BrooklynBus]

Well if you have dogs crap on your property, would you leave it there for the next person to step in, or would you clean it up?  We have dog crap on my street also, but the homeowners, and supers clean it up and they clean the streets to keep them nice.  I live in Central Riverdale, so I'm close to the commercial strips, so sanitation comes around and sweeps those streets regularly.  I'm also active in my neighborhood.  We had a garbage problem because the cans fill up so fast.  I wrote to my elected officials and the issue was addressed immediately.  Within a week after I wrote in, I saw the area in question cleaned up, hosed down and it's been much better since then.  Those people in Woodhaven are indeed the problem.  They don't speak up so nothing gets done, in addition to having nasty people there.  You have to take pride in where you live because if you don't, no one else will.

You are lucky Sanitation was responsive. Here people as well as elected officials have been complaining about the dirty conditions on Avenue U and Shhepsheadbites Bay Road for years. They make some improvements for a few weeks, and when the spotlight is off, it's the same old story.

[BrooklynBus]

I mean, the politicians not willing to actually commit to some rational funding plan that doesn't consist of "Downstate gets $8B, so Upstate deserves $8B too!" is a problem way bigger than the MTA. This isn't the UK, where every project gets subjected to a rigorous cost-benefits analysis down to the line items courtesy of Margaret Thatcher.

 

Amtrak, the feds, NY, and NJ are dropping $20B on another pair of Hudson River Tunnels, but that's a nationally important project that is well deserving of investment (and most of that cost comes from having to condemn a block of Manhattan for a train station, so it's not too ridiculous)

It's always so easy to find excuses to always let the MTA off the hook. Okay, they can't get all the funding they need. But they can do what is cst effective. Opening closed subway entrances is a no brainer and should have been done when MetroCard Gold was instituted since the original reasons for closing them (high crime and the need for a station agent) were no longer needed. So now the MTA first announces they will study it and that will take them three years and then they will finally agree, do it at a snails pace so it will take another ten or twenty years to reopen them. Would that be someone else's fault also?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You are lucky Sanitation was responsive. Here people as well as elected officials have been complaining about the dirty conditions on Avenue U and Shhepsheadbites Bay Road for years. They make some improvements for a few weeks, and when the spotlight is off, it's the same old story.

lol... Listen I grew up in Sheepshead Bay, and both Avenue U and Sheepshead Bay Rd have become progressively dirtier as the natives  like myself left and the Russians and Asians moved in.  The Russians smoke like it's no tomorrow, as do the Chinese along Avenue U. Cigarette butts everywhere.  Every time I'm down there it looks worse along Sheepshead Bay Rd. No one washes down their sidewalks.  How can they expect Sanitation to do everything?  The shop owners have to do their part too.  What you misunderstood is that Sanitation doesn't just come along just because.  Our elected officials in my neighborhood have dedicated funding to our commercial areas to keep them up and also contacted the stores in question to keep up the pressure on them to do their part in keeping their sidewalks cleaner.  The elected officials there in Sheepshead Bay should be doing something similar, but why would they when the shop owners and residents overall don't seem to care?

 

 

 

It's always so easy to find excuses to always let the MTA off the hook. Okay, they can't get all the funding they need. But they can do what is cst effective. Opening closed subway entrances is a no brainer and should have been done when MetroCard Gold was instituted since the original reasons for closing them (high crime and the need for a station agent) were no longer needed. So now the MTA first announces they will study it and that will take them three years and then they will finally agree, do it at a snails pace so it will take another ten or twenty years to reopen them. Would that be someone else's fault also?

Well station agents cost money.  They're not free.  What exactly is opening up more subway entrances supposed to do?  The already overpays workers as it is with the bloated benefits.  I would rather see more station cleaners than token booth clerks.  Most of them are rude, and useless, especially with the MVM machines all about.  I can refill my own Metrocard.  Or better yet, hire some supervisors to go around and supervise all of those cleaners I see sitting and reading the newspaper instead of actually cleaning.

[bobtehpanda]

It's always so easy to find excuses to always let the MTA off the hook. Okay, they can't get all the funding they need. But they can do what is cst effective. Opening closed subway entrances is a no brainer and should have been done when MetroCard Gold was instituted since the original reasons for closing them (high crime and the need for a station agent) were no longer needed. So now the MTA first announces they will study it and that will take them three years and then they will finally agree, do it at a snails pace so it will take another ten or twenty years to reopen them. Would that be someone else's fault also?

 

The MTA is a creature of the state; most of its problems are the state's fault. Inefficiency in contracting? This is a NYS government problem, not just MTA; look at how much the Tappan Zee replacement is costing, and how much Gateway is costing compared to peer projects. Inefficiency in union staffing when it comes to construction projects? I'm pretty sure the MTA does not directly negotiate with the construction unions, either.

 

Sure, adding station entrances is cost effective, but the agency has enough on its plate as it is. Remember how much of a hassle it was to get the current Capital Plan funded? Now imagine adding more to that; we probably would be way more than the year behind we are currently. They should cut costs, but since the current Capital Plan has already been approved that ship has sailed, and it's unclear as to how exactly they would do that under the current state-mandated bidding setup and the state of the construction industry in the city.

 

The study is necessary if the MTA is using federal funding to reopen station entrances/build new ones (which is probably the case, since they're broke when it comes to capital funding). Federal projects have to go through environmental review and alternatives analysis, which slows down a lot of projects but also prevents absolutely terrible, expensive, and environmentally destructive ones from progressing, like Westway. And if they're doing it with federal funding, they're operating under the Americans with Disabilities Act, so any new entrance has to be ADA accessible, and they have to scope out how exactly they are going to do that. And this is before any environmental laws the state may have on the books that go above and beyond federal law. And so on and so forth.

 

It's very fun to use the MTA as a poaching bag, but the MTA is literally a creation of the state, and a good portion of why the MTA is the way it is is because of the inadequacy of the state to deal with its problems. These problems did not exist when Richard Ravitch and Hugh Carey were in charge, because they were actually committed to knocking heads together and solving the MTA's problems. Meanwhile, Cuomo just kowtows to the LIRR union demands for more pay and no work rule changes, and then is a year late and a dollar short saying he'll issue $8B in bonds for the MTA's Capital Plan, instead of coming up with a long-term solution. He doesn't even trust his own agency head to make important executive decisions.

[BrooklynBus]

lol... Listen I grew up in Sheepshead Bay, and both Avenue U and Sheepshead Bay Rd have become progressively dirtier as the natives  like myself left and the Russians and Asians moved in.  The Russians smoke like it's no tomorrow, as do the Chinese along Avenue U. Cigarette butts everywhere.  Every time I'm down there it looks worse along Sheepshead Bay Rd. No one washes down their sidewalks.  How can they expect Sanitation to do everything?  The shop owners have to do their part too.  What you misunderstood is that Sanitation doesn't just come along just because.  Our elected officials in my neighborhood have dedicated funding to our commercial areas to keep them up and also contacted the stores in question to keep up the pressure on them to do their part in keeping their sidewalks cleaner.  The elected officials there in Sheepshead Bay should be doing something similar, but why would they when the shop owners and residents overall don't seem to care?

 

Well station agents cost money.  They're not free.  What exactly is opening up more subway entrances supposed to do?  The already overpays workers as it is with the bloated benefits.  I would rather see more station cleaners than token booth clerks.  Most of them are rude, and useless, especially with the MVM machines all about.  I can refill my own Metrocard.  Or better yet, hire some supervisors to go around and supervise all of those cleaners I see sitting and reading the newspaper instead of actually cleaning.

 

The elected officials have done what you suggest to try to educate the immigrant store owners. Don't believe it helped any.

 

As far as opening station entrances, you missed my point. With MetroCard no new agents would be needed as was the case before MetroCard when they were needed.

[BrooklynBus]

The MTA is a creature of the state; most of its problems are the state's fault. Inefficiency in contracting? This is a NYS government problem, not just MTA; look at how much the Tappan Zee replacement is costing, and how much Gateway is costing compared to peer projects. Inefficiency in union staffing when it comes to construction projects? I'm pretty sure the MTA does not directly negotiate with the construction unions, either.

 

Sure, adding station entrances is cost effective, but the agency has enough on its plate as it is. Remember how much of a hassle it was to get the current Capital Plan funded? Now imagine adding more to that; we probably would be way more than the year behind we are currently. They should cut costs, but since the current Capital Plan has already been approved that ship has sailed, and it's unclear as to how exactly they would do that under the current state-mandated bidding setup and the state of the construction industry in the city.

 

The study is necessary if the MTA is using federal funding to reopen station entrances/build new ones (which is probably the case, since they're broke when it comes to capital funding). Federal projects have to go through environmental review and alternatives analysis, which slows down a lot of projects but also prevents absolutely terrible, expensive, and environmentally destructive ones from progressing, like Westway. And if they're doing it with federal funding, they're operating under the Americans with Disabilities Act, so any new entrance has to be ADA accessible, and they have to scope out how exactly they are going to do that. And this is before any environmental laws the state may have on the books that go above and beyond federal law. And so on and so forth.

 

It's very fun to use the MTA as a poaching bag, but the MTA is literally a creation of the state, and a good portion of why the MTA is the way it is is because of the inadequacy of the state to deal with its problems. These problems did not exist when Richard Ravitch and Hugh Carey were in charge, because they were actually committed to knocking heads together and solving the MTA's problems. Meanwhile, Cuomo just kowtows to the LIRR union demands for more pay and no work rule changes, and then is a year late and a dollar short saying he'll issue $8B in bonds for the MTA's Capital Plan, instead of coming up with a long-term solution. He doesn't even trust his own agency head to make important executive decisions.

Quit making excuses for the MTA. Reopening station entrances isn't nearly as complicated as you make it out to be. In some cases it is just opening a gate as with the el stations on Broadway Brooklyn. Subway stations may involve removing a slab of concrete from the sidewalk, and in some cases a new stairway. These are not major capital expenses. And as far as requiring ADA access to reopen a station entrance, that is nonsense also. The entire Brighton Line was recently entirely rebuilt and now they are doing the Sea Beach Line. Handicapped access was out added at Kings Highway. About eight other stations were entirely rebuilt and not one elevator was added. How did the MTA pull that off? And here we aren't even rebuilding any stations, so why would any of them have to be made handicapped accessible? You are starting to sound like the MTA with nonsense excuses why things can't be done.

[B35 via Church]

The MTA is a creature of the state; most of its problems are the state's fault.......

 

 

......It's very fun to use the MTA as a poaching bag, but the MTA is literally a creation of the state, and a good portion of why the MTA is the way it is is because of the inadequacy of the state to deal with its problems.....

.....is the biggest copout from MTA apologists to date.

 

As far as the metaphor of a punching bag..... Well for starters, It's not about being fun, it's about accountability...

As diligent as BrooklynBus has been & is with criticizing the MTA, I don't get the sense that he's sitting up here being gleeful about it.... I think he holds a personal vendetta against the agency, but fun... Nah... Same on my end, I don't get any enjoyment out of this.... It's very fun? Yeah right - what an insult to everything that's ever been unfavorably said about the MTA by the myriad of people that has done so.... And I'm not just talking about on these transit forums either.....

 

Also, being a state monopoly in its own right, if you can't criticize the sole "state" (there's that word again) public transportation provider, who are its riders going to directly criticize? McDonalds? The gross negligence (that even one ENY b/o concurred with me on) that's ongoing with the B12 (which I've commented on a few times on this forum, for example), isn't the state's fault, and it sure as hell isn't McDonald's fault....

 

I'll give an unrelated example: If you trip & fall on a jagged sidewalk in front of someone's private residence, you don't sue the state.....

 

You can use the state as an umbrella only but for so much.....

[BrooklynBus]

.....is the biggest copout from MTA apologists to date.

 

As far as the metaphor of a punching bag..... Well for starters, It's not about being fun, it's about accountability...

As diligent as BrooklynBus has been & is with criticizing the MTA, I don't get the sense that he's sitting up here being gleeful about it.... I think he holds a personal vendetta against the agency, but fun... Nah... Same on my end, I don't get any enjoyment out of this.... It's very fun? Yeah right - what an insult to everything that's ever been unfavorably said about the MTA by the myriad of people that has done so.... And I'm not just talking about on these transit forums either.....

 

Also, being a state monopoly in its own right, if you can't criticize the sole "state" (there's that word again) public transportation provider, who are its riders going to directly criticize? McDonalds? The gross negligence (that even one ENY b/o concurred with me on) that's ongoing with the B12 (which I've commented on a few times on this forum, for example), isn't the state's fault, and it sure as hell isn't McDonald's fault....

 

I'll give an unrelated example: If you trip & fall on a jagged sidewalk in front of someone's private residence, you don't sue the state.....

 

You can use the state as an umbrella only but for so much.....

Thanks for telling it like it is. I have no vendetta against the MTA. In fact there are some good things I can say about it and have said about it which I won't reiterate now. Yes I am not happy how they treated me when I worked there, but that is totally irrelevant to the posts I make here. The only thing I will say in the MTA's defense, particularly the chairman who I know personally. He is a good man and wants to do the right thing. But even if you are the Chairman, you are still limited by what you can do. You can't do something the governor doesn't want you to do. And you can't micromanage people and worry about every bus being late. His job is to hire the right people and spread a certain message down from the top like the customer comes first and put some teeth behind it so that his underlings take that seriously. He also has to give them the proper resources to do their jobs properly. Hs other important job is to try to get the MTA more money and improve agency efficiency by eliminating waste. he only Chairman I remember who tried to send the message of Customer Service being the MTA's most important job was Peter Stangl and I know he meant it from personal experience.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The elected officials have done what you suggest to try to educate the immigrant store owners. Don't believe it helped any.

 

As far as opening station entrances, you missed my point. With MetroCard no new agents would be needed as was the case before MetroCard when they were needed.

So then you'd have to install HEETS in those stations no?  How else do you ensure that people don't jump the turnstiles?

[BrooklynBus]

So then you'd have to install HEETS in those stations no?  How else do you ensure that people don't jump the turnstiles?

Not so. At many unmanned station entrances such as Voorhies Ave, there are a few HEETs but also regular turnstiles. I heard they were monitored by camera from the other entrance and police have met the offenders on the platform and gave them summonses. No one said there wasn't any expense involved. But it is not a continuing expense as a station agent is. The entrances could be spot checked and of course the option of HEETs still does exist.

 

Anyway it is worth the cost. People can save at least five minutes who not having to walk to the current open entrance. And if they catch a train they would have otherwise missed that could save them another 10 minutes. So a trip that may currently be made in 45 minutes might be made in 30 minutes or a one third savings. Compare that with the benefits of BRT on Woodhaven. $231 million to save ten or fifteen minutes and since the average trip using Woodhaven to go to Manhattan is like 90 minutes, your percentage time savings is much less. of course you also have o look at the number of people benefitting. And reopening station entrances hurts no one unlike Woodhaven.

 

Of course a small study would be needed to determine which entrances to open, the cost benefit of each, and a timeframe set. I don't see why that type of study should take longer than about six months with the first entrances reopening in a year. Knowing the MTA, it will be a three year study with the first entrance reopening in five years so they can brag for five years about the improvements they are making. They really needed a pres release to announce a few extra trips on the 42 Street Shuttle which I don't think has even started.

[Trainmaster5]

You'll have to excuse me with my bloated, excessive pension but I'd like to weigh in here. BrooklynBus, B35, and my man SubwayGuy from the subway threads seem to see what's happening here. There was an idea, SBS, that was a very effective tool in speeding up surface transport in certain locations. The loved the idea because it was federally funded partially or fully. Politicians love ideas that don't cost them a dime. Naturally they want to roll it out citywide so every one of them can get their picture in the paper and on TV. The problem is the and DOT have a one size fits all mentality when it comes to certain things. Roll out shiny new buses or subway cars and (some) people get blinded to the reality. Excuse us. Some of you don't realize that BrooklynBus and I grew up as part of a generation that didn't believe the press releases from the feds, state, or city officials. By the fed's account back then the US military killed every Viet Cong/ NVA combatant  in 'Nam. We still don't. For some of you younger folks think of the Iraq war and WMD. Some of you can see that the mantra of the is that rail is the only cost effective mode of transit. Surface is an afterthought to them. Don't think so? Where is/was the equivalent to SAS or ESA when it comes to surface? If there was no federal funding for the concept of SBS or the infrastructure we wouldn't be having this conversation. Maybe the doesn't realize that many of us don't screw our heads on in the morning. I'm waiting for someone, anyone, to show me how the bus commute, on Woodhaven Boulevard or any other street can speed up when the city-wide speed limit has decreased. I'm not from Missouri but show me.  I just don't see the justification for, IMO, the destruction of a major roadway for something that in theory seems to be impossible according to the laws of physics. For the DOT and to become fixated on this particular idea without exploring all other options borders on criminal IMO. To proceed with this idea when everything else the does is to increase rail usage raises alarm bells with me. I know I'm "old school" but I'd guess that 10 or so Bus Dispatchers with Collecting agents stationed along the corridor at major points would speed up the commute in the peak direction. If the federal money isn't only limited to this project why not combine it with state money to improve more local/ LTD routes? I don't know the answer but I'm open to other ideas. Carry on.

[BrooklynBus]

You'll have to excuse me with my bloated, excessive pension but I'd like to weigh in here. BrooklynBus, B35, and my man SubwayGuy from the subway threads seem to see what's happening here. There was an idea, SBS, that was a very effective tool in speeding up surface transport in certain locations. The loved the idea because it was federally funded partially or fully. Politicians love ideas that don't cost them a dime. Naturally they want to roll it out citywide so every one of them can get their picture in the paper and on TV. The problem is the and DOT have a one size fits all mentality when it comes to certain things. Roll out shiny new buses or subway cars and (some) people get blinded to the reality. Excuse us. Some of you don't realize that BrooklynBus and I grew up as part of a generation that didn't believe the press releases from the feds, state, or city officials. By the fed's account back then the US military killed every Viet Cong/ NVA combatant  in 'Nam. We still don't. For some of you younger folks think of the Iraq war and WMD. Some of you can see that the mantra of the is that rail is the only cost effective mode of transit. Surface is an afterthought to them. Don't think so? Where is/was the equivalent to SAS or ESA when it comes to surface? If there was no federal funding for the concept of SBS or the infrastructure we wouldn't be having this conversation. Maybe the doesn't realize that many of us don't screw our heads on in the morning. I'm waiting for someone, anyone, to show me how the bus commute, on Woodhaven Boulevard or any other street can speed up when the city-wide speed limit has decreased. I'm not from Missouri but show me.  I just don't see the justification for, IMO, the destruction of a major roadway for something that in theory seems to be impossible according to the laws of physics. For the DOT and to become fixated on this particular idea without exploring all other options borders on criminal IMO. To proceed with this idea when everything else the does is to increase rail usage raises alarm bells with me. I know I'm "old school" but I'd guess that 10 or so Bus Dispatchers with Collecting agents stationed along the corridor at major points would speed up the commute in the peak direction. If the federal money isn't only limited to this project why not combine it with state money to improve more local/ LTD routes? I don't know the answer but I'm open to other ideas. Carry on.

Thanks for your very intelligent comments. What you say about politicians wanting their picture in the paper for something that doesn't cost them anything is so true and also the MTA one size fits all mentality. Can't go into all the things the MTA could do to improve transit here if that was their true goal instead of how to operate the least amount of service that is politically acceptable.

 

Too many people just believe all the DOT and MTA lies they are told. DOT deserves much more of the blame than the MTA for the Woodhaven $231 million fiasco. How they could increase the project cost from $20 million to $231 million without explanation is in itself criminal. The MTA is just along for the ride. They just want those free buses that need to be replaced anyway. Better the Feds foot the bill than to have to pay for them out of their own capital budget. That is as much thought as they have put into this plan. A bunch of high school students could have come up with a better plan than DOT. It appears all DOT did was look at Google Maps, saw a wide street and said, well we can have exclusive bus lanes. They have offered zero proof why this plan should work.

 

Their reports are filled with pages of BRT pictures in other cities around the world. They say it works there, so it has to work on Woodhaven. From the pictures, I am not even sure how well it works "there" when I see ten lanes of jam packed cars and two empty bus lanes. They supposedly have BusTime which could be used to to regulate buses but they are not using it. Why not?

 

The sad thing is that the city council has all banded together for SBS. They say we all know that SBS has been a success like that is some type of unchallengeable fact when the facts are that all the improvements and proposed improvements are alleged with nothing proven and as you say against the laws of physics. But people are gullible and believe all the lies. Only one city councilman is against how SBS is being implemented but is for the concept like I am and he is a former bus driver. That ought to tell you something.

 

The other problem is that most SBS proponents are car haters and have closed minds refusing to hear the other side of the story. When I complained 23 left turns will be banned, they respond that anyone can just make three right turns which is not even possible in many areas. As was pointed out at the Woodhaven meeting, banning the left turn going south to Union Turnpike adds several miles to a trip to Stop and Shop. The next available left is Park Lane South at the bottom of the hill, ten cars ave to come all the way back up to Union Turnpike. A few on Streetsblog proposed tolls on Woodhaven Blvd of $8.75 each way and $20 for trucks which tey claimed was a bargain in order to lessen the traffic caused by the bus lanes and banning of all parking on the street. When I tried to counter those arguments, the editor banned me from the site. So much for free speech.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm going to say this about the and SBS service.  For all of the criticizing going on about SBS service, tell me what the alternatives are?  You have an agency that is under attack from the unions who want more and more, and building rail service COSTS money, and I for one am NOT in favor of spending BILLIONS and BILLIONS on rails (at least not in the short term).  I am a STRONG advocate of finding OTHER MEANS to move people, and the city is already doing that via new ferry service.  We need to look at service that is reasonably priced AND can be implemented fairly quickly for the SHORT TERM.  We have issues NOW that need to be addressed that rail service can't address, period.  By the time SAS is finished, I'll probably be in my 80s living somewhere in Italy. 

 

I don't think that SBS is the answer because it isn't, but listen, it's money that the doesn't have to fork over (for now) and if the Feds are going to pay for it, then the should take advantage of it.  They have to cut costs somehow and they don't have many other options.  Additionally, there's another issue going on here.  NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute, and people with money are not going to ride the filthy subways.  Simple as that.  You see more and more young people like me with money using everything but, and that's the way it's going to be.  They would much rather spend more money to ride a nice ferry or something else more upscale than the subway with bums and rats everywhere, and before BrooklynBus or Trainmaster says something, when is the last time you two actually rode the subway?  Neither of you ride it regularly and most likely drive, so I don't see why you're so pro-subway anyway.  You know what I'm saying is the truth.  People moving here are not interested in the subway.  

[BrooklynBus]

Lately, I have been using the subway like two or three times a week. And your assertion that NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute and they won't ride the "filthy" subways is plain wrong. Yes, the rich are becoming richer and the poor are becoming poorer and the middle class is leaving fast for greener pastures. Why is the middle class leaving? It's because we are making it increasingly more difficult for them to remain. We make it more difficult to drive and are constantly removing parking, and not improving the roads or mass transit.

 

And the trains are not filthy as you claim. Not everyone s a germophobe like you. People have always been complaining about the trains and the buses and that will never change. In the 1950s and 60s, the chief complaints about the subways were crowding, noise, and dirt in that order. Ride the nostalgia train on Sunday to see how bad the noise used to be if you don't remember. The crowding has remained just as bad and is now worse during off hours. The trains and stations are much cleaner. Grafitti is a thing of the past although conderale amounts of money is being spent to keep it that way. Money that could go to better uses, but it has to be kept clean.

 

The Brighton Line has all been rebuilt and has never been in better condition. The MTA has done an excellent job in keeping the stations grafitti free. That doesn't make the news. So quit putting down rail. Noise and grafitti no longer concern riders and yes there is an occasional spilt soda on the floor but that is not the fault of the MTA. Today's complaints other than subway crowding is all the weekend work and service reroutes. Many people who ride the trains wouldn't be caught dead on a slow local bus.

 

As for bus riders, there are many such as yourself who may not care about speed but value comfort more and wouldn't be caught dead on a subway. To say "people moving here are not interested in the subway" is totally untrue. Where is your data to back that up? And no one is talking about building subways as a short term solution. We also have inactive rights of way that would be much more economically efficient to reactivate than building new subways.

 

BRT is not a cheap short term solution. Woodhaven Boulevard SBS planning started around 2012 and was originally scheduled to be completed by the end of 2014. That has been moved to 2018. There will be more discussions throughout 2016 with design scheduled for the first half of 2017. BRT construction is scheduled for two years, so we are now in 2019. When has construction in this city not been delayed by two years in recent memory? So now it's 2021 before we see BRT. So the entire process is like nine years. If we has decided to reactivate the rail line instead, it would have taken no longer than BRT.

 

Ferries and bikes are a drop in the bucket when you consider how many people are moved by rail, so they shouldn't even enter this discussion.

 

Now for the main question you ask. What are the alternatives? Unlike subways, the biggest bus complaint has and always been poor reliability and that as never been addressed by the MTA. The other major problems are outdated routes and poor connectivity as well as "transit deserts". The MTA refuses to fill these deserts because tehy complain they have no money to run more service. But at the same time they are moving forward full steam with SBS which costs much more to operate than traditional buses because of the ongoing enforcement needed. What will happen to all the money invested in off board fare machines which will have to all be scrapped when we switch to contactless media? How efficient is that or installing bus lanes that you will rip up and reinstall in a few years?

 

You don't start new routes that end a block short of a major transfer point to save a bus. That is not planning. It is foolhardy. And you don't expect people to ride buses with 30 minute headways, when more frequent service is available by a roundabout method. You don't penalize bus riders with a double fare who need a bus train and a bus. You don't sacrifice bus stops in the Bronx by making riders walk further to buses in the Bronx on the Q44 which only cancels out the few minutes they save on SBS. You don't make it impossible to drive by adding bus lanes like on Main Street where they are not needed. You build an off street bus terminal instead to relieve traffic congestion. Yes, there is no shortage of ideas on how to improve transit without severely inconveniencing drivers and forcing the middle class out of the city.

 

The city and MTA are always looking for easy formula solutions like SBS and the 25 mph speed limit. The one size fits all approach never worked and never will. What does work is tailored individual solutions to specific problems. If for example, you have a dangerous intersection, you fix that dangerous intersection, you don't redesign the entire corridor and propose a solution that many feel will endanger pedestrian safety, not improve it.

It's like when I was recently talking to MTA Bus Operations and complained about overuse of the "Next Bus Please" sign as a solution to reduce bus bunching. They agreed with me that it is overused and never was meant to be used when there is not another bus behind for another 15 minutes, but that is exactly what they are doing. The man who is in charge of bus reliability responded to me "But we have to do something".

 

The same can be said why the City is so gung ho on SBS. They are too lazy to analyze all the specific problems that ails transit here and come up with intelligent specific solutions so they are moving forward with SBS to make it appear they are solving some problems which in most cases they are not. It is the same reason, "We have to do sonething."

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Lately, I have been using the subway like two or three times a week. And your assertion that NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute and they won't ride the "filthy" subways is plain wrong. Yes, the rich are becoming richer and the poor are becoming poorer and the middle class is leaving fast for greener pastures. Why is the middle class leaving? It's because we are making it increasingly more difficult for them to remain. We make it more difficult to drive and are constantly removing parking, and not improving the roads or mass transit.

 

And the trains are not filthy as you claim. Not everyone s a germophobe like you. People have always been complaining about the trains and the buses and that will never change. In the 1950s and 60s, the chief complaints about the subways were crowding, noise, and dirt in that order. Ride the nostalgia train on Sunday to see how bad the noise used to be if you don't remember. The crowding has remained just as bad and is now worse during off hours. The trains and stations are much cleaner. Grafitti is a thing of the past although conderale amounts of money is being spent to keep it that way. Money that could go to better uses, but it has to be kept clean.

 

The Brighton Line has all been rebuilt and has never been in better condition. The MTA has done an excellent job in keeping the stations grafitti free. That doesn't make the news. So quit putting down rail. Noise and grafitti no longer concern riders and yes there is an occasional spilt soda on the floor but that is not the fault of the MTA. Today's complaints other than subway crowding is all the weekend work and service reroutes. Many people who ride the trains wouldn't be caught dead on a slow local bus.

 

As for bus riders, there are many such as yourself who may not care about speed but value comfort more and wouldn't be caught dead on a subway. To say "people moving here are not interested in the subway" is totally untrue. Where is your data to back that up? And no one is talking about building subways as a short term solution. We also have inactive rights of way that would be much more economically efficient to reactivate than building new subways.

 

BRT is not a cheap short term solution. Woodhaven Boulevard SBS planning started around 2012 and was originally scheduled to be completed by the end of 2014. That has been moved to 2018. There will be more discussions throughout 2016 with design scheduled for the first half of 2017. BRT construction is scheduled for two years, so we are now in 2019. When has construction in this city not been delayed by two years in recent memory? So now it's 2021 before we see BRT. So the entire process is like nine years. If we has decided to reactivate the rail line instead, it would have taken no longer than BRT.

 

Ferries and bikes are a drop in the bucket when you consider how many people are moved by rail, so they shouldn't even enter this discussion.

 

Now for the main question you ask. What are the alternatives? Unlike subways, the biggest bus complaint has and always been poor reliability and that as never been addressed by the MTA. The other major problems are outdated routes and poor connectivity as well as "transit deserts". The MTA refuses to fill these deserts because tehy complain they have no money to run more service. But at the same time they are moving forward full steam with SBS which costs much more to operate than traditional buses because of the ongoing enforcement needed. What will happen to all the money invested in off board fare machines which will have to all be scrapped when we switch to contactless media? How efficient is that or installing bus lanes that you will rip up and reinstall in a few years?

 

You don't start new routes that end a block short of a major transfer point to save a bus. That is not planning. It is foolhardy. And you don't expect people to ride buses with 30 minute headways, when more frequent service is available by a roundabout method. You don't penalize bus riders with a double fare who need a bus train and a bus. You don't sacrifice bus stops in the Bronx by making riders walk further to buses in the Bronx on the Q44 which only cancels out the few minutes they save on SBS. You don't make it impossible to drive by adding bus lanes like on Main Street where they are not needed. You build an off street bus terminal instead to relieve traffic congestion. Yes, there is no shortage of ideas on how to improve transit without severely inconveniencing drivers and forcing the middle class out of the city.

 

The city and MTA are always looking for easy formula solutions like SBS and the 25 mph speed limit. The one size fits all approach never worked and never will. What does work is tailored individual solutions to specific problems. If for example, you have a dangerous intersection, you fix that dangerous intersection, you don't redesign the entire corridor and propose a solution that many feel will endanger pedestrian safety, not improve it.

It's like when I was recently talking to MTA Bus Operations and complained about overuse of the "Next Bus Please" sign as a solution to reduce bus bunching. They agreed with me that it is overused and never was meant to be used when there is not another bus behind for another 15 minutes, but that is exactly what they are doing. The man who is in charge of bus reliability responded to me "But we have to do something".

 

The same can be said why the City is so gung ho on SBS. They are too lazy to analyze all the specific problems that ails transit here and come up with intelligent specific solutions so they are moving forward with SBS to make it appear they are solving some problems which in most cases they are not. It is the same reason, "We have to do sonething."

Your thinking is a bit flawed to say the least.  You argue that other modes of transportation are a drop in the bucket, yet you constantly yell about people not being able to drive?  So in other words we should continue to encourage ONE person in their gas guzzling car to drive around in Manhattan, but ferry service and other transportation services that carry people should be shunned.  That's essentially what you're arguing.  We have tons of waterways that are being underutilized here and yet you simply refuse to entertain the idea that people are not into the subways.  The people using the subways are using them because they have NO choice.  Folks with money are not using the subways like that and you know it.  They're using car service, taxis, the commuter trains, express buses.... Everything BUT the subway.  If you seriously want to get more people out of their cars you need to have tiered services.  The people already riding the subways will continue to do so.

[BrooklynBus]

Your thinking is a bit flawed to say the least. You argue that other modes of transportation are a drop in the bucket, yet you constantly yell about people not being able to drive? So in other words we should continue to encourage ONE person in their gas guzzling car to drive around in Manhattan, but ferry service and other transportation services that carry people should be shunned. That's essentially what you're arguing. We have tons of waterways that are being underutilized here and yet you simply refuse to entertain the idea that people are not into the subways. The people using the subways are using them because they have NO choice. Folks with money are not using the subways like that and you know it. They're using car service, taxis, the commuter trains, express buses.... Everything BUT the subway. If you seriously want to get more people out of their cars you need to have tiered services. The people already riding the subways will continue to do so.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. My thinking is not flawed at all. I wasn't knocking ferries and other modes as being unimportant by saying they shouldn't enter this discussion. As I often stated, each mode has its place and needs to utilized to the fullest and that includes cycling. Of course our waterways are under utilized. But even if you started 25 new ferry routes, not even considering the economics of it, how many daily riders would there be? I am guessing 100,000? When you consider the millions of daily subway and bus trips which I believe are somewhat near each other (without checking the numbers) you are talking about a very small percentage for ferries. More might even walk to woork. That's why I said we should confine ourselves to buses and trains right now in this discussion.

 

As far as improving mass transit to get people out of their cars, as admirable as that may be, it is long range. We can't even accommodate the existing mass transit riders adequately so that needs to be our immediate concern.

 

Before you say I am contradicting myself by saying I am promoting cycling, I also would like to add that you shouldn't inconvenience 5,000 or 10,000 cars to accommodate 500 cyclists as the city is doing by taking away traffic lanes. It's the same story with bus lanes. Whatever you do, you have to be helping more than you are hurting and that is measured by minutes saved and minutes lost times the number of those affected.

[Fresh Pond]

I'm going to say this about the and SBS service. For all of the criticizing going on about SBS service, tell me what the alternatives are? You have an agency that is under attack from the unions who want more and more, and building rail service COSTS money, and I for one am NOT in favor of spending BILLIONS and BILLIONS on rails (at least not in the short term). I am a STRONG advocate of finding OTHER MEANS to move people, and the city is already doing that via new ferry service. We need to look at service that is reasonably priced AND can be implemented fairly quickly for the SHORT TERM. We have issues NOW that need to be addressed that rail service can't address, period. By the time SAS is finished, I'll probably be in my 80s living somewhere in Italy.

 

I don't think that SBS is the answer because it isn't, but listen, it's money that the doesn't have to fork over (for now) and if the Feds are going to pay for it, then the should take advantage of it. They have to cut costs somehow and they don't have many other options. Additionally, there's another issue going on here. NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute, and people with money are not going to ride the filthy subways. Simple as that. You see more and more young people like me with money using everything but, and that's the way it's going to be. They would much rather spend more money to ride a nice ferry or something else more upscale than the subway with bums and rats everywhere, and before BrooklynBus or Trainmaster says something, when is the last time you two actually rode the subway? Neither of you ride it regularly and most likely drive, so I don't see why you're so pro-subway anyway. You know what I'm saying is the truth. People moving here are not interested in the subway.

Pretty sure the people who moved in Williamsburg & Bushwick in droves and made ridership skyrocket and often dirty the trains themselves say otherwise.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Pretty sure the people who moved in Williamsburg & Bushwick in droves and made ridership skyrocket and often dirty the trains themselves say otherwise.

The ones that can use Uber or the ferry service make use of them.  Those are the people living in the new condos and such in North Williamsburg.  Those people are NOT using the trust me.  When I go to Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Williamsburg, I will certainly be using the ferry.  Much nicer ride.

[BreeddekalbL]

i don't know if anyone saw this article
http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/12/07/tish-james-and-queens-pols-to-dot-finish-strong-on-woodhaven-brt/ 

 

but now james dismisses those concerns, saying it's about education?!  also i hope those pushing something for the rbl to be reactivated win, queens does not need to get highlined 

[BrooklynBus]

i don't know if anyone saw this article

http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/12/07/tish-james-and-queens-pols-to-dot-finish-strong-on-woodhaven-brt/ 

 

but now james dismisses those concerns, saying it's about education?!  also i hope those pushing something for the rbl to be reactivated win, queens does not need to get highlined

 

Yes, did see it and made a negative comment about SBS so people started asking me questions to discredit me, but I was able to respond to all of them.

 

Tish is correct. It is all about education. But the education that is needed is the truth to counter all the lies and distortions and misleading information put forth by DOT and the MTA.

 

So when I tried to educate by telling the truth and mentioned that road capacity for vehicles other than buses will be reduced by up to 75 percent, the editor banned me before I could explain. He said I was making "too many posts". I only read Streetsblog once every two or three months and made a half a dozen posts on this thread only to answer question I was asked. Guess they like to ask questions, but when they do not like the answers they get, they just ban the opposition.

[Fresh Pond]

The ones that can use Uber or the ferry service make use of them. Those are the people living in the new condos and such in North Williamsburg. Those people are NOT using the trust me. When I go to Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Williamsburg, I will certainly be using the ferry. Much nicer ride.

Oh trust me, they using the ...its to the point I avoid it going home and deal with the and its mediocre one-stop shuttle bus

 

The lesser of two evils in a sense lol

[trainfan22]

I'm going to say this about the and SBS service.  For all of the criticizing going on about SBS service, tell me what the alternatives are?  You have an agency that is under attack from the unions who want more and more, and building rail service COSTS money, and I for one am NOT in favor of spending BILLIONS and BILLIONS on rails (at least not in the short term).  I am a STRONG advocate of finding OTHER MEANS to move people, and the city is already doing that via new ferry service.  We need to look at service that is reasonably priced AND can be implemented fairly quickly for the SHORT TERM.  We have issues NOW that need to be addressed that rail service can't address, period.  By the time SAS is finished, I'll probably be in my 80s living somewhere in Italy. 

 

I don't think that SBS is the answer because it isn't, but listen, it's money that the doesn't have to fork over (for now) and if the Feds are going to pay for it, then the should take advantage of it.  They have to cut costs somehow and they don't have many other options.  Additionally, there's another issue going on here.  NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute, and people with money are not going to ride the filthy subways.  Simple as that.  You see more and more young people like me with money using everything but, and that's the way it's going to be.  They would much rather spend more money to ride a nice ferry or something else more upscale than the subway with bums and rats everywhere, and before BrooklynBus or Trainmaster says something, when is the last time you two actually rode the subway?  Neither of you ride it regularly and most likely drive, so I don't see why you're so pro-subway anyway.  You know what I'm saying is the truth.  People moving here are not interested in the subway.  

I ride the routes that go though gentrified areas in BK regularly and I don't agree that these new residents don't use the subway... Bedford Ave has the highest ridership on the entire line, even higher than Rockaway Parkway! & line ridership is skyrocketing in BK and most of the areas it passes though are being gentrified. I see all these transplants on the line, I rode the everyday a little over 10 years ago so I know the demographics of the line and saw the changes.

 

The line has the reputation of being the Hipster line. I ride the full route regularly and towards the Manhattan end of the route the train is usually crush loaded with those transplants.

 

I don't agree that new people moving to NYC are not interested in the subway, riding the subway in NY is part of the "NY experience". Those showtime kids and mini concerts in the mezzanine of stations in Manhattan may be background noise to natives but its cool to transplants.

 

[Trainmaster5]

I'm going to say this about the and SBS service.  For all of the criticizing going on about SBS service, tell me what the alternatives are?  You have an agency that is under attack from the unions who want more and more, and building rail service COSTS money, and I for one am NOT in favor of spending BILLIONS and BILLIONS on rails (at least not in the short term).  I am a STRONG advocate of finding OTHER MEANS to move people, and the city is already doing that via new ferry service.  We need to look at service that is reasonably priced AND can be implemented fairly quickly for the SHORT TERM.  We have issues NOW that need to be addressed that rail service can't address, period.  By the time SAS is finished, I'll probably be in my 80s living somewhere in Italy. 

 

I don't think that SBS is the answer because it isn't, but listen, it's money that the doesn't have to fork over (for now) and if the Feds are going to pay for it, then the should take advantage of it.  They have to cut costs somehow and they don't have many other options.  Additionally, there's another issue going on here.  NYC is becoming more affluent by the minute, and people with money are not going to ride the filthy subways.  Simple as that.  You see more and more young people like me with money using everything but, and that's the way it's going to be.  They would much rather spend more money to ride a nice ferry or something else more upscale than the subway with bums and rats everywhere, and before BrooklynBus or Trainmaster says something, when is the last time you two actually rode the subway?  Neither of you ride it regularly and most likely drive, so I don't see why you're so pro-subway anyway.  You know what I'm saying is the truth.  People moving here are not interested in the subway.  

That's quite an assumption you made about me VG8. Unfortunately in this case you are dead wrong. I've taken the LIRR, the , the , the and the so far this week. I even made a stop at 180 Livingston St in Downtown BK to renew my pass. Then again being a somewhat intelligent person I'm sure you remember what they say about people who make assumptions. BTW it's a fact that surface (bus) is the most costly, least efficient mode of transit in NYC so why throw more money into it (SBS) when the city, the state, the , meaning you, will have to pick up the tab eventually. The Feds in the next congress will cut mass transit funding no matter which party prevails in 2016.  PS, how many private ferry operators are out there clamoring for unsubsidized routes for commuters? Fantasyland and New York City are two different places last time I looked. I'll leave it at that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I ride the routes that go though gentrified areas in BK regularly and I don't agree that these new residents don't use the subway... Bedford Ave has the highest ridership on the entire line, even higher than Rockaway Parkway! & line ridership is skyrocketing in BK and most of the areas it passes though are being gentrified. I see all these transplants on the line, I rode the everyday a little over 10 years ago so I know the demographics of the line and saw the changes.

 

The line has the reputation of being the Hipster line. I ride the full route regularly and towards the Manhattan end of the route the train is usually crush loaded with those transplants.

 

I don't agree that new people moving to NYC are not interested in the subway, riding the subway in NY is part of the "NY experience". Those showtime kids and mini concerts in the mezzanine of stations in Manhattan may be background noise to natives but its cool to transplants.

 

 

Oh trust me, they using the ...its to the point I avoid it going home and deal with the and its mediocre one-stop shuttle bus

 

The lesser of two evils in a sense lol

The ones that have no choice do.  The ones that can afford Uber or the Ferry don't and believe me, if those people used the it would be even worse.

 

 

 

That's quite an assumption you made about me VG8. Unfortunately in this case you are dead wrong. I've taken the LIRR, the  , the  , the   and the   so far this week. I even made a stop at 180 Livingston St in Downtown BK to renew my pass. Then again being a somewhat intelligent person I'm sure you remember what they say about people who make assumptions. BTW it's a fact that surface (bus) is the most costly, least efficient mode of transit in NYC so why throw more money into it (SBS) when the city, the state, the  , meaning you, will have to pick up the tab eventually. The Feds in the next congress will cut mass transit funding no matter which party prevails in 2016.  PS, how many private ferry operators are out there clamoring for unsubsidized routes for commuters? Fantasyland and New York City are two different places last time I looked. I'll leave it at that.

You take occasional trips though.  In other words neither of you actually depend on the subway or public transit for an everyday commute.  It's easy to say this and that when you don't. Furthermore, weren't you a former train operator?  You are clearly bias against other forms of transportation.  I still stand by my argument that we need to continue to have our tiered services in order to even out transit use where possible and not have everyone clamoring for the subways when the can't even accommodate everybody.  I am more than happy to leave earlier and take an earlier express bus if that means not having to ride the subway in Manhattan.  Bus service still remains somewhat civilized, though the is doing their best to destroy that too.  That's the good thing about SBS.  You can get on stand with some space and have a decent ride that doesn't stop every other block.  For seniors and other people that aren't near subways or don't want to use them, they too deserve a fast commute, and SBS gives them that opportunity.

[B46 via Utica]

 

The ones that have no choice do. The ones that can afford Uber or the Ferry don't and believe me, if those people used the it would be even worse.

 

 

 

 

You take occasional trips though. In other words neither of you actually depend on the subway or public transit for an everyday commute. It's easy to say this and that when you don't. Furthermore, weren't you a former train operator? You are clearly bias against other forms of transportation. I still stand by my argument that we need to continue to have our tiered services in order to even out transit use where possible and not have everyone clamoring for the subways when the can't even accommodate everybody. I am more than happy to leave earlier and take an earlier express bus if that means not having to ride the subway in Manhattan. Bus service still remains somewhat civilized, though the is doing their best to destroy that too. That's the good thing about SBS. You can get on stand with some space and have a decent ride that doesn't stop every other block. For seniors and other people that aren't near subways or don't want to use them, they too deserve a fast commute, and SBS gives them that opportunity.

 

Bruh... all forms of transportation have their ups and downs advantages and disadvantages so don't shit on the subway. Just because you're uninterested in it doesn't mean other people are uninterested to.

People who rely on the subway realize that their commutes won't always be filled with sunshine their will always be some sort of delay or problem because of the high ridership (same story with buses). The MTA shouldn't waste their Money on SBS if it's not even going to solve any problems.