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Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure


Lance

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Ok well i see a problem with this shutdown:

Riders who live East of Myrtle-Wycoff on the (L) will transfer to the (M) at Myrtle, but here's the problem, the ridership load at this station would increase dramatically, which can cause safety concerns. 

Another thing:

If the (M) is going to run to 96th St on weekends, won't that create a bottleneck at Lex-63rd?

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11 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Riders who live East of Myrtle-Wycoff on the (L) will transfer to the (M) at Myrtle, but here's the problem, the ridership load at this station would increase dramatically, which can cause safety concerns. 

 

Don't Forget Broadway Jct you'd filter people off there as well.   So fewer riders before even getting to Myrtle.

 

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

If the (M) is going to run to 96th St on weekends, won't that create a bottleneck at Lex-63rd?

Wouldnt headways be spaced enough?  When the (F) ran via Broadway a few weeks back were there bottleneck issues? What're the planed (M) headways.

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21 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

That to, but don't forget to factor in 2 or 3 stations East of Myrtle as well, since most riders would rather take the (M) then take the shuttle bus.

 

Sure maybe i've factored that wouldn't the (G) sponge some of that up as well ? So a percent of a percent.

Edited by RailRunRob
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18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I completely forgot about the (G), but then again the (G) doesn't go into Manhattan and it acts as a feeder route between QBL Canarsie Culver and Fulton, and most people would rather have a one seat ride to Manhattan then transfer between two trains.

I think the word rather is going to be suspended along with the (L) for 15 months during this shutdown. If I'm going to Midtown from Grand Ave and I can't get to Union Square for the transfer (7)(E) and (M) will do..  The (G) as you said is going to feed riders to other lines.  It could be a 3 seat ride for some folks.  Extreme times call for extreme measures. What more can you do?

Edited by RailRunRob
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21 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I completely forgot about the (G), but then again the (G) doesn't go into Manhattan and it acts as a feeder route between QBL Canarsie Culver and Fulton, and most people would rather have a one seat ride to Manhattan then transfer between two trains.

I'm sure most riders would rather this closure to not happen at all. Unfortunately, that isn't an option. Affected riders will have to make do with the (G) and other methods of getting around through the duration of the closure.

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22 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Ok well i see a problem with this shutdown:

Riders who live East of Myrtle-Wycoff on the (L) will transfer to the (M) at Myrtle, but here's the problem, the ridership load at this station would increase dramatically, which can cause safety concerns. 

Another thing:

If the (M) is going to run to 96th St on weekends, won't that create a bottleneck at Lex-63rd?

Not at all.  Most here know my view if splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) with the (T) being 24/7 between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd.  I suspect when the (M) does go to 96/2nd on late nights and weekends consistently, there will be pressure from those on the upper east side to make the (M) go there 24/7, which is why I do the split in anticipation of those on the UES (who has massive political clout) wanting a 6th Avenue option at all times. 

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22 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not at all.  Most here know my view if splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) with the (T) being 24/7 between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd.  I suspect when the (M) does go to 96/2nd on late nights and weekends consistently, there will be pressure from those on the upper east side to make the (M) go there 24/7, which is why I do the split in anticipation of those on the UES (who has massive political clout) wanting a 6th Avenue option at all times. 

Using what 6th Avenue capacity? 6th Avenue is a cross-platform transfer away from SAS at 63rd and Lex, and a block or less from Broadway between 57th and 23rd. If providing a redundant additional option means creating a bottleneck at 63rd on lines which already have too many bottlenecks, then the people on the UES can cry me a river.

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A possibility is splitting the (L) into two sections. One section runs from Bedford to Broadway Jct upper level, while the other runs from Canarsie to the center track on the (J) level at Broadway/Eastern Pkwy.

Pros:

-Riders at Atlantic, Sutter, New Lots, Livonia, E105, and Canarsie have a cross platform transfer to the (J).

-These riders will be less inclined to crowd the (G) and (M), which will be full of riders from the rest of the (L) which has higher ridership.

Cons:

-Riders south of Broadway Jct going somewhere on the (L) between Bedford and Broadway Jct need to make a non-ADA accessible transfer at Broadway Jct.

-This proposal doesn't help much in Manhattan because Midtown riders will still transfer to something from the (J) or avoid it entirely and take the (A) from Broadway Junction.

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2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I already made this proposal. Apparently there won't be enough space because Nassau will be at full capacity when the (L) shuts down.

He said it would run from the center track on the (J) platform. Essentially, it would be a shuttle train between Broadway/Eastern Pkwy and Canarsie. So it would not affect capacity on Nassau St at all. And where did you hear that Nassau would be at “full capacity” once the (L) shuts down?

2 hours ago, P3F said:

A possibility is splitting the (L) into two sections. One section runs from Bedford to Broadway Jct upper level, while the other runs from Canarsie to the center track on the (J) level at Broadway/Eastern Pkwy.

Pros:

-Riders at Atlantic, Sutter, New Lots, Livonia, E105, and Canarsie have a cross platform transfer to the (J).

-These riders will be less inclined to crowd the (G) and (M), which will be full of riders from the rest of the (L) which has higher ridership.

Cons:

-Riders south of Broadway Jct going somewhere on the (L) between Bedford and Broadway Jct need to make a non-ADA accessible transfer at Broadway Jct.

-This proposal doesn't help much in Manhattan because Midtown riders will still transfer to something from the (J) or avoid it entirely and take the (A) from Broadway Junction.

Unfortunately, the track setup at Broadway-Eastern Pkwy won’t permit this shuttle service, at least not during rush hours. The tracks connecting the Canarsie Line to the Jamaica El connect to the outer tracks only, so terminating an (L) train to/from Canarsie on the center (J) track is not possible. There have been times where they’ve terminated (L) trains on the outer Manhattan-bound (J) track, but during weekend track work, when there is much less service running through there. Trains have to reverse back out of the Broadway Junction and can’t switch back to the Canarsie-bound track until after Atlantic Ave. If I'm not mistaken, those (L) trains ran on 24-minute headways due to the single-tracking from Atlantic to Broadway Jct. You’d never be able to run a service like this on weekdays.

If it wasn’t for track capacity constraints on the Williamsburg Bridge and the 6th Ave local tracks and the planned increase in (M) service, I’d suggest continuing the Canarsie-Broadway Jct trains into Midtown Manhattan via the (J)(F) and (Q) lines, terminating at 96th and 2nd.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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16 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not at all.  Most here know my view if splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) with the (T) being 24/7 between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd.  I suspect when the (M) does go to 96/2nd on late nights and weekends consistently, there will be pressure from those on the upper east side to make the (M) go there 24/7, which is why I do the split in anticipation of those on the UES (who has massive political clout) wanting a 6th Avenue option at all times.

You greatly overestimate such pressure and political clout...if it even exists today. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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On 2/13/2018 at 2:49 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

Unfortunately, the track setup at Broadway-Eastern Pkwy won’t permit this shuttle service, at least not during rush hours. The tracks connecting the Canarsie Line to the Jamaica El connect to the outer tracks only, so terminating an (L) train to/from Canarsie on the center (J) track is not possible. There have been times where they’ve terminated (L) trains on the outer Manhattan-bound (J) track, but during weekend track work, when there is much less service running through there. Trains have to reverse back out of the Broadway Junction and can’t switch back to the Canarsie-bound track until after Atlantic Ave. If I'm not mistaken, those (L) trains ran on 24-minute headways due to the single-tracking from Atlantic to Broadway Jct. You’d never be able to run a service like this on weekdays.

 


The way to do it for non single track is to put the (L) on the local track, have the (J) go up the middle track a B'way (J3) and cross back to the local.  The L then relays on J3 south of B'Jct. You can squeeze 6tph that way. Whether thats enough, or effective I can't say. But it does have the appeal of not having everyone ride to Myrtle and jump ship.

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On 2/13/2018 at 7:35 AM, officiallyliam said:

Using what 6th Avenue capacity? 6th Avenue is a cross-platform transfer away from SAS at 63rd and Lex, and a block or less from Broadway between 57th and 23rd. If providing a redundant additional option means creating a bottleneck at 63rd on lines which already have too many bottlenecks, then the people on the UES can cry me a river.

There I believe is 5-7 TPH of capacity on the 6th Avenue local that on weekdays would in my scenario be filled by the (T) half of this (M) and (T) split (actually an expansion from Metropolitan to 13 TPH total at peak times with the (T) 5 TPH at all times on weekdays) with the (M) remaining as it is now and the (T) becoming 24/7 between Metropilitan and 96th/2nd.  Yes, you have the merge at 63rd, but I suspect that can be handled.

On 2/14/2018 at 12:01 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

You greatly overestimate such pressure and political clout...if it even exists today. 

As one who actually grew up on the Upper East Side, I don't think so at all.  There will be those that to me will want this (T) that I would be running between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd that would give SAS riders a 6th Avenue option at all times.  A lot of them, especially in bad weather who work in Rockerfeller Plaza would want to be able to take such a (T) there because many such would then be able to take that line from whichever station they get on at and not have to be outside at all other than between their home and the station they get on that.  That would be a BIG thing for many that live on the UES and actually work inside Rockerfeller Center.  

And yes, I do think the political clout is there.  The UES has a ton of it from what I remember and they are not afraid to use it.

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18 minutes ago, VIP said:

(T) service won’t be active until the second phase of SAS. Why is anyone bringing up that letter now? 

 

1 minute ago, GreatOne2k said:

Third phase will be the (T), second phase is just a (Q) extension.

That's not what his point is. 

People are bringing up the (T) letter for a "supplemental service" to the (M) going to 96 St-2 Av in @Wallyhorse's dreams...

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14 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

That's not what his point is. 

People are bringing up the (T) letter for a "supplemental service" to the (M) going to 96 St-2 Av in @Wallyhorse's dreams...

I do that because I do believe once the (M) starts going to 96/2 on weekends there will be political pressure (as well as from people who actually LIVE on the UES) to make that seven days a week at all times so they have 6th Avenue service,  

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

I do that because I do believe once the (M) starts going to 96/2 on weekends there will be political pressure (as well as from people who actually LIVE on the UES) to make that seven days a week at all times so they have 6th Avenue service,  

If they want 6 Av service, they can take the (Q) and transfer at Lex Av-63 St.

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