Removing two B36 bus stops was the wrong decision.

[BrooklynBus]

Read the sixth letter.

 

http://www.brooklyndaily.com/stories/2016/42/all-letters-2016-10-14-bd.html

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Removing two stops is the least of the B36's problems... You should write an article about what the is or isn't doing to address commute times that continue to worsen. 

[BrooklynBus]

Removing two stops is the least of the B36's problems... You should write an article about what the is or isn't doing to address commute times that continue to worsen.

 

Are you referring only to the B36 or are you referring to commute times in general?

 

If in general, why don't you blame DeBlasio with his obsession for everyone to drive slower in the name of safety. Have you seen the latest Vision Zero Ad? It asks everyone to slow down. If everyone listens and does drive slower, that means buses also have to go slower since most streets do not have exclusive bus lanes. Or is your answer to put bus lanes everywhere a bus operates? The MTA will not just add service so you wait longer and buses travel slower.

 

In the 1960's DOT did what they could to eliminate bottlenecks and speed traffic. The goal was to reduce congestion. Today it is to add sidewalk space for pedestrians and install bike lanes. They don't give a damn about traffic. They want it to move slower and that hurts buses. They want you to believe that SBS will solve all bus problems which is ridiculous because you will never have more than about 20 SBS routes while you will continue to have about 300 local routes. Express buses or new interneignborhood inter borough bus routes where there is demand like from Sunset Park to Flushing will not be established because the MTA does not want to invest in our bus system other than purchasing new buses and upgrading depots. That's why the private sector is moving in with illegal van operations.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Are you referring only to the B36 or are you referring to commute times in general?

 

If in general, why don't you blame DeBlasio with his obsession for everyone to drive slower in the name of safety. Have you seen the latest Vision Zero Ad? It asks everyone to slow down. If everyone listens and does drive slower, that means buses also have to go slower since most streets do not have exclusive bus lanes. Or is your answer to put bus lanes everywhere a bus operates? The MTA will not just add service so you wait longer and buses travel slower.

 

In the 1960's DOT did what they could to eliminate bottlenecks and speed traffic. The goal was to reduce congestion. Today it is to add sidewalk space for pedestrians and install bike lanes. They don't give a damn about traffic. They want it to move slower and that hurts buses. They want you to believe that SBS will solve all bus problems which is ridiculous because you will never have more than about 20 SBS routes while you will continue to have about 300 local routes. Express buses or new interneignborhood inter borough bus routes where there is demand like from Sunset Park to Flushing will not be established because the MTA does not want to invest in our bus system other than purchasing new buses and upgrading depots. That's why the private sector is moving in with illegal van operations.

I mean in general.  I'm one of the biggest supporters of buses, so you know that when I start questioning them (i.e. express buses) and going to Metro-North there is a big problem.  The delays are so extensive that there really isn't a choice. I only use local buses during off-peak hours and for short commutes, though I will say that the subways are so bad with the endless delays that sometimes the local buses are a better choice.  I also think that with the congestion being so extensive that you get instances of road rage from drivers.  I got into a heated exchange yesterday with a cabbie trying to create a lane that didn't exist.  The B36 oddly enough from the few times that I've used it still seems to get decent usage, but that could be due to people who have no choice and terrible bunching.  Quite frankly a LTD wouldn't be such a bad idea.  The bus makes too many stops.

[CenSin]

 

 

“Name withheld upon request” asks me to “get over it” regarding elimination of B36 bus stops (“Reader wars! Al n’ Richie in the crosshairs,” Sound off to the editor, Sept. 16).

He or she states that walking is good for the heart. Maybe so, but if we are to encourage mass transit, we need to make it as convenient as possible. Increasing the likelihood of missed connections does the opposite.

A comparison is made between the B36 and B4 where riders also must walk a block. The difference is that there are over a million connections a year between the B36 and the subway — about 10 times as many as the B4. Also some bus riders have difficulty walking an extra block. That is why I placed those bus stops there decades ago when the bus routes in the area underwent a major updating that I designed.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority agreed at that time not to have the B36 go straight on Avenue Z, due to the very high numbers of transferring passengers. There were no problems until a turning bus at E. 17th Street struck and killed a passenger (the first bus fatality in 38 years since the bus started to make that turn), and now that bus turn is considered unsafe. If a B4 or B49 strikes a passenger while turning, should those bus turns also be eliminated?

There are other implications as well. Bay Pizzeria complained business was down dramatically since the bus stop in front of the store was eliminated, and now the store is for rent. Will the Department of Transportation now help feed the family of the former owner?Allan Rosen

Well, the MTA isn’t liable for loss of business to a pizzeria just like a competitor shouldn’t be held liable for taking away business from its neighbor. If your business was built around certain circumstances and they changed for the worse, a loss of business is just what it is.

 

Bus stops are also way too dense, making it an inconvenient mode of travel. The less of them, the better since they currently make buses stop every two blocks. Passengers have no compunction about ringing that bell every chance they get. If they really can’t move around an extra block or two, they should be using a service specifically made for them like Access-a-Ride. Ideally, bus stops should be 3~5 street blocks apart. Buses running down local streets should stop at every avenue (since the red lights aren’t in their favor anyway).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, the MTA isn’t liable for loss of business to a pizzeria just like a competitor shouldn’t be held liable for taking away business from its neighbor. If your business was built around certain circumstances and they changed for the worse, a loss of business is just what it is.

 

Bus stops are also way too dense, making it an inconvenient mode of travel. The less of them, the better since they currently make buses stop every two blocks. Passengers have no compunction about ringing that bell every chance they get. If they really can’t move around an extra block or two, they should be using a service specifically made for them like Access-a-Ride. Ideally, bus stops should be 3~5 street blocks apart. Buses running down local streets should stop at every avenue (since the red lights aren’t in their favor anyway).

I agree... And while we're at it, there are plenty of bus stops that connect with the subway that aren't that close.  My neighborhood doesn't have a subway and requires a local bus to get to the nearest train stop.  Going to the station if you take the Bx7, you will be forced to schlepp 4 or so blocks to get to the subway because the bus turns and heads over to 230th and Broadway from there, so the B36 set up isn't that big of a deal. I should also add that the B36 riders don't have hills to deal with to get to the subway like my area does.  Oddly enough, I think it was BrooklynBus who complained about buses making too many stops in the past.  Which is it? 

[BrooklynBus]

I mean in general.  I'm one of the biggest supporters of buses, so you know that when I start questioning them (i.e. express buses) and going to Metro-North there is a big problem.  The delays are so extensive that there really isn't a choice. I only use local buses during off-peak hours and for short commutes, though I will say that the subways are so bad with the endless delays that sometimes the local buses are a better choice.  I also think that with the congestion being so extensive that you get instances of road rage from drivers.  I got into a heated exchange yesterday with a cabbie trying to create a lane that didn't exist.  The B36 oddly enough from the few times that I've used it still seems to get decent usage, but that could be due to people who have no choice and terrible bunching.  Quite frankly a LTD wouldn't be such a bad idea.  The bus makes too many stops.

No driver wants to drive in congestion. The problem is that it is not always predictable so it's hard to avoid. True some roads are always jammed at the same time each day so they can be avoided but many times roads move fine during rush hours and are all backed up on odd times.

 

I think the city doesn't do all it can to reduce congestion, like the tine there was a 20 minute delay exiting the Queensboro Bridge due to planned utility work. That particular delay could have been reduced to five minutes if there was an enforcement agent present.

 

Plus the bike lanes certainly do not help. The Queens Blvd lane has doubled my time on Queens Blvd from five minutes to ten. Doesn't sound like much, but added to other new delays on route caused by city policy to reduce travel lanes all over in the name of safety, it all adds up. And I travel during the off peak. It does not pay to inconvenience 100,000 cars to benefit 3,000 bike riders.

 

Glad I am retired now because I would hate to think how much longer my commute to work would be now. And that's before completion of Removing lanes for Woodhaven SBS.

[BrooklynBus]

Well, the MTA isn’t liable for loss of business to a pizzeria just like a competitor shouldn’t be held liable for taking away business from its neighbor. If your business was built around certain circumstances and they changed for the worse, a loss of business is just what it is.

 

Bus stops are also way too dense, making it an inconvenient mode of travel. The less of them, the better since they currently make buses stop every two blocks. Passengers have no compunction about ringing that bell every chance they get. If they really can’t move around an extra block or two, they should be using a service specifically made for them like Access-a-Ride. Ideally, bus stops should be 3~5 street blocks apart. Buses running down local streets should stop at every avenue (since the red lights aren’t in their favor anyway).

I agree... And while we're at it, there are plenty of bus stops that connect with the subway that aren't that close.  My neighborhood doesn't have a subway and requires a local bus to get to the nearest train stop.  Going to the station if you take the Bx7, you will be forced to schlepp 4 or so blocks to get to the subway because the bus turns and heads over to 230th and Broadway from there, so the B36 set up isn't that big of a deal. I should also add that the B36 riders don't have hills to deal with to get to the subway like my area does.  Oddly enough, I think it was BrooklynBus who complained about buses making too many stops in the past.  Which is it? 

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case. An Avenue block is generally three city blocks, plus there are many places where buses stop every three or even four city blocks. In a few cases, they stop 200 feet apart. Yes, there are some opportunities to reduce unneeded bus stops but it depends on bus stop usage. If the stops are lightly used anyway, it doesn't matter if they are every two blocks instead of every three. Many stops are usually skipped anyway so every two blocks provides better service with shorter walks and a greater chance not to miss your bus.

 

If the stops are every two blocks and they are heavily utilized, they should remain that way because spreading them out would only make the remaining stops more crowded so little or no time would be saved anyway. And those routes should be candidates for Limited service. Three block spacing when stops are moderately used at two block spacing is the only thing that makes sense. However, you should make exceptions for schools, hospitals, etc.

 

Also where you have buses on the same streets with subways, the bus stops need to be closer together than the subway stops. Otherwise there really isn't a point for the bus at all.

 

Yes, the B36 isn't the worst in the world, but to justify an unnecessary change for the worse because there are worse situations like in the Bronx which has hills, makes no sense either. One of the complaints about the 2010 service cuts was that they paid no attention at all to topography when deciding what to cut and what to keep.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No driver wants to drive in congestion. The problem is that it is not always predictable so it's hard to avoid. True some roads are always jammed at the same time each day so they can be avoided but many times roads move fine during rush hours and are all backed up on odd times.

 

I think the city doesn't do all it can to reduce congestion, like the tine there was a 20 minute delay exiting the Queensboro Bridge due to planned utility work. That particular delay could have been reduced to five minutes if there was an enforcement agent present.

 

Plus the bike lanes certainly do not help. The Queens Blvd lane has doubled my time on Queens Blvd from five minutes to ten. Doesn't sound like much, but added to other new delays on route caused by city policy to reduce travel lanes all over in the name of safety, it all adds up. And I travel during the off peak. It does not pay to inconvenience 100,000 cars to benefit 3,000 bike riders.

 

Glad I am retired now because I would hate to think how much longer my commute to work would be now. And that's before completion of Removing lanes for Woodhaven SBS.

Bike lanes are needed, as much as I don't like seeing them everywhere.  Yes, the city isn't doing all that it can to reduce congestion, but with cheap gas prices, you have more and more people using their cars because mass transit sucks. It isn't just the buses, but the subways too.  It's incredible to be honest how much you have to pay to using mass transit to get somewhere on time.  In addition to that the buses are often packed or so crowded that it is better to walk or take a cab.  All of this is why bus service is where it is.  There is no incentive for drivers to actually stay on time and in fact very few of them even try anymore.  To a certain extent you can't blame them while some take it to the extreme to milk overtime, etc.

 

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case. An Avenue block is generally three city blocks, plus there are many places where buses stop every three or even four city blocks. In a few cases, they stop 200 feet apart. Yes, there are some opportunities to reduce unneeded bus stops but it depends on bus stop usage. If the stops are lightly used anyway, it doesn't matter if they are every two blocks instead of every three. Many stops are usually skipped anyway so every two blocks provides better service with shorter walks and a greater chance not to miss your bus.

 

If the stops are every two blocks and they are heavily utilized, they should remain that way because spreading them out would only make the remaining stops more crowded so little or no time would be saved anyway. And those routes should be candidates for Limited service. Three block spacing when stops are moderately used at two block spacing is the only thing that makes sense. However, you should make exceptions for schools, hospitals, etc.

 

Also where you have buses on the same streets with subways, the bus stops need to be closer together than the subway stops. Otherwise there really isn't a point for the bus at all.

 

Yes, the B36 isn't the worst in the world, but to justify an unnecessary change for the worse because there are worse situations like in the Bronx which has hills, makes no sense either. One of the complaints about the 2010 service cuts was that they paid no attention at all to topography when deciding what to cut and what to keep.

My point is walking a few blocks isn't the end of the world.  I mean seriously I lived 6 or 7 blocks from the Sheepshead Bay train station growing up and always walked to it, so why is such a big deal for others to walk a few blocks?  The reality is that as CenSin said, people are too lazy so the more stops a bus has, the more people will ring the bell.  They want door to door service, which is ridiculous.  I'm all in favor of removing stops, and speeding up boarding times.

[BrooklynBus]

Bike lanes are needed, as much as I don't like seeing them everywhere.  Yes, the city isn't doing all that it can to reduce congestion, but with cheap gas prices, you have more and more people using their cars because mass transit sucks. It isn't just the buses, but the subways too.  It's incredible to be honest how much you have to pay to using mass transit to get somewhere on time.  In addition to that the buses are often packed or so crowded that it is better to walk or take a cab.  All of this is why bus service is where it is.  There is no incentive for drivers to actually stay on time and in fact very few of them even try anymore.  To a certain extent you can't blame them while some take it to the extreme to milk overtime, etc.

 

 

My point is walking a few blocks isn't the end of the world.  I mean seriously I lived 6 or 7 blocks from the Sheepshead Bay train station growing up and always walked to it, so why is such a big deal for others to walk a few blocks?  The reality is that as CenSin said, people are too lazy so the more stops a bus has, the more people will ring the bell.  They want door to door service, which is ridiculous.  I'm all in favor of removing stops, and speeding up boarding times.

I really think people think of gas prices only when making long distance trips, not for regular commuting. As far as walking, as you get older every block makes a difference. When I was a kid, I regularly walked a half mile everyday to the train instead of taking a bus. It's not a matter of being lazy. I also disagree with you over incentives for bus drivers to be on time. I think they are under much pressure. Otherwise there is no explanation why B1 drivers regularly skip picking up a passenger or two when they have as few as five standees. My friend was waiting yesterday for one at Falmouth Street. I told him to skip the Ocean Parkway bound bus because he was going further and there was another B1 right behind. Well, the second bus didn't stop for him, nor did the two behind that one. So he crossed the street and walked a black to take a bus to the college. Guess what? That bus also didn't stop. Then two more came without stopping. (The B49 was stopping.) Finally I drove him to Coney Island Avenue so he could get a bus after waiting 25 minutes at 5 PM on a weekday.

[CenSin]

I really think people think of gas prices only when making long distance trips, not for regular commuting. As far as walking, as you get older every block makes a difference. When I was a kid, I regularly walked a half mile everyday to the train instead of taking a bus. It's not a matter of being lazy. I also disagree with you over incentives for bus drivers to be on time. I think they are under much pressure. Otherwise there is no explanation why B1 drivers regularly skip picking up a passenger or two when they have as few as five standees. My friend was waiting yesterday for one at Falmouth Street. I told him to skip the Ocean Parkway bound bus because he was going further and there was another B1 right behind. Well, the second bus didn't stop for him, nor did the two behind that one. So he crossed the street and walked a black to take a bus to the college. Guess what? That bus also didn't stop. Then two more came without stopping. (The B49 was stopping.) Finally I drove him to Coney Island Avenue so he could get a bus after waiting 25 minutes at 5 PM on a weekday.

Shouldn’t be holding back the more able-bodied though. If transportation were designed for the lowest common denominator, we’d all be riding around in stretchers. At some point, folks should consider getting more specialized transportation services for themselves. Riding a bus really tries one’s patience in New York City. What San Francisco has is definitely better with farther-spaced stops.

[BrooklynBus]

Shouldn’t be holding back the more able-bodied though. If transportation were designed for the lowest common denominator, we’d all be riding around in stretchers. At some point, folks should consider getting more specialized transportation services for themselves. Riding a bus really tries one’s patience in New York City. What San Francisco has is definitely better with farther-spaced stops.

The problem is that it costs like $75 to provide one specialized trip when the fare is $1.25. So we can't afford to have more use specialized transportation, because we all have to pay for it. Total trip time is what is important. It makes no sense to trade increased bus speed by increasing stop spacing to every quarter mile for additional walking time to and from the bus stop so that total travel time remains the same. The only time that would reduce total travel time is if the average local bus trip were like five or ten miles. But it is only 2.3 miles.

[checkmatechamp13]

I agree... And while we're at it, there are plenty of bus stops that connect with the subway that aren't that close.  My neighborhood doesn't have a subway and requires a local bus to get to the nearest train stop.  Going to the station if you take the Bx7, you will be forced to schlepp 4 or so blocks to get to the subway because the bus turns and heads over to 230th and Broadway from there, so the B36 set up isn't that big of a deal. I should also add that the B36 riders don't have hills to deal with to get to the subway like my area does.  Oddly enough, I think it was BrooklynBus who complained about buses making too many stops in the past.  Which is it? 

 

The Bx7 goes right down Broadway, so if you want to reach the station directly, you can stay on until 225th, or take the at 207th. 

 

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case. An Avenue block is generally three city blocks, plus there are many places where buses stop every three or even four city blocks. In a few cases, they stop 200 feet apart. Yes, there are some opportunities to reduce unneeded bus stops but it depends on bus stop usage. If the stops are lightly used anyway, it doesn't matter if they are every two blocks instead of every three. Many stops are usually skipped anyway so every two blocks provides better service with shorter walks and a greater chance not to miss your bus.

 

If the stops are every two blocks and they are heavily utilized, they should remain that way because spreading them out would only make the remaining stops more crowded so little or no time would be saved anyway. And those routes should be candidates for Limited service. Three block spacing when stops are moderately used at two block spacing is the only thing that makes sense. However, you should make exceptions for schools, hospitals, etc.

 

Also where you have buses on the same streets with subways, the bus stops need to be closer together than the subway stops. Otherwise there really isn't a point for the bus at all.

 

Yes, the B36 isn't the worst in the world, but to justify an unnecessary change for the worse because there are worse situations like in the Bronx which has hills, makes no sense either. One of the complaints about the 2010 service cuts was that they paid no attention at all to topography when deciding what to cut and what to keep.

 

If the stops are that busy, then maybe in that particular case, off-board payment for the route is the answer. One of the big contributors to dwell time is people having to line up and dip in their MetroCard. You consolidate a few stops, and with off-board fare payment, you can get passengers loaded up within one traffic light cycle and pull off.

 

Well, to be fair, the 2009 cuts had the S42 eliminated on the weekends completely. The 2010 cuts had the S52 rerouted to cover the hills east of Jersey Street, and then when people complained, they revised the cuts further (before they were implemented) and had the S42 restored during rush hour & evenings for people living on the hills west of Jersey Street. The Bx18 was saved when people complained about topography, and the S66 was rerouted to at least give Grymes Hill some weekday service (as you know, I'm trying to get it restructured so that all neighborhoods along the route have some form of weekend service). 

 

Having to walk an extra block to the bus stop barely costs the passenger any time. It takes about a minute to walk the extra block, but by the time the bus decelerates to pull into the extra stop, you save maybe 30 seconds.

 

My point is walking a few blocks isn't the end of the world.  I mean seriously I lived 6 or 7 blocks from the Sheepshead Bay train station growing up and always walked to it, so why is such a big deal for others to walk a few blocks?  The reality is that as CenSin said, people are too lazy so the more stops a bus has, the more people will ring the bell.  They want door to door service, which is ridiculous.  I'm all in favor of removing stops, and speeding up boarding times.

 

To be fair, transfer points are a little different because you already walked to access the bus, and then you have to walk to make your transfer. But that's not to say that transfer points should bring you door-to-door for your connection. A one block walk in this case is acceptable, since the fact that the bus saves those extra turns and lights means you'll probably make up that time anyway.

 

I really think people think of gas prices only when making long distance trips, not for regular commuting. As far as walking, as you get older every block makes a difference. When I was a kid, I regularly walked a half mile everyday to the train instead of taking a bus. It's not a matter of being lazy. I also disagree with you over incentives for bus drivers to be on time. I think they are under much pressure. Otherwise there is no explanation why B1 drivers regularly skip picking up a passenger or two when they have as few as five standees. My friend was waiting yesterday for one at Falmouth Street. I told him to skip the Ocean Parkway bound bus because he was going further and there was another B1 right behind. Well, the second bus didn't stop for him, nor did the two behind that one. So he crossed the street and walked a black to take a bus to the college. Guess what? That bus also didn't stop. Then two more came without stopping. (The B49 was stopping.) Finally I drove him to Coney Island Avenue so he could get a bus after waiting 25 minutes at 5 PM on a weekday.

 

I don't think that necessarily has to do with staying on schedule. That could very well just be incompetence and/or poor training. For example, on school trippers, some B/Os think that "It's just for the schoolkids", when that is against FTA regulations. They have to allow anybody who wants to board, and they have to stop at all the stops just like a regular bus. Now, it's one thing when the bus is crowded and there's an emptier one right behind it, so you skip some stops to keep things moving, but to have a whole pack of buses just bypass you is unacceptable.

 

Maybe since it starts at a college, they have that "tripper" mentality, even if they're not actually listed as one. That definitely needs to be looked into, on the B1 specifically, and in general.

 

The problem is that it costs like $75 to provide one specialized trip when the fare is $1.25. So we can't afford to have more use specialized transportation, because we all have to pay for it. Total trip time is what is important. It makes no sense to trade increased bus speed by increasing stop spacing to every quarter mile for additional walking time to and from the bus stop so that total travel time remains the same. The only time that would reduce total travel time is if the average local bus trip were like five or ten miles. But it is only 2.3 miles.

 

The thing is that increasing the bus stop spacing makes the buses more reliable. How many times have we seen it where the bus pulls into the stop, misses the light, then pulls into the next stop and misses that light too? Multiply that by the length of the route, and before you know it, buses are 10-15 minutes late and bunched up.

 

A quarter mile is a bit excessive. Three to four blocks should be enough to provide the right balance between access and speed. Like I said, an extra city block generally won't make much of a difference. (If you see the bus while you're walking that extra block, then as long as you're able-bodied, and I understand some aren't, you can jog/run that extra block to catch the bus)

[bobtehpanda]

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case.

 

This is a bit silly. If blocks vary in size, make the spacing contingent on distance. European and Asian systems, as a rule of thumb, generally do not have buses stop any more than every 400m (so every 1/4 mile), if the street network isn't very indirect. We're trying to compete with motor transportation, not with walking.

 

Obviously if there are big demand generators, you adjust spacing, but that's just shifting a particular stop rather than adding more stops.

[DetSMART45]

 

 

I don't think that necessarily has to do with staying on schedule. That could very well just be incompetence and/or poor training. For example, on school trippers, some B/Os think that "It's just for the schoolkids", when that is against FTA regulations. They have to allow anybody who wants to board, and they have to stop at all the stops just like a regular bus. Now, it's one thing when the bus is crowded and there's an emptier one right behind it, so you skip some stops to keep things moving, but to have a whole pack of buses just bypass you is unacceptable.

 

Maybe since it starts at a college, they have that "tripper" mentality, even if they're not actually listed as one. That definitely needs to be looked into, on the B1 specifically, and in general.

 

One of the problems with the "trippers" is that they're not specifically designated in the schedules, no matter if they run full route or short-turn once onto the main service.  Kinda gives an operator an "excuse" if questioned on the street by some rube customer, but not so much if a customer calls-in or writes a complaint with the pertinent information.  DDOT is unconventional in their printed schedules and uses "A" and "P" designations in the timetables over the traditional "bold means PM times".  Bold trips on DDOT schedules meant those trips only operated when DPS was in session, and if the bus ran a truncated route, at least customers could still know that they'd be picked up/dropped off if within that section and a bus wouldn't just pass them by.  If those trips began off-route, that was noted as well.  But the thing is, you could still get service, even if maybe AYOR with a bus filled with schoolkids, along the route at those times even if supplemental to regular service.

 

This is a bit silly. If blocks vary in size, make the spacing contingent on distance. European and Asian systems, as a rule of thumb, generally do not have buses stop any more than every 400m (so every 1/4 mile), if the street network isn't very indirect. We're trying to compete with motor transportation, not with walking.

 

Obviously if there are big demand generators, you adjust spacing, but that's just shifting a particular stop rather than adding more stops.

Right.  Surely some stops could be eliminated if this was applied.

 

Now as to the constant bell-ringing, THAT is something that irritates me to no end.  Stop and pick up 4 or 5 people at one stop, close the door and someone has to ring for the next stop, where there's nobody boarding (not that they actually look).  BUT, to make things worse, that person COULD have exited and WALKED the extra two blocks in the time we're waiting for those people to board.

 

Saw exactly this when bus was boarding a wheelchair.  Stop, kneel, ramp out, operator flips the seats and swings out the Q-Straint, wheelchair comes up ramp and has to do the dance around the corner, swing around, back up/forward/back up, in place, operator fastens straps.  Ramp up, kneel up, close door, hazards off, parking brake off.  DING "Stop Requested", drive up two blocks, able-bodied bonehead (except in the head, I guess), steps off.  Me, shakes head with a hearty facepalm.

[CenSin]

The problem is that it costs like $75 to provide one specialized trip when the fare is $1.25. So we can't afford to have more use specialized transportation, because we all have to pay for it.

We also pay for this slow service with our time. Many people taking the buses amounts to many man-hours lost to what should be a quick commute. Perhaps a better compromise would be to make 2 out of 3 buses make limited stops. Those limited stops would be about 5 Manhattan street blocks apart (or the equivalent distance). It would do a lot to encourage people to coalesce around fewer stops. People who really can’t walk, of course, would go to the closest stop regardless. But their antics will be bothering less people since limited bus driver will not stop at all the extraneous stops. Of course, there should also be a maximum delay between local buses… something that is infrequent enough that it discourages lazy able-bodied folks from spreading themselves among 5 stops in a quarter mile stretch.

 

It makes no sense to trade increased bus speed by increasing stop spacing to every quarter mile for additional walking time to and from the bus stop so that total travel time remains the same. The only time that would reduce total travel time is if the average local bus trip were like five or ten miles. But it is only 2.3 miles.

Right now, my sprinting speed is competitive with Seagate-bound buses coming out of Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. It’s hard to believe that skipping stops would not save time from a passenger-centric point of view.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case. An Avenue block is generally three city blocks, plus there are many places where buses stop every three or even four city blocks. In a few cases, they stop 200 feet apart. Yes, there are some opportunities to reduce unneeded bus stops but it depends on bus stop usage. If the stops are lightly used anyway, it doesn't matter if they are every two blocks instead of every three. Many stops are usually skipped anyway so every two blocks provides better service with shorter walks and a greater chance not to miss your bus.

 

If the stops are every two blocks and they are heavily utilized, they should remain that way because spreading them out would only make the remaining stops more crowded so little or no time would be saved anyway. And those routes should be candidates for Limited service. Three block spacing when stops are moderately used at two block spacing is the only thing that makes sense. However, you should make exceptions for schools, hospitals, etc.

 

Also where you have buses on the same streets with subways, the bus stops need to be closer together than the subway stops. Otherwise there really isn't a point for the bus at all.

 

Yes, the B36 isn't the worst in the world, but to justify an unnecessary change for the worse because there are worse situations like in the Bronx which has hills, makes no sense either. One of the complaints about the 2010 service cuts was that they paid no attention at all to topography when deciding what to cut and what to keep.

Well my question is or rather my comment to that is more stops made means slower service.  Not only do these people ring for EVERY stop, they also take FOREVER to get off.  People have this concept that they can for whatever reason take more time boarding and getting off as opposed to other forms of transit (i.e. subways, and other trains).  I guess they think the driver is obligated to wait for them forever.  I think that's another reason the wants to roll out SBS service because with SBS you pay before you get on so there is no need for the driver to sit and wait around.  Buses have become like taxis where people stroll to get on, then hold everyone up trying to get out their Metrocard etc.   With local bus service, a driver can't just close the door and go because the passenger could file a complaint and make a stink. I think that's what needs to be addressed.  We have to make buses run more efficiently and spend less time dwelling at stops.  It will be very interesting to see what new payment system the puts in place because we need something where people can pay for ALL buses prior to boarding.  That would make a huge difference alone.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. The Bx7 goes right down Broadway, so if you want to reach the station directly, you can stay on until 225th, or take the at 207th. 

 

 

2. To be fair, transfer points are a little different because you already walked to access the bus, and then you have to walk to make your transfer. But that's not to say that transfer points should bring you door-to-door for your connection. A one block walk in this case is acceptable, since the fact that the bus saves those extra turns and lights means you'll probably make up that time anyway.

 

1. Yeah but that's inmaterial.  Very few people are going to go down to 225th for the subway because #1, the trains usually fill up at 231st which means those people may not get a seat.  #2, the Bx7 spends quite a while dropping off and picking up after that stop, so walking those 3-4 blocks makes more sense than spending an extra 10 minutes to get to 225th and not get a seat.  Additionally, while neither 231st nor 225th are safe havens, there's a perception that 231st is a bit safer so that's something else.  From my own experience, I prefer 231st.  I have other options that I can use that puts me right by the subway should I choose to take it and aside from that 225th and Broadway has a hill of its own that is a pain.

 

2. Transfer points should be convenient, yes, but there should be some give and take.  If it causes a minimal amount of disruption for passengers but makes service better overall, I think the answer is obvious.

You can't make generalizations about how far apart bus stops should be. You can have guidelines but each situation needs to be looked at individually. You can't just say buses stop every two blocks because that isn't the case. An Avenue block is generally three city blocks, plus there are many places where buses stop every three or even four city blocks. In a few cases, they stop 200 feet apart. Yes, there are some opportunities to reduce unneeded bus stops but it depends on bus stop usage. If the stops are lightly used anyway, it doesn't matter if they are every two blocks instead of every three. Many stops are usually skipped anyway so every two blocks provides better service with shorter walks and a greater chance not to miss your bus.

 

If the stops are every two blocks and they are heavily utilized, they should remain that way because spreading them out would only make the remaining stops more crowded so little or no time would be saved anyway. And those routes should be candidates for Limited service. Three block spacing when stops are moderately used at two block spacing is the only thing that makes sense. However, you should make exceptions for schools, hospitals, etc.

 

Also where you have buses on the same streets with subways, the bus stops need to be closer together than the subway stops. Otherwise there really isn't a point for the bus at all.

 

Yes, the B36 isn't the worst in the world, but to justify an unnecessary change for the worse because there are worse situations like in the Bronx which has hills, makes no sense either. One of the complaints about the 2010 service cuts was that they paid no attention at all to topography when deciding what to cut and what to keep.

Well my question is or rather my comment to that is more stops made means slower service.  Not only do these people ring for EVERY stop, they also take FOREVER to get off.  People have this concept that with buses, they can for whatever reason take more time boarding and getting off as opposed to other forms of transit (i.e. subways, and other trains).  I guess they think the driver is obligated to wait for them forever.  I think that's another reason the   wants to roll out more SBS service because with SBS you pay before you get on so there is no need for the driver to sit around and wait.  Buses have become like taxis where people stroll to get on, then hold everyone up trying to get out their Metrocard etc.   With local bus service, a driver can't just close the door and go because the passenger could file a complaint and make a stink. I think that's what needs to be addressed.  We have to make buses run more efficiently and spend less time dwelling at stops AND make fewer stops.  It will be very interesting to see what new payment system the   puts in place because we need something where people can pay for ALL buses prior to boarding.  That would make a huge difference alone.

[bobtehpanda]

We also pay for this slow service with our time. Many people taking the buses amounts to many man-hours lost to what should be a quick commute. Perhaps a better compromise would be to make 2 out of 3 buses make limited stops. Those limited stops would be about 5 Manhattan street blocks apart (or the equivalent distance). It would do a lot to encourage people to coalesce around fewer stops.

 

A pretty common setup in other cities is skip-stop service; so, there are bus stops every two blocks, but group A of buses stop at 14th, 18th, 22nd, etc. and group B stops at 16th, 20th, 24th, etc.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A pretty common setup in other cities is skip-stop service; so, there are bus stops every two blocks, but group A of buses stop at 14th, 18th, 22nd, etc. and group B stops at 16th, 20th, 24th, etc.

Given the amount of bunching though, I don't think that would be effective.

[CenSin]

A pretty common setup in other cities is skip-stop service; so, there are bus stops every two blocks, but group A of buses stop at 14th, 18th, 22nd, etc. and group B stops at 16th, 20th, 24th, etc.

It’s a pretty equitable setup in that it doesn’t discriminate. But it also precludes rewarding those who make an effort.

 

Of course, with real-time bus tracking, I could look at my phone and see what bus is approaching. I don’t have to squint to see if I should chase the bus for two blocks. If a B bus is approaching and I’m at an A stop, I can preemptively sprint two blocks over to meet up with the B bus so that service for me effectively becomes twice as frequent. Those who don’t feel like running will get their deserved longer wait.

[BrooklynBus]

The Bx7 goes right down Broadway, so if you want to reach the station directly, you can stay on until 225th, or take the at 207th. 

 

If the stops are that busy, then maybe in that particular case, off-board payment for the route is the answer. One of the big contributors to dwell time is people having to line up and dip in their MetroCard. You consolidate a few stops, and with off-board fare payment, you can get passengers loaded up within one traffic light cycle and pull off.

 

Well, to be fair, the 2009 cuts had the S42 eliminated on the weekends completely. The 2010 cuts had the S52 rerouted to cover the hills east of Jersey Street, and then when people complained, they revised the cuts further (before they were implemented) and had the S42 restored during rush hour & evenings for people living on the hills west of Jersey Street. The Bx18 was saved when people complained about topography, and the S66 was rerouted to at least give Grymes Hill some weekday service (as you know, I'm trying to get it restructured so that all neighborhoods along the route have some form of weekend service). 

 

Having to walk an extra block to the bus stop barely costs the passenger any time. It takes about a minute to walk the extra block, but by the time the bus decelerates to pull into the extra stop, you save maybe 30 seconds.

 

 

 

To be fair, transfer points are a little different because you already walked to access the bus, and then you have to walk to make your transfer. But that's not to say that transfer points should bring you door-to-door for your connection. A one block walk in this case is acceptable, since the fact that the bus saves those extra turns and lights means you'll probably make up that time anyway.

 

 

 

I don't think that necessarily has to do with staying on schedule. That could very well just be incompetence and/or poor training. For example, on school trippers, some B/Os think that "It's just for the schoolkids", when that is against FTA regulations. They have to allow anybody who wants to board, and they have to stop at all the stops just like a regular bus. Now, it's one thing when the bus is crowded and there's an emptier one right behind it, so you skip some stops to keep things moving, but to have a whole pack of buses just bypass you is unacceptable.

 

Maybe since it starts at a college, they have that "tripper" mentality, even if they're not actually listed as one. That definitely needs to be looked into, on the B1 specifically, and in general.

 

The thing is that increasing the bus stop spacing makes the buses more reliable. How many times have we seen it where the bus pulls into the stop, misses the light, then pulls into the next stop and misses that light too? Multiply that by the length of the route, and before you know it, buses are 10-15 minutes late and bunched up.

 

A quarter mile is a bit excessive. Three to four blocks should be enough to provide the right balance between access and speed. Like I said, an extra city block generally won't make much of a difference. (If you see the bus while you're walking that extra block, then as long as you're able-bodied, and I understand some aren't, you can jog/run that extra block to catch the bus)

Too bad you and the others responding don't remember what it was like prior to 1969 when drivers had to give change. Buses would routinely take 30 to 90 seconds at each stop for passengers to board and you know what very few were complaining about buses being slow. The major complaints were bus bunching, problems with bus operators and the lack of free transfers. Problems 2 and 3 are pretty much gone now and there was also much less traffic back then so although boarding times were greater, total trip times were not. Yes, people live up to dip their MetroCards, but boarding times are like three times faster now than they were 50 years ago.

 

As far as people taking too much time to get on and off, I only see that the case with the elderly and handicapped, or if someone is blocking their path. Generally, people move as fast as they can and young people are just much more impatient than their elders. I know for a fact I used to board and get off much more quicker when I was a kid. Older people have just as much right to use the bus system as anyone else and in areas with great senior concentrations, the bus system needs to cater to them, not ignore them by encouraging them to use other forms of transportation.

 

We cater to school kids by providing those trippers. Seniors are no different. In many cities buses stop only every quarter mile because it is their only form of mass transit. Buses also have to double as subways.

 

You are also forgetting that walking that extra block greatly increases your chance of missing a bus that could easily add ten minutes to your trip. If it us only a 30 minute trip, that's a 33 percent increase in travel time. That also has to be considered, especially if the stop that is eliminated has few passengers boarding.

 

As for the topography issue, I believe it is safe to say the MTA only considered it after there were complaints, not in their initial planning.

 

A one block walk at a transfer point is acceptable if it is avoidable, but not in a case where there are a million transfers a year. I believe the particular B36 transfer point we are discussing is the sixth largest in the borough.

 

B1 buses skipping stops is not due to incompetence and poor training of bus drivers. It may be the case for dispatchers at the College. I have been discussing this issue with those in charge at the MTA for over six years now. They keep promising to correct the situation. They place signs in the depot which only helps for about three weeks. Then it's business as usual. In cases where buses are too full leaving the college, drivers have tried to leave with room for future passengers to board, only to be threatened by the students. Dispatchers also have instructed drivers to skip all stops prior to the subway so that only one bus every half hour stops after the college and before the subway. This is wrong also. Thirty minute headways during the rush hour is unacceptable for this route.

 

As far as drivers operating the trippers thinking they can skip stops when not instructed, how do you explain live haul buses doing the same with only five or ten standees if not to make up tine to stay on schedule.

This is a bit silly. If blocks vary in size, make the spacing contingent on distance. European and Asian systems, as a rule of thumb, generally do not have buses stop any more than every 400m (so every 1/4 mile), if the street network isn't very indirect. We're trying to compete with motor transportation, not with walking.

 

Obviously if there are big demand generators, you adjust spacing, but that's just shifting a particular stop rather than adding more stops.

I wasn't talking about adding more stops. I was saying that if you switch from two to three block spacing and then still stop at major traffic generators, you May have a few instances with bus stops only one or two blocks apart.

[BrooklynBus]

 

Now as to the constant bell-ringing, THAT is something that irritates me to no end.  Stop and pick up 4 or 5 people at one stop, close the door and someone has to ring for the next stop, where there's nobody boarding (not that they actually look).  BUT, to make things worse, that person COULD have exited and WALKED the extra two blocks in the time we're waiting for those people to board.

I find that the constant bell ringing you are talking about occurs mostly when buses are late. When they are on time, usually about 25 percent of the stops are skipped because no one wants to get on or off.

[BrooklynBus]

We also pay for this slow service with our time. Many people taking the buses amounts to many man-hours lost to what should be a quick commute. Perhaps a better compromise would be to make 2 out of 3 buses make limited stops. Those limited stops would be about 5 Manhattan street blocks apart (or the equivalent distance). It would do a lot to encourage people to coalesce around fewer stops. People who really can’t walk, of course, would go to the closest stop regardless. But their antics will be bothering less people since limited bus driver will not stop at all the extraneous stops. Of course, there should also be a maximum delay between local buses… something that is infrequent enough that it discourages lazy able-bodied folks from spreading themselves among 5 stops in a quarter mile stretch.Right now, my sprinting speed is competitive with Seagate-bound buses coming out of Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. It’s hard to believe that skipping stops would not save time from a passenger-centric point of view.

I believe that traffic is much more of a cause for slow buses than is too many stops. Having two out of three limited to one local is a bad idea given the amount of bus bunching we have. Thirty minute waits at local stops would be routine and that us not fair to local passengers. Also, I have seen many limited standing at a red light at a local stop. It would make sense for the Limited to pick up the one or two people waiting if those passengers could use a Limited since no time is being saved anyway by the bus by skipping the stop and those waiting would wait less for a bus.

 

And as I said, it would make no sense for example for a Lexington Avenue bye to stop every five blocks at the same stops the subway local stops. The bus is there to complement the subway, not to compete with it. It needs to have more stops.

 

Skipping stops would save the buses time in sine cases, but not in all of them. As I stated earlier, if the bus stops are lightly used, it takes the same time if there were 15 stops than if there were only ten and more frequent stops provides better service. In such a case eliminating bus stops only makes sense if you want to increase the number of parking spaces. If all the stops are heavily utilized, the additional dwell time at remaining stops more or less balances out the time saved by the elimination of stops except for acceleration and deceleration time saved.

Well my question is or rather my comment to that is more stops made means slower service.  Not only do these people ring for EVERY stop, they also take FOREVER to get off.  People have this concept that they can for whatever reason take more time boarding and getting off as opposed to other forms of transit (i.e. subways, and other trains).  I guess they think the driver is obligated to wait for them forever.  I think that's another reason the wants to roll out SBS service because with SBS you pay before you get on so there is no need for the driver to sit and wait around.  Buses have become like taxis where people stroll to get on, then hold everyone up trying to get out their Metrocard etc.   With local bus service, a driver can't just close the door and go because the passenger could file a complaint and make a stink. I think that's what needs to be addressed.  We have to make buses run more efficiently and spend less time dwelling at stops.  It will be very interesting to see what new payment system the puts in place because we need something where people can pay for ALL buses prior to boarding.  That would make a huge difference alone.

I have pretty much replied to your comments in my responses to the others so I won't repeat myself.

[checkmatechamp13]

A pretty common setup in other cities is skip-stop service; so, there are bus stops every two blocks, but group A of buses stop at 14th, 18th, 22nd, etc. and group B stops at 16th, 20th, 24th, etc.

 

The problem is it's annoying when you split the frequencies like that. I'd rather a local/limited setup (or if you're going to do skip-stop, at least have a few common stops that are reasonably close together, like say every 1/2 mile or so)

 

You are also forgetting that walking that extra block greatly increases your chance of missing a bus that could easily add ten minutes to your trip. If it us only a 30 minute trip, that's a 33 percent increase in travel time. That also has to be considered, especially if the stop that is eliminated has few passengers boarding.

 

As for the topography issue, I believe it is safe to say the MTA only considered it after there were complaints, not in their initial planning.

 

A one block walk at a transfer point is acceptable if it is avoidable, but not in a case where there are a million transfers a year. I believe the particular B36 transfer point we are discussing is the sixth largest in the borough.

 

B1 buses skipping stops is not due to incompetence and poor training of bus drivers. It may be the case for dispatchers at the College. I have been discussing this issue with those in charge at the MTA for over six years now. They keep promising to correct the situation. They place signs in the depot which only helps for about three weeks. Then it's business as usual. In cases where buses are too full leaving the college, drivers have tried to leave with room for future passengers to board, only to be threatened by the students. Dispatchers also have instructed drivers to skip all stops prior to the subway so that only one bus every half hour stops after the college and before the subway. This is wrong also. Thirty minute headways during the rush hour is unacceptable for this route.

 

As far as drivers operating the trippers thinking they can skip stops when not instructed, how do you explain live haul buses doing the same with only five or ten standees if not to make up tine to stay on schedule.

 

I wasn't talking about adding more stops. I was saying that if you switch from two to three block spacing and then still stop at major traffic generators, you May have a few instances with bus stops only one or two blocks apart.

 

 

I believe that traffic is much more of a cause for slow buses than is too many stops. Having two out of three limited to one local is a bad idea given the amount of bus bunching we have. Thirty minute waits at local stops would be routine and that us not fair to local passengers. Also, I have seen many limited standing at a red light at a local stop. It would make sense for the Limited to pick up the one or two people waiting if those passengers could use a Limited since no time is being saved anyway by the bus by skipping the stop and those waiting would wait less for a bus.

 

Living on Staten Island where traffic is less of an issue relative to the other boroughs, I can think of quite a few portions of routes where closely spaced bus stops make a wide open section into a slow one.