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    Is Penn Station via the MNRR Hudson Line a Possibility Again?


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    #21 bobtehpanda

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:17 PM

    2020 is 3 years away is time to at least ask the questions.

     

    East Side Access is always six years away, because six years ago it was "six years away". Gateway is also looking very iffy.

     

    All this talk is just talk unless someone can actually make the walk, but the walk isn't possible unless either of those projects wrap up. And even then, the Penn Station Access via the New Haven Line is more of a political priority right now.


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    #22 Via Garibaldi 8

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:32 PM

    East Side Access is always six years away, because six years ago it was "six years away". Gateway is also looking very iffy.

     

    All this talk is just talk unless someone can actually make the walk, but the walk isn't possible unless either of those projects wrap up. And even then, the Penn Station Access via the New Haven Line is more of a political priority right now.

    Exactly.  I think it would make more sense to really push this once East Side Access is done.  For now studying the logistics makes sense.


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    #23 RailRunRob

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:33 PM

    East Side Access is always six years away, because six years ago it was "six years away". Gateway is also looking very iffy.

     

    All this talk is just talk unless someone can actually make the walk, but the walk isn't possible unless either of those projects wrap up. And even then, the Penn Station Access via the New Haven Line is more of a political priority right now.

    But isn't that the point? At least for the forum, we all come here to be able to talk and go back and forth on ideas. You know all the stuff normal people don't look twice at.  (Shrugs) We talk about all the plans that never made it second system. Impact statements from 1998,2004 so on so. never stopped anyone else from talking and planning. Six years is nothing.   


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    #24 RailRunRob

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:48 PM

    Exactly.  I think it would make more sense to really push this once East Side Access is done.  For now studying the logistics makes sense.

    But it's simple math. It's not hard to at least have an idea of what kinda of capacity you'd have open with the ESA and the extra tracks with Penn South plus the new New Haven access which if it came down to it we all know is going to win. None of your logistics mean for nothing if capacity doesn't allow for it. You're merging into existing traffic. So yeah how many cars you plan on coming down entry ramp kinda matters it might dictate whether the services is even possible from jump.


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    #25 Via Garibaldi 8

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:56 PM

    But it's simple math. It's not hard to at least have an idea of what kinda of capacity you'd have open with the ESA and the extra tracks with Penn South plus the new New Haven access which if it came down to it we all know is going to win. None of your logistics mean for nothing if capacity doesn't allow for it. You're merging into existing traffic. So yeah how many cars you plan on coming down entry ramp kinda matters it might dictate whether the services is even possible from jump.

    Well they can do a study for that.  The New Haven Line Penn Station project is all but done in terms of it being the #1 priority.  Quite frankly I'm sure the Assemblyman has thought about all of the things you're discussing. For me having Metro-North run to Penn Station would be nice, but I'm not losing sleep over it.  I'm happy with Metro-North going to Grand Central.  For the West Side, I use the express bus anyway.


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    #26 bobtehpanda

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:00 PM

    But isn't that the point? At least for the forum, we all come here to be able to talk and go back and forth on ideas. You know all the stuff normal people don't look twice at.  (Shrugs) We talk about all the plans that never made it second system. Impact statements from 1998,2004 so on so. never stopped anyone else from talking and planning. Six years is nothing.   

     

    Quite frankly, with the MTA shoveling money into the giant fire pit that is East Side Access, the suburban-oriented parts of the MTA need to refocus their energies on serving their customers and keeping costs down instead of building giant, flashy new projects. For example, money that could be going to this could also be going to replacing the LIRR and MNR's ridiculously unreliable diesel fleets, for which there is no timeline for replacing; yet replacing and expanding them would be a easy way to fix and improve services for a lot of people. And this is before we talk about all the electrification expansions that got mothballed in favor of the diesel electric fleet in the first place.

     

    It's also not absolutely necessary, given that 1) GCT is not at capacity, and 2) there's nothing really that convenient to Penn Station in the first place. Something like 75% of jobs in Midtown are a 15-minute walk from GCT, which is the entire reason why East Side Access is happening in the first place.


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    #27 Via Garibaldi 8

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:02 PM

    Quite frankly, with the MTA shoveling money into the giant fire pit that is East Side Access, the suburban-oriented parts of the MTA need to refocus their energies on serving their customers and keeping costs down instead of building giant, flashy new projects. For example, money that could be going to this could also be going to replacing the LIRR and MNR's ridiculously unreliable diesel fleets, for which there is no timeline for replacing; yet replacing and expanding them would be a easy way to fix and improve services for a lot of people. And this is before we talk about all the electrification expansions that got mothballed in favor of the diesel electric fleet in the first place.

     

    It's also not absolutely necessary, given that 1) GCT is not at capacity, and 2) there's nothing really that convenient to Penn Station in the first place. Something like 75% of jobs in Midtown are a 15-minute walk from GCT, which is the entire reason why East Side Access is happening in the first place.

    Exactly, and aside from that reaching Penn Station from GCT isn't that big of a deal for the people that need it.


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    #28 RailRunRob

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:36 PM

    Quite frankly, with the MTA shoveling money into the giant fire pit that is East Side Access, the suburban-oriented parts of the MTA need to refocus their energies on serving their customers and keeping costs down instead of building giant, flashy new projects. For example, money that could be going to this could also be going to replacing the LIRR and MNR's ridiculously unreliable diesel fleets, for which there is no timeline for replacing; yet replacing and expanding them would be a easy way to fix and improve services for a lot of people. And this is before we talk about all the electrification expansions that got mothballed in favor of the diesel electric fleet in the first place.

     

    It's also not absolutely necessary, given that 1) GCT is not at capacity, and 2) there's nothing really that convenient to Penn Station in the first place. Something like 75% of jobs in Midtown are a 15-minute walk from GCT, which is the entire reason why East Side Access is happening in the first place.

    Not saying I disagree everything you just said makes perfect sense. My point was if was if were going to play Transit planner and Engineer let's do it right. Let's make sure were asking the right questions and looking at the right numbers. Myself included if I'm wrong by all means. You crunch the numbers if doesn't make sense you reallocate it where it does. Reasonable.


    Exactly, and aside from that reaching Penn Station from GCT isn't that big of a deal for the people that need it.

    I hear you but what was the point of this discussion if the conclusion is it's not really necessary? I just felt like I just detoured through Queens to get to New Jersey from Manhattan. (Scratches head) :huh:


    Edited by RailRunRob, 09 January 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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    #29 Via Garibaldi 8

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:20 PM

    I hear you but what was the point of this discussion if the conclusion is it's not really necessary? I just felt like I just detoured through Queens to get to New Jersey from Manhattan. (Scratches head) :huh:

    What it comes down to is people move to places that provide transportation to where they need to go.  The point I made earlier in the thread was that this project could open up more possibilities for communities in Westchester and Riverdale to attract people who otherwise wouldn't consider these areas. The project isn't a must for the New Haven Line or the East Bronx communities, either but it makes sense to have it. For example, people that do work in West Midtown and live in Riverdale, currently either have to take the express bus (subject to delays) and or take Metro-North and back track from Grand Central.  For neighborhoods without subway access, more commuter rail service seems like a no brainer.  


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    #30 RailRunRob

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    Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:44 PM

    What it comes down to is people move to places that provide transportation to where they need to go.  The point I made earlier in the thread was that this project could open up more possibilities for communities in Westchester and Riverdale to attract people who otherwise wouldn't consider these areas. The project isn't a must for the New Haven Line or the East Bronx communities, either but it makes sense to have it. For example, people that do work in West Midtown and live in Riverdale, currently either have to take the express bus (subject to delays) and or take Metro-North and back track from Grand Central.  For neighborhoods without subway access, more commuter rail service seems like a no brainer.  

    You have a point it's not a must for either. But once you establish that you have to ask what's easier to bring make a reality? You don't have to do much on the New Haven just add the Stations, Substations and a mile of 3rd rail. On the Hudson side, you have to possibly rebuild a swing bridge, Electrify the line from the Bronx to the 40's then add the stations. That's my point. The New Haven carries 3x the passengers as the Hudson 125k people a day the justification is there for Penn Access.  Riverdale, The Westside, and the Hudson line not so much IMO.


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