Is Penn Station via the MNRR Hudson Line a Possibility Again?

[Union Tpke]

The connection from the Empire Connection to Penn Station would probably and should be rebuilt so that it is two tracks.

[46Dover]

I would like to see a setup off the Hudson line as such to have a total reconstruction of the Empire Connection. As such:

 

Have the two outside tracks go to Spuyten Duyvil/Grand Central and Dedicate the two inside tracks to a flyover/bridge crossing the Harlem River and replacing that ancient swing bridge in the process. Of course third rail is out of the question since Penn Station is overrunning third rail.

 

P.S. I know I'm going to be knocked upside the head with the $$$ thing, but hey, we can only dream, right?

[RailRunRob]

I would like to see a setup off the Hudson line as such to have a total reconstruction of the Empire Connection. As such:

 

Have the two outside tracks go to Spuyten Duyvil/Grand Central and Dedicate the two inside tracks to a flyover/bridge crossing the Harlem River and replacing that ancient swing bridge in the process. Of course third rail is out of the question since Penn Station is overrunning third rail.

 

P.S. I know I'm going to be knocked upside the head with the $$$ thing, but hey, we can only dream, right?

3rd rail is fine. Shouldn't have a problem with under-riding to over-riding switch over. Maybe a 100-foot gap. The shoe is spring loaded. Right before the gap raise the height of the under riding rail to the standard height of the overriding the rail shoe lifts and locks in the overriding position.  Across and done. Vice versa the other way. Under ridding pushes down and lock! 

[paulrivera]

3rd rail is fine. Shouldn't have a problem with under-riding to over-riding switch over. Maybe a 100-foot gap. The shoe is spring loaded. Right before the gap raise the height of the under riding rail to the standard height of the overriding the rail shoe lifts and locks in the overriding position.  Across and done. Vice versa the other way. Under ridding pushes down and lock! 

IINM only the M8's have the capability to draw power from both under running and over running third rail.

[46Dover]

IINM only the M8's have the capability to draw power from both under running and over running third rail.

I was going to say, I don't think the M7s have dual capabilities with third rail as the M8s. It would have to be Metro North's Genesis units with retrofitted Amtrak style 3rd rail pickup shoes for Penn Station entry

[RailRunRob]

IINM only the M8's have the capability to draw power from both under running and over running third rail.

 

 

I was going to say, I don't think the M7s have dual capabilities with third rail as the M8s. It would have to be Metro North's Genesis units with retrofitted Amtrak style 3rd rail pickup shoes for Penn Station entry

Come on guys, this is the basics, of course, I know this and of course, they don't on M7's I'm giving you the solution. Install the new shoes on some M7 cars. 

 

The M8 can run both types of third rail without the engineer having to do anything. The shoe itself sits in a set of springs and they keep the double shoe in a neutral center position. It just adjusts to whatever it's using as I stated before with the help of some transition rail. They already worked this system out and these are Kawasaki cars (M8s) so there more than likely using Schunk an engineering firm based in Germany 3rd rail collectors are kinda there thing. I've seen their work on other projects. Just retrofit a few M7 problem solved we don't have to add any complications on the cars at least. More info on the company below.

 

 

http://www.schunk-sbi.com/en/sbi/3%3Csup%3Erd%3C/sup%3E%20Rail%20Current%20Collectors/schunk01.c.63660.en

[R10 2952]

It's certainly a doable project worth evaluating, but I think some of you are severely over-analyzing it.  There's really only two constraints. 

The first is the LIRR hogging up Penn Station- that can be solved when East Side Access is completed.  You can also send a few LIRR trains to Flatbush or Long Island City Terminals- not every train from LI needs to go straight into Midtown.  Folks from Nassau and Suffolk need to learn how to use the subway.

The second is the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge.  It can support two tracks, yet only has one, creating a bottleneck.  Yet even if it had two tracks, it would still be a bottleneck due to its configuration.  That bridge really should be replaced; it's too low and it's in sorry shape- one of the pilings has been tilting at an angle for years now.

Arrange capacity at Penn Station and replace that rickety excuse for a river crossing, and it should be fine.

[Trainmaster5]

It's certainly a doable project worth evaluating, but I think some of you are severely over-analyzing it.  There's really only two constraints. 

The first is the LIRR hogging up Penn Station- that can be solved when East Side Access is completed.  You can also send a few LIRR trains to Flatbush or Long Island City Terminals- not every train from LI needs to go straight into Midtown.  Folks from Nassau and Suffolk need to learn how to use the subway.

The second is the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge.  It can support two tracks, yet only has one, creating a bottleneck.  Yet even if it had two tracks, it would still be a bottleneck due to its configuration.  That bridge really should be replaced; it's too low and it's in sorry shape- one of the pilings has been tilting at an angle for years now.

Arrange capacity at Penn Station and replace that rickety excuse for a river crossing, and it should be fine.

Except that the LIRR will only run scoot (shuttle) service between Jamaica and Flatbush once ESA is completed. NO through service from the east at all. Maybe LIC will handle some of the westbound trains???? The Jamaica track reconfiguration plans will isolate Brooklyn service from all other westbound trains arriving at the station. That's why some people want NYCT to take over operations on the Atlantic Avenue service. Carry on.

[R10 2952]

Except that the LIRR will only run scoot (shuttle) service between Jamaica and Flatbush once ESA is completed. NO through service from the east at all. Maybe LIC will handle some of the westbound trains???? The Jamaica track reconfiguration plans will isolate Brooklyn service from all other westbound trains arriving at the station. That's why some people want NYCT to take over operations on the Atlantic Avenue service. Carry on.

My concern with converting the Atlantic Branch to subway is that it too closely parallels the /  / / trains and would essentially duplicate those services.  Seeing how East Side Access won't be ready until well into the next decade, I do hope that gives the LIRR time to reconsider their choices; I feel that disconnecting the Atlantic Branch from points eastward of Jamaica Station would in many ways seal it's fate and doom the line, much like when the Culver Line was disconnected from the rest of the El at McDonald Avenue.

[bobtehpanda]

My concern with converting the Atlantic Branch to subway is that it too closely parallels the /  / / trains and would essentially duplicate those services.

 

Given that the is physically incapable of handling a proper peak express service, this might not actually be a bad thing. Right now getting from Jamaica to Atlantic Terminal via the subway is a giant PITA.

[R10 2952]

/ service east of Broadway Junction is indeed horrendously slow, but I think the biggest barrier to improvement along that line was the failure of the Transit Authority's Jamaica Avenue realignment plans in the late-1950s/early-1960s.  From what I've read, the el east of Cypress Hills is Dual Contracts and was built to handle a third track- it's the structure along Fulton Street that can't handle extra weight (amazingly, parts of it are still original from 1888).
Of the two plans the TA had, I believe the first one failed because it involved cutting diagonally across residential blocks (no idea what they were thinking with that one) and generated community opposition.  The second plan failed because a city planning commission deemed it too expensive and vetoed the proposal.
I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but I think it would be a worthwhile idea to move the Fulton part of the el to Jamaica Avenue, build the corresponding stops (get rid of Alabama and Van Siclen with a new stop at Pennsylvania Av) and add a third track east of Broadway Junction.
Building on the side of Forest Park would probably be an issue, so maybe they could just build a two-tiered, single track on the opposite side of Jamaica Avenue.  Like this:   _
                                                                        [_]
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With express stops at Sutphin-Woodhaven-Crescent-BWJ-Myrtle-Marcy, that could be enough to redistribute a handful of passengers from Queens Blvd.
I know it's a long shot and would probably not happen under the current circumstances, but it would be the better solution in my eyes- with Brooklyn Heights being destroyed "rearranged" with all that development, the LIRR might want to keep the Atlantic Branch as an option for handling crowds from Long Island.  We all know what happened to their last route that didn't operate outside of city limits...

[Trainmaster5]

My concern with converting the Atlantic Branch to subway is that it too closely parallels the /  / / trains and would essentially duplicate those services.  Seeing how East Side Access won't be ready until well into the next decade, I do hope that gives the LIRR time to reconsider their choices; I feel that disconnecting the Atlantic Branch from points eastward of Jamaica Station would in many ways seal it's fate and doom the line, much like when the Culver Line was disconnected from the rest of the El at McDonald Avenue.

Unless you know something that I don't know about It's already a done deal as far as the LIRR is concerned. It's the unwritten part of ESA and the third track proposals. Shuttle service on the Atlantic and Oyster Bay branches. Not much uproar so far because it's not widely known yet. Carry on.

[R10 2952]

Unless you know something that I don't know about It's already a done deal as far as the LIRR is concerned. It's the unwritten part of ESA and the third track proposals. Shuttle service on the Atlantic and Oyster Bay branches. Not much uproar so far because it's not widely known yet. Carry on.

Only way I know is from what I've heard here. But yes, it will be interesting to see the reaction when LI folks realize what's going on.  Seems to me like they're in for a rude awakening.

[paulrivera]

Only way I know is from what I've heard here. But yes, it will be interesting to see the reaction when LI folks realize what's going on.  Seems to me like they're in for a rude awakening.

The previous LIRR president realized what was going on in regards to ESA. She tried to fight to keep all of LIRR's existing Penn slots in addition to the new GCT service and pretty much got fired for it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Unless you know something that I don't know about It's already a done deal as far as the LIRR is concerned. It's the unwritten part of ESA and the third track proposals. Shuttle service on the Atlantic and Oyster Bay branches. Not much uproar so far because it's not widely known yet. Carry on.

What exactly is a done deal?  Are they going to do away with LIRR service to Atlantic Avenue?

[Trainmaster5]

What exactly is a done deal?  Are they going to do away with LIRR service to Atlantic Avenue?

They're not going to do away with LIRR service between Jamaica and Flatbush. They want to make service between those stations strictly a shuttle operation. Passengers traveling from the east will have to change at Jamaica for service to Atlantic/Flatbush terminal. The proposal will move all Brooklyn service to newly constructed platforms away from the other westbound trains. Supposedly the new platforms will be near the Airtrain service. Under this particular project riders from the east who want Brooklyn service or lower Manhattan will no longer have a cross platform transfer or an easy connection to continue their commute. All of this is part of the new Jamaica station rehabilitation and the combination of ESA and the Third track project from Hicksville to Floral Park. How many people are aware of the whole ramifications IDK but when/if the plan goes in effect without modification that 20 minute trip to Brooklyn from Jamaica toward the Financial District is history. The riders on the West Hempstead, Far Rockaway, and Long Beach branches would be affected the most because most of those trains run to/ from Atlantic Terminal. Carry on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They're not going to do away with LIRR service between Jamaica and Flatbush. They want to make service between those stations strictly a shuttle operation. Passengers traveling from the east will have to change at Jamaica for service to Atlantic/Flatbush terminal. The proposal will move all Brooklyn service to newly constructed platforms away from the other westbound trains. Supposedly the new platforms will be near the Airtrain service. Under this particular project riders from the east who want Brooklyn service or lower Manhattan will no longer have a cross platform transfer or an easy connection to continue their commute. All of this is part of the new Jamaica station rehabilitation and the combination of ESA and the Third track project from Hicksville to Floral Park. How many people are aware of the whole ramifications IDK but when/if the plan goes in effect without modification that 20 minute trip to Brooklyn from Jamaica toward the Financial District is history. The riders on the West Hempstead, Far Rockaway, and Long Beach branches would be affected the most because most of those trains run to/ from Atlantic Terminal. Carry on.

And what exactly is the benefit for the LIRR?  If I were a passenger, I'd be incensed for what they charge to have to transfer, meaning a longer commute.

[bobtehpanda]

And what exactly is the benefit for the LIRR?  If I were a passenger, I'd be incensed for what they charge to have to transfer, meaning a longer commute.

 

If the LIRR is to be believed, disconnecting the Atlantic Branch will reduce the amount of switches that need to operate, thus speeding up the slow crawls into and out of Jamaica Station. Something like a 40% capacity increase number was thrown around.

 

(Granted, this is contingent on the MTA doing things like the Third Track to also increase capacity, yet Long Islanders are so NIMBY and short-sighted that they don't realize that the Third Track they're protesting is the only way to realize service gains from the $10B hole they asked the MTA to dig under Grand Central, or the only way to get rid of those grade crossings that block their intersections for 40 minutes out of the hour.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If the LIRR is to be believed, disconnecting the Atlantic Branch will reduce the amount of switches that need to operate, thus speeding up the slow crawls into and out of Jamaica Station. Something like a 40% capacity increase number was thrown around.

 

(Granted, this is contingent on the MTA doing things like the Third Track to also increase capacity, yet Long Islanders are so NIMBY and short-sighted that they don't realize that the Third Track they're protesting is the only way to realize service gains from the $10B hole they asked the MTA to dig under Grand Central, or the only way to get rid of those grade crossings that block their intersections for 40 minutes out of the hour.)

I don't blame them.  The has a history of not being trusted, and there should be a thorough study that shows what exactly would happen should a third track be completed.

[RR503]

Third Track will happen. God -- I mean Cuomo -- wants it.

 

Also I call total BS on that capacity bump. There will still be the plethora of crossovers that allow universal track access along with the ones into/out of the various yards.

 

And if it is true, just build a flyover...

[R10 2952]

@RR: Exactly.  The MTA is playing the "alternative facts" card here...

[bobtehpanda]

Third Track will happen. God -- I mean Cuomo -- wants it.

 

Also I call total BS on that capacity bump. There will still be the plethora of crossovers that allow universal track access along with the ones into/out of the various yards.

 

And if it is true, just build a flyover...

 

The Third Track will happen, but it's gonna be a really dumb implementation of the Third Track that will probably lead to half of it being redone twenty years in the future.

 

Really the LIRR just wants to build its fancy new station in Grand Central, when they could've just improved Hunterspoint Av as a terminal. With how deep the station is, it'll take about as much time to get to street level via ESA as it would to get off the train at Hunterspoint and take the .

[Union Tpke]

It is clear that they will make the Oyster Bay Branch a shuttle. Just look at its planned track layout. Do you really think that they would have Oyster Bay trains clogging up all three tracks?

[Trainmaster5]

When I saw the track plans for Mineola station and those of Jamaica station I knew the Oyster Bay and Atlantic Branches would be relegated to shuttle operations. I don't see the Atlantic branch being turned over to the NYCT because both shuttle fleets would still have to be maintained at the Hillside facility. I'm still hoping both branches will still have through Peak direction service with any shuttle operations reserved for Off Peak and weekends. Maybe some politicians can make a difference but that would take an alliance of Nassau and NYC people willing to take a stand against the Governor and his which seems unlikely. Who knows what will eventually happen but the plan is going forward according to people in the LIRR who are in a position to know about these things and some Nassau residents. Carry on.

[R10 2952]

Knowing LI, the local representatives probably won't start making a big protest about it until after the service changes.  Unless of course Andy Boy and the remainder of his henchmen get taken down by the US Attorney's Office, at which point his pet projects would probably fall by the wayside.