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JFK and a one seat ride.


RailRunRob

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Yep the CTA has quite a bit experience with this as well with the orange and green lines.

 

 

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It's not hard to do that but it still wouldn't be a one seat ride unless you maybe used the subway with via a bypass on the LIRR right of way then via the Air train and reconfigure the stations within JFK it's self.

 

 

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But none of those ever had a connection to a main line railroad, like PATH and SIR did...

True your right there used to be a switch outside of Harrison. On the PATH. Also there's a barrier or a gate separating the two in each of those other cases CTA included. Not the case with the PATH.  Kinda off topic wasn't there a connection between the LIRR BayRidge and the Canarsie Line right outside of New Lots Ave? 

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True your right there used to be a switch outside of Harrison. On the PATH. Also there's a barrier or a gate separating the two in each of those other cases CTA included. Not the case with the PATH.  Kinda off topic wasn't there a connection between the LIRR BayRidge and the Canarsie Line right outside of New Lots Ave? 

 

It's still there I think, but its un electrified and unsignalled I think...

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Kinda off topic wasn't there a connection between the LIRR BayRidge and the Canarsie Line right outside of New Lots Ave?

 

It's still there I think, but its un electrified and unsignalled I think...

That connection does not still exist. There is a connection, however, through Linden Yard.

That connection to the Canarsie bound track was removed during the CBTC instalation. The indirect one via Linden shops is still there. Along with the flyover to the New Lots line, the Canarsie branch has no 3rd rail and the signal limits end at the junction between the 2 segments.
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ROW they can share, but not track, unless there's a time separation agreement.

Never suggested otherwise. I was objecting to a comment about path having to comply with FRA standards b/c is shares w/freight/nec from JS to NWK.

 

Aaaaaanyway, now that that's cleared up, back to 1 seat to JFK.

What standards was the AirTrain built to? Could you run at the very least 60' cars on its tracks?

I'll elaborate later, incoherently tired now.

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Never suggested otherwise. I was objecting to a comment about path having to comply with FRA standards b/c is shares w/freight/nec from JS to NWK.

 

Aaaaaanyway, now that that's cleared up, back to 1 seat to JFK.

What standards was the AirTrain built to? Could you run at the very least 60' cars on its tracks?

I'll elaborate later, incoherently tired now.

 

The AirTrain is a standard medium capacity people mover that primarily links the terminals together with the rental car center and long-term parking. The Howard Beach and Jamaica terminals allow for no-transfer subway rides into Downtown Brooklyn, the Financial District, and Midtown.

 

I second the notion that there's no need for direct subway or mainline rail service into the airport. Building the QBL bypass and/or Rockaway Beach Branch lines will allow for the faster subway rides that the RPA wants while actually benefiting local residents who need to commute into Manhattan.

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Never suggested otherwise. I was objecting to a comment about path having to comply with FRA standards b/c is shares w/freight/nec from JS to NWK.

 

Aaaaaanyway, now that that's cleared up, back to 1 seat to JFK.

What standards was the AirTrain built to? Could you run at the very least 60' cars on its tracks?

I'll elaborate later, incoherently tired now.

 

I'm pretty sure the AirTrain is built to tighter standards than the subway. The main problem though has always been the fact that AirTrain uses linear induction as propulsion (similar to maglev systems) instead of normal electric propulsion, and dual-mode trains simply do not exist.

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The idea of building trainsets that can operate on both AirTrain tracks and LIRR tracks, for the purpose of a one-seat ride, has already been studied in detail by the MTA. Here is the 2001 report:

 

http://origin-states.politico.com.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/files/JFK%20One-Seat.pdf

 

Summary: It would require very special trains that effectively combine a 4-car AirTrain with a LIRR M7. It would look like an AirTrain with an operator's cab at each end. It would have two of everything: both types of propulsion, both types of signal system, and both types of comms systems. It would also need to raise and lower 6-7 inches. It could be done, it would just be an unusually expensive and complex machine. Frankly, I can't imagine reliability would be all that great. But technically, it could be done. 

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The idea of building trainsets that can operate on both AirTrain tracks and LIRR tracks, for the purpose of a one-seat ride, has already been studied in detail by the MTA. Here is the 2001 report:

 

http://origin-states.politico.com.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/files/JFK%20One-Seat.pdf

 

Summary: It would require very special trains that effectively combine a 4-car AirTrain with a LIRR M7. It would look like an AirTrain with an operator's cab at each end. It would have two of everything: both types of propulsion, both types of signal system, and both types of comms systems. It would also need to raise and lower 6-7 inches. It could be done, it would just be an unusually expensive and complex machine. Frankly, I can't imagine reliability would be all that great. But technically, it could be done. 

 

Yikes. They were seriously pitching something like the Milbrae-SFO wye at Jamaica Station, and that ended up horribly for BART.

 

while i am here is there a way to run a similar service like in Hong kong which has in-city checkin?

 

Eh, now that most airlines let you check in online or on your phone it's really not that great of a service perk anymore.

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Eh, now that most airlines let you check in online or on your phone it's really not that great of a service perk anymore.

 

supposedly i hear it is very popular in HKG. supposedly i heard when they tried the lower manhattan-jfk after 9-11 that was part of the plan

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supposedly i hear it is very popular in HKG. supposedly i heard when they tried the lower manhattan-jfk after 9-11 that was part of the plan

 

I mean, the service has been up and running since 1998 in HKG (and it's only really convenient for businesspeople - should we be building trains just for businesspeople?)

 

They also considered this after 9-11 in 2001, when everyone was on 2G and all your phone could do was call or send a text at something like 25 cents a message. Times have changed.

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Any "one-seat-ride" to JFK has always had two problems;

 

  • The circular layout of JFK's terminals means that a train of subway or LIRR length can only really serve one terminal, maybe two. So the vast majority of people are still going to transfer to the AirTrain.
  • The Passenger Facilities Charge that funded the AirTrain and that would probably fund this can only be used on train lines that serve only the airport and major transportation hubs, which means to say that there can be no local stops along any such rail line built using that money. So express service on the RBB, or Atlantic, or SAS means dedicating those tracks to an express service to midtown, which quite frankly is a huge waste of money.

There is also something to be said about prioritizing the needs of a few monied travelers who already have rail options to airports over the everyday commuter pressed against the walls of our overcrowded subway trains, to say nothing of those everyday commuters who then have to schlep onto a bus for the next hour of their journey.

 

Right....also the SIZE of JFK makes it an issue. Even traveling by car, you can be driving in the airport for a good 20 minutes. My first time through, I was even shocked.

 

JFK is truly humongous....

 

So, there will always be a need for an intra-airport transportation system like the AIRTRAIN. You are correct, sir.

 

Any new transportation option should ease travel to our airports WHILE helping everyday commuters.

 

No reason why we can't do both. Maybe a line that doesn't just go TO the Airport, but through it....also using existing infrastructure when possible. Just a thought.

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Any new transportation option should ease travel to our airports WHILE helping everyday commuters.

 

No reason why we can't do both. Maybe a line that doesn't just go TO the Airport, but through it....also using existing infrastructure when possible. Just a thought.

Maybe use the connection to JFK as a way to get Phase 3 of the SAS and the Queens Blvd Bypass built?

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Right....also the SIZE of JFK makes it an issue. Even traveling by car, you can be driving in the airport for a good 20 minutes. My first time through, I was even shocked.

 

JFK is truly humongous....

 

So, there will always be a need for an intra-airport transportation system like the AIRTRAIN. You are correct, sir.

 

Any new transportation option should ease travel to our airports WHILE helping everyday commuters.

 

No reason why we can't do both. Maybe a line that doesn't just go TO the Airport, but through it....also using existing infrastructure when possible. Just a thought.

 

The problem with that is that anything you could possibly serve via JFK is probably slower than just what we have today, and there's not a lot west or south of JFK. And like I said earlier, airport money can't cover anything that isn't strictly related to the Airport, which is why the AirTrain has no intermediate stops on the Van Wyck.

Maybe use the connection to JFK as a way to get Phase 3 of the SAS and the Queens Blvd Bypass built?

 

See above statement about airport money.

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The problem with that is that anything you could possibly serve via JFK is probably slower than just what we have today, and there's not a lot west or south of JFK. And like I said earlier, airport money can't cover anything that isn't strictly related to the Airport, which is why the AirTrain has no intermediate stops on the Van Wyck.

 

See above statement about airport money.

 

I guess then the question becomes, Does anything you build for an Airport, have to be built with "Airport money"? If someone wanted to get around that rule couldn't they just not earmark it as "Airport money" or is there something I'm missing here?

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Maybe use the connection to JFK as a way to get Phase 3 of the SAS and the Queens Blvd Bypass built?

maybe....or create an LIRR connection using say the Atlantic Terminal branch connected to a rebuilt  LIRR tracks to Howard Beach JFK? Let's say it then goes east (where the air train does) via a new 4-5 mile extension relinking it back to either the Far Rockaway branch or the Long Beach Branch or the Montauk Branch. You could have a LIRR station at Howard beach/JFK  and another one at Federal Circle inside the airport.

 

How about with a tunnel to Lower Manhattan too?

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I guess then the question becomes, Does anything you build for an Airport, have to be built with "Airport money"? If someone wanted to get around that rule couldn't they just not earmark it as "Airport money" or is there something I'm missing here?

 

This is where it becomes an issue of political turfs. You have several sources of money here:

 

  • The MTA (broke and not interested)
  • The Port Authority (even more broke, since they've got to pay for PABT, Gateway, Moniyhan, LGA, the JFK rehab, PATH to Newark, AirTrain to LGA, etc., and New Jersey is not about to allow another toll raise)
  • The City (possibly interested, but rather low on the priority list)
  • The State (broke, already has several funding questions that have to be answered)
  • The Feds (requires a local contribution before they start forking over money)

 

There are just not enough compelling reasons to build a direct rail link to JFK, when a perfectly good two-seat link already exists. In fact, multiple two-seat links exist. Because of the opportunity costs involved, no project is better than settling for any project.

maybe....or create an LIRR connection using say the Atlantic Terminal branch connected to a rebuilt  LIRR tracks to Howard Beach JFK? Let's say it then goes east (where the air train does) via a new 4-5 mile extension relinking it back to either the Far Rockaway branch or the Long Beach Branch or the Montauk Branch. You could have a LIRR station at Howard beach/JFK  and another one at Federal Circle inside the airport.

 

How about with a tunnel to Lower Manhattan too?

 

Recipe for low ridership. Far Rockaway and Long Beach already have Atlantic Terminal access, and have low ridership. No one is going to use an airport link from Long Island if the only way you can get to it is via trains that go through Valley Stream. The only part of the project that would have merit would be to extend the Atlantic Branch to the vicinity of Fulton, but that would be the most expensive section for an otherwise poorly performing route; none of the parallel bus routes or subway routes to the Atlantic Branch are overcrowded.

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He's in agreement with most of us. First and foremost, infrastructure is built to connect high-volume origins with high-density destinations. An airport can never be a high-density destination, simply because not everyone flies everyday. Premium fares also deter airport employees from using the stop, and people with lots of luggage have ample taxis and coach buses to choose from.

 

I think the best airport lines are just normal commuter or subway lines which happen to serve the airport without forcing a circuitous route. Tier 1 would be Sydney, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Osaka, Singapore, Paris, and Seoul (note how most of these lie in Asia?). NYC lies in Tier 2 with London: Airtrain to the (E) or LIRR at Jamaica is already quite good. 

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He's in agreement with most of us. First and foremost, infrastructure is built to connect high-volume origins with high-density destinations. An airport can never be a high-density destination, simply because not everyone flies everyday. Premium fares also deter airport employees from using the stop, and people with lots of luggage have ample taxis and coach buses to choose from.

 

I think the best airport lines are just normal commuter or subway lines which happen to serve the airport without forcing a circuitous route. Tier 1 would be Sydney, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Osaka, Singapore, Paris, and Seoul (note how most of these lie in Asia?). NYC lies in Tier 2 with London: Airtrain to the (E) or LIRR at Jamaica is already quite good. 

 

Good argument, however London belongs in Tier 1, because the Piccadilly Line directly serves each terminal...

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