Look who's back: Port Authority to release study in favor of 7 to New Jersey

[Around the Horn]

"A new Port Authority study could revive the debate over a No. 7 train subway extension across the Hudson River into the swamps of Secaucus.

 

The agency plans to release a study that argues extending the 7 train to New Jersey is “the one major trans-Hudson investment that studies suggest could significantly reduce long-term Bus Terminal demand,” according to sources cited by Politico."

 

http://therealdeal.com/2016/09/20/port-authority-brings-7-line-subway-extension-to-new-jersey-into-play/

 

EDIT: Curbed has also reported on the study:

" As Port Authority prepares to release the front-running submissions received for Midtown’s Port Authority Bus Terminal in Midtown, a decades-old debate has resurfaced and is back up for discussion. According to Politico, Port Authority will soon release a study, that in part, argues for the extension of the 7 train to Secaucus, New Jersey, citing that doing so could reduce bus terminal congestion in the long run."

 

http://ny.curbed.com/2016/9/20/12991676/7-train-expansion-secaucus-new-jersey-port-authority

 

That's some endorsement from the Port Authority right there. Gateway was never even called that...

 

(Maybe the MTA can order new open gangway cars for the and simultaneously?  )

[Union Tpke]

Build things that are needed! If the MTA is supposed to fork over cash for both of these projects, it should be forked into building a complete SAS. Build Phases 2 and 3 at once! Wouldn't you be willing to pay more now just to make sure it actually gets build instead of having a stub Second Avenue Subway.

[RailRunRob]

Build things that are needed! If the MTA is supposed to fork over cash for both of these projects, it should be forked into building a complete SAS. Build Phases 2 and 3 at once! Wouldn't you be willing to pay more now just to make sure it actually gets build instead of having a stub Second Avenue Subway.

Wouldn't that depend on who's paying? If the PA and NJ help's with footing the bill that money's not going to the SAS anyways. Could be Fed or regional funding as well. Interesting idea tho.

[Around the Horn]

If the Port Authority and New Jersey are also paying (scare New Jersey with the threat of even more traffic on the Lincoln Tunnel for all I care), then by all means build it. Include stops in Hoboken and you have a winner.

[RailRunRob]

If the Port Authority and New Jersey are also paying (scare New Jersey with the threat of even more traffic on the Lincoln Tunnel for all I care), then by all means build it. Include stops in Hoboken and you have a winner.

Yeah, I agree I follow the "Whoever pays get's to say rule" Everything else is just noise. So they'd have to rework the study the old uses the ARC alignment correct?

[DailyDose]

I'm all for it if the MTA can incorporate CBTC and possible ATO onto the 7 line by the time it is complete. If they want to make Secaucus a gateway into the East Side, then they need all the trains they can fit to transport thousands during rush hour.

[RailRunRob]

It's not too bad of an idea if your thinking 25-30 years out with population projections this may come out cheaper. Another option would more than likely include an extra tube added to the Lincoln to ease capacity but then add the bottlenecks with the feeder routes like 495 and displacement with portal placements. That's a lot of extras. Underground easy and simple. Being it's regional access project as well I'm sure it'll qualify for the federal funding.. could work.      

[Around the Horn]

The one project that must happen if the Port Authority chooses to expand (regardless if they expand to Jersey or further west in Manhattan), is the 10th Avenue station.

[Wallyhorse]

Personally, I still think having the go to New Jersey would be a better option because it's a straight line and such might force all stations on the line to be extended to accommodate 600' trains (and possibly the rest of the Eastern Division as well).  That would have it connect with every other subway line in Manhattan along 14th Street.  

[RailRunRob]

Personally, I still think having the go to New Jersey would be a better option because it's a straight line and such might force all stations on the line to be extended to accommodate 600' trains (and possibly the rest of the Eastern Division as well).  That would have it connect with every other subway line in Manhattan along 14th Street.  

 

Midtown is the target. Plus the connects to more lines technically.  

Personally, I still think having the go to New Jersey would be a better option because it's a straight line and such might force all stations on the line to be extended to accommodate 600' trains (and possibly the rest of the Eastern Division as well).  That would have it connect with every other subway line in Manhattan along 14th Street.  

Very true with the PA possibly between 9th and 10th Aves 

[Cait Sith]

To be honest, I don't know who's gonna take a train/bus from one end of NJ to a subway train(and pay again, mind you) that will run less frequent than all of the buses and trains combined. A train to Secaucus just sounds unrealistic to me, and it won't reduce bus congestion at all.....I've been against this plan from the start.

When you put every single commuter bus and its ridership together with a single subway line, that'll cause more congestion for the than it has now. New Jersey Transit, along with their contractors (Coach USA, Academy, etc) have some of the highest ridership bus routes to/from PABT in their system. When the math is done, it just spells out more trouble for the , unless you can run trains every 2 minutes. There's waaaaaaaaay more bus traffic and commuter traffic with all those buses than what the deals with on a daily basis.

The is one of the most highly politicized lines in the system. I can almost imagine that the politicians in Queens will be against the whole thing, because it won't benefit them at all(literally speaking, it doesn't benefit Queens residents at all). Plus, I'm not quite sure how they'll implement CBTC technology all the way to Secaucus.

Bus terminal congestion won't go down because for one, Secaucus is out of the way for buses that go North of there. Second, building a Hoboken Station would be counter-productive. You have NJ Transit's 126 that continues to have a ridership increase, and the PATH(which lets face it, its more reliable than the ). 

As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money.

If the PA was smart, the first thing they would/should do is kick the jitney operators out of the port and have them pick up at the curbs. That opens up quite a few gates. They are honestly better off building a bus terminal at Weehawken while providing free shuttle service to/from Manhattan, than to do this.

In order for them to reduce bus congestion to the levels they want to reduce it to, they'd have to do several things.

1. Extend several subway lines to New Jersey, because one subway route along won't help their case.
2. Purchase extra rolling stock so they can meet this predicted demand.
3. Create station(s) that can hold the capacity.

Now think about it, how beneficial would it be for anyone in the long run? To me, this idea is more of a railfan's wetdream than something that would actually be beneficial to all parties in the long run.

[46Dover]

To be honest, I don't know who's gonna take a train/bus from one end of NJ to a subway train(and pay again, mind you) that will run less frequent than all of the buses and trains combined. A train to Secaucus just sounds unrealistic to me, and it won't reduce bus congestion at all.....I've been against this plan from the start.

 

When you put every single commuter bus and its ridership together with a single subway line, that'll cause more congestion for the than it has now. New Jersey Transit, along with their contractors (Coach USA, Academy, etc) have some of the highest ridership bus routes to/from PABT in their system. When the math is done, it just spells out more trouble for the , unless you can run trains every 2 minutes. There's waaaaaaaaay more bus traffic and commuter traffic with all those buses than what the deals with on a daily basis.

 

The is one of the most highly politicized lines in the system. I can almost imagine that the politicians in Queens will be against the whole thing, because it won't benefit them at all(literally speaking, it doesn't benefit Queens residents at all). Plus, I'm not quite sure how they'll implement CBTC technology all the way to Secaucus.

 

Bus terminal congestion won't go down because for one, Secaucus is out of the way for buses that go North of there. Second, building a Hoboken Station would be counter-productive. You have NJ Transit's 126 that continues to have a ridership increase, and the PATH(which lets face it, its more reliable than the ).

 

As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money.

 

If the PA was smart, the first thing they would/should do is kick the jitney operators out of the port and have them pick up at the curbs. That opens up quite a few gates. They are honestly better off building a bus terminal at Weehawken while providing free shuttle service to/from Manhattan, than to do this.

 

In order for them to reduce bus congestion to the levels they want to reduce it to, they'd have to do several things.

 

1. Extend several subway lines to New Jersey, because one subway route along won't help their case.

2. Purchase extra rolling stock so they can meet this predicted demand.

3. Create station(s) that can hold the capacity.

 

Now think about it, how beneficial would it be for anyone in the long run? To me, this idea is more of a railfan's wetdream than something that would actually be beneficial to all parties in the long run.

Please kick out the Jitneys.

But the flip side to that is you would put all those riders on the buses which means they'll be filled to capacity

"A new Port Authority study could revive the debate over a No. 7 train subway extension across the Hudson River into the swamps of Secaucus.

 

The agency plans to release a study that argues extending the 7 train to New Jersey is “the one major trans-Hudson investment that studies suggest could significantly reduce long-term Bus Terminal demand,” according to sources cited by Politico."

 

http://therealdeal.com/2016/09/20/port-authority-brings-7-line-subway-extension-to-new-jersey-into-play/

 

EDIT: Curbed has also reported on the study:

" As Port Authority prepares to release the front-running submissions received for Midtown’s Port Authority Bus Terminal in Midtown, a decades-old debate has resurfaced and is back up for discussion. According to Politico, Port Authority will soon release a study, that in part, argues for the extension of the 7 train to Secaucus, New Jersey, citing that doing so could reduce bus terminal congestion in the long run."

 

http://ny.curbed.com/2016/9/20/12991676/7-train-expansion-secaucus-new-jersey-port-authority

 

That's some endorsement from the Port Authority right there. Gateway was never even called that...

 

(Maybe the MTA can order new open gangway cars for the and simultaneously? )

Group of folks in New Jersey beg to differ

 

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2016/09/new_port_authority_bus_terminal_will_not_be_built_in_new_jersey_agency_says.html

[Deucey]

The thing I wonder is, if this happens, how do you prevent it from cannibalizing NJT ridership into Penn? Granted most who ride in from the end of NJT lines won't have a financial incentive to switch to the , but those next to Secaucus will take advantage since (using current fares) $2.75 > $8.

[B46 via Utica]

I'm against this proposal the ridership to don't really see the point in extending the . I'm not sure if the can handle the capacity that comes with it the amount of trains you would have to add the line is ridiculous might as well fish the redbirds out of the ocean.

[CenSin]

The should not go to New Jersey at all. It sounds vindictive, but New Jersey deserves nothing for voting that asshat Christie into office. Even if they are willing to pay, New York City loses the option of extending the elsewhere.

 

On the other hand, if they want to extend the down to Tribeca first, then that is a different story. That fills in all the gaps on the west side of Manhattan below 42 Street.
 

The thing I wonder is, if this happens, how do you prevent it from cannibalizing NJT ridership into Penn? Granted most who ride in from the end of NJT lines won't have a financial incentive to switch to the , but those next to Secaucus will take advantage since (using current fares) $2.75 > $8.

That operator is pointing the wrong way. $2.75 < $8.

[B46 via Utica]

I'm against this proposal the ridership to don't really see the point in extending the . I'm not sure if the can handle the capacity that comes with it the amount of trains you would have to add the line is ridiculous might as well fish the redbirds out of the ocean.

Sorry for the post mess up.

[beelinefan]

If the port authority wants direct rail service to midtown they should just build a new path line or extend the 33rd st path.

[P3F]

If the port authority wants direct rail service to midtown they should just build a new path line or extend the 33rd st path.

I do not know why nobody else has mentioned this.

 

Building a new PATH line would help much more than extending the to New Jersey would, and the price would not be significantly higher.

[bobtehpanda]

Wouldn't that depend on who's paying? If the PA and NJ help's with footing the bill that money's not going to the SAS anyways. Could be Fed or regional funding as well. Interesting idea tho.

 

 

If the Port Authority and New Jersey are also paying (scare New Jersey with the threat of even more traffic on the Lincoln Tunnel for all I care), then by all means build it. Include stops in Hoboken and you have a winner.

 

That's why PATH exists. If New Jersey can get away with paying for its own subway extension but not contributing to operating expenses through the exact same MTA taxes that the outer boroughs have paid since 1968, they can do so over my dead body.

 

When you put every single commuter bus and its ridership together with a single subway line, that'll cause more congestion for the than it has now. New Jersey Transit, along with their contractors (Coach USA, Academy, etc) have some of the highest ridership bus routes to/from PABT in their system. When the math is done, it just spells out more trouble for the , unless you can run trains every 2 minutes. There's waaaaaaaaay more bus traffic and commuter traffic with all those buses than what the deals with on a daily basis.

 

As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money.

 

The already runs every 2.5 and I would expect CBTC to diminish that time even further. 10th Avenue would put the rest of the FWS at 42nd within catchment and reduce congestion at TSQ, so I'm not that opposed.

 

That being said, the best option would actually be a PATH line extending up the HBLR right-of-way, then going crosstown at 57th St to connect with all the lines on 59th and 57th Sts.

[Lance]

Yay, another proposal that does absolutely nothing useful for the people it's supposed to benefit. As Shane mentioned, very few people will bail NJ Transit buses and trains at Secaucus for the train when they likely already have a direct route into New York through Penn Station or the Port Authority Bus Terminal. No, this is just another harebrained scheme to put off or get out of paying for the necessary expansion and reconstruction of the PABT along with expanding capacity on the Hudson River rail crossing. No expansion of the subway into New Jersey will take away from those very real needs and the longer both of these things get pushed back, the more of a problem these inefficiencies will become in the long run.

 

Also, as mentioned up thread, I can't see any local politicians supporting this. Of course Cuomo will probably celebrate this as the best idea ever. However, for the most part, the idea of expanding service into New Jersey while many areas, especially in Queens and the Bronx, are practically transit deserts will be a hard sell.

[RailRunRob]

To be honest, I don't know who's gonna take a train/bus from one end of NJ to a subway train(and pay again, mind you) that will run less frequent than all of the buses and trains combined. A train to Secaucus just sounds unrealistic to me, and it won't reduce bus congestion at all.....I've been against this plan from the start.

 

When you put every single commuter bus and its ridership together with a single subway line, that'll cause more congestion for the than it has now. New Jersey Transit, along with their contractors (Coach USA, Academy, etc) have some of the highest ridership bus routes to/from PABT in their system. When the math is done, it just spells out more trouble for the , unless you can run trains every 2 minutes. There's waaaaaaaaay more bus traffic and commuter traffic with all those buses than what the deals with on a daily basis.

 

The is one of the most highly politicized lines in the system. I can almost imagine that the politicians in Queens will be against the whole thing, because it won't benefit them at all(literally speaking, it doesn't benefit Queens residents at all). Plus, I'm not quite sure how they'll implement CBTC technology all the way to Secaucus.

 

Bus terminal congestion won't go down because for one, Secaucus is out of the way for buses that go North of there. Second, building a Hoboken Station would be counter-productive. You have NJ Transit's 126 that continues to have a ridership increase, and the PATH(which lets face it, its more reliable than the ).

 

As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money.

 

If the PA was smart, the first thing they would/should do is kick the jitney operators out of the port and have them pick up at the curbs. That opens up quite a few gates. They are honestly better off building a bus terminal at Weehawken while providing free shuttle service to/from Manhattan, than to do this.

 

In order for them to reduce bus congestion to the levels they want to reduce it to, they'd have to do several things.

 

1. Extend several subway lines to New Jersey, because one subway route along won't help their case.

2. Purchase extra rolling stock so they can meet this predicted demand.

3. Create station(s) that can hold the capacity.

 

Now think about it, how beneficial would it be for anyone in the long run? To me, this idea is more of a railfan's wetdream than something that would actually be beneficial to all parties in the long run.

My approach is always anythings possible until proven otherwise or ruled out. Most time those restrictions come in the form financial blocks some are technology and what's possible at the current. My take from this is. Regional population is projected for moderate or better growth over the next 20-40 years. That's my starting point If I know that I'd have to ask does this mean I have to accommodate more buses coming into the City proper? With the new PA being designed now with available space to build and this bus station having to last 70-80 years is it possible to future proof the PABT? Larger population more buses can the Lincoln handle that? If not can you build a extra tube? Whats the damage to the surrounding area? Expanding the feeder routes to the tunnel to handle the extra cars and buses. Already the idea is plausible if this what I need to do meet demand. Reroute/create some buses routes to a new Station on the Jersey side make the transfer easy as possible. A good amount of riders from the report are already going to East or take the Subway on the Manhattan side. What's the difference if your adding time to the persons commute? Adding rolling stock and stations that's the easy part. If you have to build a tube for cars and dig up highly populated areas what's the issue with the ? Can't be cost. Why wouldn't it benefit if is cutting travel time giving direct access to the regions Business core?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[RailRunRob]

Yay, another proposal that does absolutely nothing useful for the people it's supposed to benefit. As Shane mentioned, very few people will bail NJ Transit buses and trains at Secaucus for the train when they likely already have a direct route into New York through Penn Station or the Port Authority Bus Terminal. No, this is just another harebrained scheme to put off or get out of paying for the necessary expansion and reconstruction of the PABT along with expanding capacity on the Hudson River rail crossing. No expansion of the subway into New Jersey will take away from those very real needs and the longer both of these things get pushed back, the more of a problem these inefficiencies will become in the long run.

 

Also, as mentioned up thread, I can't see any local politicians supporting this. Of course Cuomo will probably celebrate this as the best idea ever. However, for the most part, the idea of expanding service into New Jersey while many areas, especially in Queens and the Bronx, are practically transit deserts will be a hard sell.

Can't argue that the Hudson Rail Crossing needs to happen That's key. I guess I thought of this as more connected to the PABT and offsetting some pressure from there. The Gateway/ARC is happening right? Can't fathom that they'd even entertain the thought that this can replace the need for the Penn connection.

 

 

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[Lance]

When this was first proposed, it came immediately after the ARC tunnel project was cancelled. Trust me, both the Port Authority, as well as the governors of New York and New Jersey will use any subway extension to New Jersey as a way to punt the actual capacity problems plaguing both the PABT and Penn Station to the new person in charge. I can't see these guys funding both a subway extension along with Gateway and the new PABT.

[RailRunRob]

When this was first proposed, it came immediately after the ARC tunnel project was cancelled. Trust me, both the Port Authority, as well as the governors of New York and New Jersey will use any subway extension to New Jersey as a way to punt the actual capacity problems plaguing both the PABT and Penn Station to the new person in charge. I can't see these guys funding both a subway extension along with Gateway and the new PABT.

Yeah the odd are definitely stacked. No technical or scientific minds to be found in government god help our grandchildren.

 

 

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[Around the Horn]

As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money.

 

I had to double check to make sure you were the one who wrote this post. The amount of misinformation has to be a forum record. 

 

First off, the Port Authority was never going to "move" the PABT to Jersey. This was ruled out almost immediately. However, the Port Authority was considering splitting the  PABT in two, with a smaller terminal in Manhattan and another terminal in Jersey, with the being the primary artery between the two, and providing a way to go from the Jersey terminal to Midtown Manhattan (which by the way, is already part of the (7)'s contra-flow peak ridership) and to provide a way to get from Jersey to the new Hudson Yards district.

 

I do however, agree that this plan is flawed and the Queens pols will be all over it, and may be the group that shuts this down, and rightfully so.

 

This plan won't noticeably decrease bus congestion, and you're right about this again, however add a Park and Ride facility at the Secaucus station and you may decrease overall congestion in the Lincoln tunnel and approaches.

 

Then, we get to the Hudson Yards portion of your post which is the most egregious by far.

 

"As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money."

 

If you're going to have the PABT expand further west in Manhattan instead of expand into New Jersey, then a 10th Avenue station is a requirement, and maybe just maybe, you'll cut down on the congestion in the passageway between the PABT and Times Square station if there is a train station at the 9th Avenue end. Then consider that 10th Avenue and 41st Street is one of the most populous area's of the Far West Side, soon to be surpassed by Hudson Yards.

 

Speaking of that, how in the world is 34th Street automatically a waste of money, if the buildings are still under construction, and the whole project was clearly future proofed? To put it simply, I expect better posts than this from you.

 

Now, I will agree this extension is not the best proposal out there, and is not necessary. An expansion of PABT further west and building the 10th Avenue station (with a direct exit to the 9th Avenue end of the PABT) is a much better use of resources and frankly what I expected the Port Authority to propose. 

 

Extending the to Laurelton should get priority over this and the to Red Hook, and if I had to choose between the to Secaucus and the to Red Hook, the is getting my vote.

 

As for whether the should be extended further, i think it should go down to at least the Chelsea Market, if not all the way to Tribeca.