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MTA, Transit Workers Union Still In Negotiations After Contract Expires


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Really well said SubwayGuy. If you work hard and do what you are supposed to, you should make a good salary and have time off that you deserve. I wonder how high the raise could be is they lowered the pay for the high-ranking officials in the MTA, or if the members of the City Council contributed more money to the MTA instead of paying themselves. Transit workers work really hard, have long and weird hours, and get respected by almost nobody. There should really be a campaign in the subway for the appreciation of those who actually get the city moving. I have heard people on trains being really mad at the T/O and/or C/O when it is not their fault. I hope that you guys get the raise you deserve.

The "high ranking officers" in the MTA make peanuts. Top person in the MTA probably makes around $300,000-$400,000 a year. I keep saying this, and it's true, but all people see is a number that looks good. The only people who get rich off the MTA are on Wall Street.

 

Yes, $300-400K sounds like a lot, but it's really not. You have lawyers getting hired out of grad school for entry level positions at $200K in NYC.

 

Train operator "base pay" should be around 80-85k with ample opportunties to do overtime for those that wish to. Not hovering around 72-73 while making it harder to get overtime...not by decreasing the need for it but by just manipulating the jobs so that people work the same number of hours and just get paid at straight time rate more.

Actually if the contract goes through, it will be thousands for those who commute with the LIRR or MNRR.  I spend a good $400.00+ a month between the express bus and Metro-North.  That is a nice savings to have.

 

As for my comments about real estate, I'm a believer of the idea that we have too much rent stabilization which limits the amount of inventory available for market rate places, thus forcing prices to go up unnecessarily, in addition to what you said about propping up the poor. Hey listen, I understand your gripes, but we all have our paths in life.  Quite frankly if one manages their money and saves accordingly, it isn't completely impossible to own a residence here.  The taxes are still reasonable as long as you can afford the maintenance if you buy a co-op or the fees associated with a condo.

 

The fact that you're aware of this situation though just proves my point about the fares.  We will reach a breaking point to where the fares are out of control.  

 

Nope, people who commute using LIRR or MNRR already got their free pass in the last contract. Next.

 

Only people getting the LIRR or MNRR pass this time around are people who live in the city who don't use it nearly as much.

 

Not that commuting via commuter RR is really a viable alternative either, unless you're talking about moving up to Wassaic or out to Montauk. Counties served by MNRR/LIRR properties have among the highest property taxes in the region. Westchester? Nassau? Fugheddaboutit.

 

As for real estate, rent regulation isn't the problem. Has never been. The problem is the removal of rent regulation combined with subsidizing housing (which is different than rent regulation). Giving a developer a tax break to build a luxury building, with the stipulation that 5% of rentals be affordable, is forcing the taxpayers to fund someone living above their means, and using taxpayer funds to guarantee return on investment for the developer. The rental guidelines they use are absurd for determining what is affordable. For what I make, NYC's guidelines deem it "affordable" for me to be paying more than 50% more than I am. Couldn't ever afford that. I made perfect decisions in life and understand money, so I'll be OK with the 2.5% raise but I am not OK with the givebacks that affect my quality of life. But that said, I can still sit from a place of privilege and understand that my coworkers don't have my situation and that this raise is a slap in the face coming off the prosperity of the market rally and the rise in incomes in NYC coming out of the recession...especially after we already "took one for the team" during lean times in the last contract. All the while Wall Street has a pipeline running at capacity from the TA's money room to their wallets.

 

When people realize that ALL working people are being shafted and stop fighting over scraps (OMG! $3 instead of $2.75!!! It's my train operator's fault!!) - never mind that fare increase was budgeted years ago - then maybe it will change. But 'till then, everyone will continue to be stupid and wave their pom poms around at elections that don't really matter every 4 years and we'll stay in the same spot, only slightly worse each time cuz inflation

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The "high ranking officers" in the MTA make peanuts. Top person in the MTA probably makes around $300,000-$400,000 a year. I keep saying this, and it's true, but all people see is a number that looks good. The only people who get rich off the MTA are on Wall Street.

 

Yes, $300-400K sounds like a lot, but it's really not. You have lawyers getting hired out of grad school for entry level positions at $200K in NYC.

 

Train operator "base pay" should be around 80-85k with ample opportunties to do overtime for those that wish to. Not hovering around 72-73 while making it harder to get overtime...not by decreasing the need for it but by just manipulating the jobs so that people work the same number of hours and just get paid at straight time rate more.

 

Nope, people who commute using LIRR or MNRR already got their free pass in the last contract. Next.

 

Only people getting the LIRR or MNRR pass this time around are people who live in the city who don't use it nearly as much.

 

Not that commuting via commuter RR is really a viable alternative either, unless you're talking about moving up to Wassaic or out to Montauk. Counties served by MNRR/LIRR properties have among the highest property taxes in the region. Westchester? Nassau? Fugheddaboutit.

 

As for real estate, rent regulation isn't the problem. Has never been. The problem is the removal of rent regulation combined with subsidizing housing (which is different than rent regulation). Giving a developer a tax break to build a luxury building, with the stipulation that 5% of rentals be affordable, is forcing the taxpayers to fund someone living above their means, and using taxpayer funds to guarantee return on investment for the developer. The rental guidelines they use are absurd for determining what is affordable. For what I make, NYC's guidelines deem it "affordable" for me to be paying more than 50% more than I am. Couldn't ever afford that. I made perfect decisions in life and understand money, so I'll be OK with the 2.5% raise but I am not OK with the givebacks that affect my quality of life. But that said, I can still sit from a place of privilege and understand that my coworkers don't have my situation and that this raise is a slap in the face coming off the prosperity of the market rally and the rise in incomes in NYC coming out of the recession...especially after we already "took one for the team" during lean times in the last contract. All the while Wall Street has a pipeline running at capacity from the TA's money room to their wallets.

 

When people realize that ALL working people are being shafted and stop fighting over scraps (OMG! $3 instead of $2.75!!! It's my train operator's fault!!) - never mind that fare increase was budgeted years ago - then maybe it will change. But 'till then, everyone will continue to be stupid and wave their pom poms around at elections that don't really matter every 4 years and we'll stay in the same spot, only slightly worse each time cuz inflation

 

Nope, people who commute using LIRR or MNRR already got their free pass in the last contract. Next.

 

Only people getting the LIRR or MNRR pass this time around are people who live in the city who don't use it nearly as much.

 

Not that commuting via commuter RR is really a viable alternative either, unless you're talking about moving up to Wassaic or out to Montauk. Counties served by MNRR/LIRR properties have among the highest property taxes in the region. Westchester? Nassau? Fugheddaboutit.

 

As for real estate, rent regulation isn't the problem. Has never been. The problem is the removal of rent regulation combined with subsidizing housing (which is different than rent regulation). Giving a developer a tax break to build a luxury building, with the stipulation that 5% of rentals be affordable, is forcing the taxpayers to fund someone living above their means, and using taxpayer funds to guarantee return on investment for the developer. The rental guidelines they use are absurd for determining what is affordable. For what I make, NYC's guidelines deem it "affordable" for me to be paying more than 50% more than I am. Couldn't ever afford that. I made perfect decisions in life and understand money, so I'll be OK with the 2.5% raise but I am not OK with the givebacks that affect my quality of life. But that said, I can still sit from a place of privilege and understand that my coworkers don't have my situation and that this raise is a slap in the face coming off the prosperity of the market rally and the rise in incomes in NYC coming out of the recession...especially after we already "took one for the team" during lean times in the last contract. All the while Wall Street has a pipeline running at capacity from the TA's money room to their wallets.

 

When people realize that ALL working people are being shafted and stop fighting over scraps (OMG! $3 instead of $2.75!!! It's my train operator's fault!!) - never mind that fare increase was budgeted years ago - then maybe it will change. But 'till then, everyone will continue to be stupid and wave their pom poms around at elections that don't really matter every 4 years and we'll stay in the same spot, only slightly worse each time cuz inflation

We'll have to agree to disagree on rent stabilization and how it artificially inflates prices.  I also think you're wrong about Wall Street.  Wall Street has seen profits wages and bonuses trend downward in 2015 and 2016, part of an ongoing decline. Don't make Wall Street the culprit.  Blame the politicians who have put EVERYTHING into Wall Street being the main economic engine of this city... That along with tourism and the new tech and movie sector that continues to expand.  Outside of that not much else here aside from the service sector, with TONS of low paying jobs.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/17/hard-times-on-wall-street-as-pay-cuts-layoffs-loom.html

 

http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/mar16/030716.htm

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The raise was a fair one IMO, and if you include the other perks you received, it's fair.  I mean I must say if everyone could yell that they deserve a raise just because of inflation, well we would all have bloated salaries.  That doesn't justify a raise IMO.  What justifies a raise is how is the service that we the passengers are receiving.  I'm not necessarily sold that just because millions of people are moved everyday that automatically means that service is great overall.  When I see how infrequently I use the subway and how often it is delayed, that's a testament of what is wrong with our transit system. There hasn't been one week yet where I haven't encountered a delayed train in the last month of so that I've been riding the train, and I only use it 3 - 4 times a week max.  First time using it this week was yesterday and of course there were delays... 

 

I think raises should be tied in to productivity to some capacity and not just how well the (MTA) is doing financially.  That's how just about everyone else is rated in the workforce.

 

 

Ok.... Im gonna go on  Rant as a annoyed Train operator real quick and I'm gonna defend my co workers here...

you say

"What justifies a raise is how is the service that we the passengers are receiving.  I'm not necessarily sold that just because millions of people are moved everyday that automatically means that service is great overall.  When I see how infrequently I use the subway and how often it is delayed, that's a testament of what is wrong with our transit system."

 

The Reality of it is, THE PASSENGERS ARE A HEAVY RESON WHY TRAIN SERVICE IS DELAYED!

Let me explain this!!.. My Trip On The (1) Train During AM Rush doing south, By Time i got to 231st i have a HEAVY LOAD AND I LEFT VC ON TIME!!!

AT Dyckman i was delayed about 3 minutes because of passengers holding the doors. 181 st Station is packed, train is packed, People are still holding the doors trying to squeeze in. This Goes on all they way down to 96 st Until RCC finally tell me Run Express on the Local because I'm 20 minutes late! And people still holding the doors! One passenger asked me why I'm late and as the door is TRYING to close people holding the doors again and i reply. Thats why Pointing to the passengers holding the doors saying that happens at every stop. thats why we get delayed!

Or How about Sick passengers getting on the train? Or my favorite.. the 12-12. The Disorderly Customer!

The reality of it is, There are enough trains on the road.. Passengers 75% of the time are the reasons for delays and trains taken out of service!

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Wages are hourlies. Salaried employees have been making more than ever. Transit workers are increasingly getting priced out of the city, which is why so many are moving way upstate, to NJ, far out LI, or PA.

 

What do you think the impact of this is? Sure, they save on housing, but now have to contend with long commutes to work and contribute to traffic commuting which affects everyone. But I guess they should just bike in from those locations right? I guess they should just be grateful to have a job at all when there is catastrophic traffic like the lardass from NJ created on the GW bridge and they are sent home without pay and written up for the day for being AWOL or late due to something they had no control over. As they are cautiously reminded that, "this is why Transit gives you a pass", as they're also fined or suspended without pay for the same infraction.

 

The cost of living isn't actually that much less living in those places when you figure mileage on vehicles, gas, and tolls, which Transit workers still don't get a break from, btw, including tolls on MTA bridges and tunnels. So now you want everyone - including Transit workers who live in NYC, have mortgages, and pay rent - to take another hit?

 

The fact that wages have been stagnant nationwide is why this economic "recovery" has felt so incomplete. The numbers look good (or are made to look good) but working people are just as behind as ever. The difference is #1-in New York all of the cost of living and inflation numbers are higher than nationwide and #2-wage numbers can be made to look good in NY the more working people move out and are displaced by rich carpetbaggers paying above market rates. In case you haven't noticed, people are leaving this city in droves.

 

I am tired of "poor people" being generally used as a straw man against working class people. I am tired of having things promised to me that are then repurposed to help people worse off than me enjoy a higher standard of living. I am tired of being lied to. I am tired of being asked to sacrifice for the good of the team, but no one ever gives a damn penny to help me get a better standard of living. I am tired of constantly being subjected to high tax rates because my income is too high, but people who make more than me pay less in taxes, and every time I try to figure out ways to reduce my tax burden, I am told that I must spend more, only to then save a fraction of that in taxes.

 

And I am tired of busting my ass, giving up countless hours, days, weeks, months, and years with friends and family working a job that is physically and mentally demanding, but rewarding, that most people don't possess the stamina, attentiveness, willingness to put up with commuting and odd hours to do, and being told by these same a**holes that are off celebrating holidays while making more than me to do a job that is less systemically critical to the region while I am working, that I am "overpaid" for my sacrifice, just like I am told the same thing by someone who is paid to write spin articles for a newspaper (talk about useless jobs). And I am tired of sucking it up while everyone arounds me profits, because apparently despite the fact that 20% of the MTA's budget is allocated for debt service to pay off Wall Street, it's my fault the budget doesn't ever balance (and never was intended to!). Despite the fact that front line employees have no say in planning or in reducing commutation delays which has to do with the complete and utter failure of government to plan for the future, it's my fault the lines are running over capacity, that someone held the doors, or that there's no Third Avenue El in the Bronx. All because a bunch of peasants who still foolishly think that $70K as a base pay is a lot of money in the richest city on earth (hint: it isn't), I'm supposed to sacrifice my standard of living to JOIN the poor in a lottery for a housing project, because they make $30K a year, and that "i'd be a great team player" for doing that. All that, so any TA employee that wins a housing lottery, can be charged more money to live in the same shithole as the person next door with no job and 7 kids paying the bills with alimony and child support at a fraction of the cost. And if the TA employee works overtime and reaches the upper limit of the income threshold, they "make too much" and must pay a market rent somewhere else.

 

This is the reality for many TA employees. I don't know where the f**k this notion ever came from that anyone who works 40 hours a week should be content to be poor forever, but it sucks. And while the peasants making 30K and the indentured servants making 70K quibble over a thousand dollars, no one seems to give a shit about the millionaires and billionaires boarding themselves up in private communities, away from the populace, legally bribing politicians and changing laws to benefit them even further, and even trying to rig the game for their kids in the next generation. No, all they care about is the thousand dollars that won't even stay in their pockets long enough for them to count.

 

I don't see the ultra rich making ANY sacrifices, so f**k that. If we're gonna talk sacrifices, the group that GAINED the most from this rigged system needs to be the first to give back. NOT ME.

 

PERFECT

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Ok.... Im gonna go on  Rant as a annoyed Train operator real quick and I'm gonna defend my co workers here...

you say

"What justifies a raise is how is the service that we the passengers are receiving.  I'm not necessarily sold that just because millions of people are moved everyday that automatically means that service is great overall.  When I see how infrequently I use the subway and how often it is delayed, that's a testament of what is wrong with our transit system."

 

The Reality of it is, THE PASSENGERS ARE A HEAVY RESON WHY TRAIN SERVICE IS DELAYED!

Let me explain this!!.. My Trip On The (1) Train During AM Rush doing south, By Time i got to 231st i have a HEAVY LOAD AND I LEFT VC ON TIME!!!

AT Dyckman i was delayed about 3 minutes because of passengers holding the doors. 181 st Station is packed, train is packed, People are still holding the doors trying to squeeze in. This Goes on all they way down to 96 st Until RCC finally tell me Run Express on the Local because I'm 20 minutes late! And people still holding the doors! One passenger asked me why I'm late and as the door is TRYING to close people holding the doors again and i reply. Thats why Pointing to the passengers holding the doors saying that happens at every stop. thats why we get delayed!

Or How about Sick passengers getting on the train? Or my favorite.. the 12-12. The Disorderly Customer!

The reality of it is, There are enough trains on the road.. Passengers 75% of the time are the reasons for delays and trains taken out of service!

I won't disagree with you on that one, but I think part of the issue is that train service has become so erratic and overcrowded that folks don't feel safe waiting for the next train.  The (1) generally runs well out of the rest of the lines, but it too has times when it is delayed. The headways are not necessarily consistent in the morning, and there is one train that I know for a fact that many people try to get because it comes right behind another train that starts up at 137th street.  You're well aware of the fact that some (1) trains become so crowded that passengers are left on the platform by the time the train travels below 116th street, which is not a result of people always holding the doors, but rather not enough capacity.  I noticed this quickly the few times that I opted for the (1) train in the mornings and would make sure I caught the same train to avoid the sardine can crowds.  The (1) should have more trains starting at 137th street to act as a buffer against the crowds further south. Quite frankly it would be even better to have more trains starting at 145th because once you hit 157th, that's where the trains usually start to fill in, but because of the track layout I imagine 137th is easier.

 

They have added service, but what is clearly happening is that more people are using the (1) train, due to a number of factors.  Gentrification is definitely one of them as seen by the crowds that get on from 157th down, along with bus service being poor.  I know for a fact that more people from my neighborhood are opting for the (1) train in the mornings that used other options previously, which means fuller cars further north than before.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on rent stabilization and how it artificially inflates prices. I also think you're wrong about Wall Street. Wall Street has seen profits wages and bonuses trend downward in 2015 and 2016, part of an ongoing decline. Don't make Wall Street the culprit. Blame the politicians who have put EVERYTHING into Wall Street being the main economic engine of this city... That along with tourism and the new tech and movie sector that continues to expand. Outside of that not much else here aside from the service sector, with TONS of low paying jobs.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/17/hard-times-on-wall-street-as-pay-cuts-layoffs-loom.html

 

http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/mar16/030716.htm

That's not really a "problem." Industries rise and fall with the times as technologies change and consumers want different things. No one wept for the weavers put out of business in the 1900s, or the elevator operators and telephone operators put out of business later on.

 

Manufacturing jobs are plain and simple not coming back; robots are cheaper than people, and New York is a crap place to have a factory. Land is too expensive, required wages are too high (because rent is too expensive), and the location of New York means that it's a PITA to ship anything off the Island or out of the five boroughs.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That's not really a "problem." Industries rise and fall with the times as technologies change and consumers want different things. No one wept for the weavers put out of business in the 1900s, or the elevator operators and telephone operators put out of business later on.

 

Manufacturing jobs are plain and simple not coming back; robots are cheaper than people, and New York is a crap place to have a factory. Land is too expensive, required wages are too high (because rent is too expensive), and the location of New York means that it's a PITA to ship anything off the Island or out of the five boroughs.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uh excuse me, but the people left jobless when the factories like Domino's closed, sure as hell wept.  I can go on to name other companies that closed down and left folks unemployed, but the point has been made.  Our local officials have been pushing out manufacturing for quite some time to gentrify the city, and so this is what we have.  A New York that is becoming more expensive than ever, with tons of low paying service jobs.  

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Uh excuse me, but the people left jobless when the factories like Domino's closed, sure as hell wept.  I can go on to name other companies that closed down and left folks unemployed, but the point has been made.  Our local officials have been pushing out manufacturing for quite some time to gentrify the city, and so this is what we have.  A New York that is becoming more expensive than ever, with tons of low paying service jobs.  

 

This narrative of automation displaying jobs is playing out worldwide. "Socialist" countries in Europe are already experimenting with things like universal basic incomes so that everyone can reap the benefits of technology to enjoy a more leisurely lifestyle. While I'm not suggesting that as a solution, America's "solution" which has been the exact opposite - winner take all and leave the rest behind - is not the way to go either.

 

And unlike bobthepanda seems to think, it's a huge...er, YUUUGE, problem.

I won't disagree with you on that one, but I think part of the issue is that train service has become so erratic and overcrowded that folks don't feel safe waiting for the next train.  The (1) generally runs well out of the rest of the lines, but it too has times when it is delayed. The headways are not necessarily consistent in the morning, and there is one train that I know for a fact that many people try to get because it comes right behind another train that starts up at 137th street.  You're well aware of the fact that some (1) trains become so crowded that passengers are left on the platform by the time the train travels below 116th street, which is not a result of people always holding the doors, but rather not enough capacity.  I noticed this quickly the few times that I opted for the (1) train in the mornings and would make sure I caught the same train to avoid the sardine can crowds.  The (1) should have more trains starting at 137th street to act as a buffer against the crowds further south. Quite frankly it would be even better to have more trains starting at 145th because once you hit 157th, that's where the trains usually start to fill in, but because of the track layout I imagine 137th is easier.

 

They have added service, but what is clearly happening is that more people are using the (1) train, due to a number of factors.  Gentrification is definitely one of them as seen by the crowds that get on from 157th down, along with bus service being poor.  I know for a fact that more people from my neighborhood are opting for the (1) train in the mornings that used other options previously, which means fuller cars further north than before.

 

That's why I blame politicians. A politician that had a clue would have had the foresight to provide for system expansion so that there would be less of a crunch. Even with the best technology in the world, you can still only run so many trains safely. You either need to add capacity or downsize population density, two things that this city has been loath to do. Oh but here we need another high rise or more retail....

We'll have to agree to disagree on rent stabilization and how it artificially inflates prices.  I also think you're wrong about Wall Street.  Wall Street has seen profits wages and bonuses trend downward in 2015 and 2016, part of an ongoing decline. Don't make Wall Street the culprit.  Blame the politicians who have put EVERYTHING into Wall Street being the main economic engine of this city... That along with tourism and the new tech and movie sector that continues to expand.  Outside of that not much else here aside from the service sector, with TONS of low paying jobs.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/17/hard-times-on-wall-street-as-pay-cuts-layoffs-loom.html

 

http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/mar16/030716.htm

 

This is from 2013:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/realestate/what-is-middle-class-in-manhattan.html

 

Median income for a family of 4 has gone up to 90K in NYC. That's city wide. That includes all of the poorest communities in eastern Brooklyn, Staten Island, the south east Bronx, and Jamaica.

 

The numbers keep going up and up. Also, Wall Street bonuses have actually grown for equity traders. Those numbers are heavily weighted down by cuts to fixed income trading desks, which haven't really done a whole lot since the recession due to the Federal Reserve's low interest rate policy. And the companies have been forced by Dodd-Frank regulations to hold more of their cash in reserves as collateral against another major market event, which has affected it somewhat, but the banks have generally done extremely well the past 6 years. Meanwhile the compensation of lawyers, doctors, academics, tech employees, and other high end "service" jobs in NYC has gone up significantly, as has rent. But the pay for working people has not caught up. And rent continues to spike out of control as more and more apartments are de-regulated, and foreigners are allowed to snap up all the valuable land in NYC as investment property and charge so-called "market rates" for housing that are way out of line with everywhere else in the country outside of San Francisco.

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This narrative of automation displaying jobs is playing out worldwide. "Socialist" countries in Europe are already experimenting with things like universal basic incomes so that everyone can reap the benefits of technology to enjoy a more leisurely lifestyle. While I'm not suggesting that as a solution, America's "solution" which has been the exact opposite - winner take all and leave the rest behind - is not the way to go either.

 

And unlike bobthepanda seems to think, it's a huge...er, YUUUGE, problem.

 

Automation is a huge problem, and I'm not saying that that itself is not. Wall Street and knowledge jobs being prioritized by the City is not, and it certainly didn't cause the manufacturing to leave. Wall Street may be coddled by the city, but the notion that the city is trying to coddle anyone else, particularly technology, is a laughable insinuation, given how public the City's fights with technology companies are. Unless we threw billions of dollars at manufacturing it was never going to stay; even without competition from other countries it's just cheaper to move production to the South, or to the western and northern suburbs if you have to keep it in the region, because of how costly rent, wages, and freight transport are here. It's like how we don't have a container port, because Newark is, from industry's point of view, a much more logical place to have a port than Manhattan or Brooklyn, where the docks were closed. Even if those factories had stayed open or came back, they'd probably be mostly robots now.

 

(Automation is a huge problem socially, if you believe that we should always use the model of the capitalist "Protestant work ethic" to drive our economy, but that's another debate for another time.)

 

Uh excuse me, but the people left jobless when the factories like Domino's closed, sure as hell wept.  I can go on to name other companies that closed down and left folks unemployed, but the point has been made.  Our local officials have been pushing out manufacturing for quite some time to gentrify the city, and so this is what we have.  A New York that is becoming more expensive than ever, with tons of low paying service jobs.  

 

The carriage drivers may have wept when the car became king, but I'm sure auto mechanics were pretty happy. Every technological development destroys jobs, but it also creates higher-wage, higher-skilled jobs since technology does not maintain itself, and technology itself enables higher productivity; there are now more bank branch employees employed in the United States than before the ATM because it became cheaper to open bank branches, for instance. If you think whatever factory replaced the Domino Sugar one in a foreign country employs the same or more employees to produce the same amount of sugar, you're wrong.

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Don't make Wall Street the culprit.  Blame the politicians who have put EVERYTHING into Wall Street being the main economic engine of this city... That along with tourism and the new tech and movie sector that continues to expand.  Outside of that not much else here aside from the service sector, with TONS of low paying jobs.

 

This doesn't even remotely make sense. The bifurcation of the modern economy into service labor on low-end and high-end levels was a natural consequence of automation, globalization, and the modernization of the economy in the years of suburbanization America. Global cities driven by tourism and technology jobs are a product of the year we live in. The 'movie sector' is irrelevant. Politicians have not put 'everything' into Wall Street by any means. In fact, even the lame forces of regulation that act upon Wall Street in even the lightest of ways to curb their unfettered greed and violent desire of wealth have been consistently met with resistance whenever the government has tried to enact them. Corporate lobbyists and campaign donations have meant that few politicians, if any, have the guts or the means to stand up to Wall Street. The depth of this misinformation knows no bounds. It is the complete opposite of the scenario you have considered. 

 

If you truly oppose the power of the banks so vehemently, I suppose you will be working every day for the next four years to get Donald Trump, the single greatest friend to Goldman Sachs in the history of the U.S. Presidency, out of office. He has alreadt made six high-level hires of Goldman employees both within the White House (personal advisors) and in the larger government (the new treasury secretary). I assume that you, like me, am appalled by that. He has, as you put it, 'put EVERYTHING into Wall Street' and has made Wall Street more powerful than ever before. The 'swamp' has never been more full. I'm sure that you, like me and many other working Americans, are horrified by that.

 

Or not. 

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This doesn't even remotely make sense. The bifurcation of the modern economy into service labor on low-end and high-end levels was a natural consequence of automation, globalization, and the modernization of the economy in the years of suburbanization America. Global cities driven by tourism and technology jobs are a product of the year we live in. The 'movie sector' is irrelevant. Politicians have not put 'everything' into Wall Street by any means. In fact, even the lame forces of regulation that act upon Wall Street in even the lightest of ways to curb their unfettered greed and violent desire of wealth have been consistently met with resistance whenever the government has tried to enact them. Corporate lobbyists and campaign donations have meant that few politicians, if any, have the guts or the means to stand up to Wall Street. The depth of this misinformation knows no bounds. It is the complete opposite of the scenario you have considered.

 

If you truly oppose the power of the banks so vehemently, I suppose you will be working every day for the next four years to get Donald Trump, the single greatest friend to Goldman Sachs in the history of the U.S. Presidency, out of office. He has alreadt made six high-level hires of Goldman employees both within the White House (personal advisors) and in the larger government (the new treasury secretary). I assume that you, like me, am appalled by that. He has, as you put it, 'put EVERYTHING into Wall Street' and has made Wall Street more powerful than ever before. The 'swamp' has never been more full. I'm sure that you, like me and many other working Americans, are horrified by that.

 

Or not.

 

You clearly misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with the banks. I have a problem with our local economy not being diversified enough that we've become so dependent upon them. Globalization isn't working for the U.S. which is why I support Trump's protectionist stance (as a proud protectionist myself). We can look at Germany as a example of how manufacturing can turn around the economy. They've drastically reduced social welfare programs and have people working in GOOD paying jobs, meaning more tax revenue available for other things. Their banks are a mess right now because Europe as a whole is struggling through a recssion, but manufacturing has kept Germany on strong footing. They have invested in technology, as they understand that manufacturing will change, but it is still needed. We have to invest in technology here so that we continue to be a leader instead of outsourcing everything. We won't bring back all manufacturing jobs and it's foolish to think so, but we can invest in our infrastructure (something we've failed to do) and other things to keep our economy thriving.

 

NYC has always been the financial capital, so it would be preposterous to go after banks which provide a good amount of high paying jobs. We need a more diverse economy here that will bring more higher paying jobs. Trump will hopefully urge Congress and push for tax reform, tax simplification, tax reductions and less regulation. The Democrats are KILLING businesses with over regulation and taxes. That has to change. More money in the pockets of Americans will mean more spending and moves to punish outsourcing will mean the money stays here to buy American goods made by Americans, and before you complain, the Chinese are the biggest protectionists around. It's time for America to put our country first.

 

Additionally, how can you say that the movie industry is irrevelant? New York City has been rolling over backwards for them for years with tax incentives and the like. You see you have to replace those lost manufacturing jobs with something to generate tax revenues.

 

More importantly, tax reforms should help people like (MTA) workers so that they see more of their money.

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Automation is a huge problem, and I'm not saying that that itself is not. Wall Street and knowledge jobs being prioritized by the City is not, and it certainly didn't cause the manufacturing to leave. Wall Street may be coddled by the city, but the notion that the city is trying to coddle anyone else, particularly technology, is a laughable insinuation, given how public the City's fights with technology companies are. Unless we threw billions of dollars at manufacturing it was never going to stay; even without competition from other countries it's just cheaper to move production to the South, or to the western and northern suburbs if you have to keep it in the region, because of how costly rent, wages, and freight transport are here. It's like how we don't have a container port, because Newark is, from industry's point of view, a much more logical place to have a port than Manhattan or Brooklyn, where the docks were closed. Even if those factories had stayed open or came back, they'd probably be mostly robots now.

 

(Automation is a huge problem socially, if you believe that we should always use the model of the capitalist "Protestant work ethic" to drive our economy, but that's another debate for another time.)

 

 

 

The carriage drivers may have wept when the car became king, but I'm sure auto mechanics were pretty happy. Every technological development destroys jobs, but it also creates higher-wage, higher-skilled jobs since technology does not maintain itself, and technology itself enables higher productivity; there are now more bank branch employees employed in the United States than before the ATM because it became cheaper to open bank branches, for instance. If you think whatever factory replaced the Domino Sugar one in a foreign country employs the same or more employees to produce the same amount of sugar, you're wrong.

I elaborated on your points on manufacturing in my response to MVH. The issue is we aren't moving manufacturing anywhere but overseas and that has to be remedied. Multinational companies see HUGE tax breaks and they are the main benefitters of trade agreements such as NAFTA. Moving manufacturing and replacing those jobs with something that pays as well is the problem. We already see how many low-paying service jobs are "helping" this city.
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The carriage drivers may have wept when the car became king, but I'm sure auto mechanics were pretty happy. Every technological development destroys jobs, but it also creates higher-wage, higher-skilled jobs since technology does not maintain itself, and technology itself enables higher productivity; there are now more bank branch employees employed in the United States than before the ATM because it became cheaper to open bank branches, for instance. If you think whatever factory replaced the Domino Sugar one in a foreign country employs the same or more employees to produce the same amount of sugar, you're wrong.

But you're missing the point. It creates "higher wage jobs" but it creates FAR FEWER OF THEM. This either places more people into poverty that can increase crime rates, OR forces the government to step in with assistance programs and subsidies that serve as a net drag on the economy when people who are working full time, or who'd rather be working full time, CANNOT PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

 

And I don't give a damn how many jobs technology creates overseas, the point is talking about HERE.

 

Businesses had a choice to invest in their people, or invest in technology and reap the rewards in the board room and it's clear what they chose. Most businesses today state profit as their number one goal instead of quality. But the mantra always used to be if you provided quality, you got a well deserved profit. Now you have things like planned obsolescence, intentional incompatibility to force you buy adapters on technology, etc. because PROFIT is more important than QUALITY.

 

The benefits of technology have almost exclusively gone to the top 1% economically (and no I'm not talking about some retard who's just so thrilled they can BUY a smartphone for $600 that costs less than $200 to make).

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This doesn't even remotely make sense. The bifurcation of the modern economy into service labor on low-end and high-end levels was a natural consequence of automation, globalization, and the modernization of the economy in the years of suburbanization America. Global cities driven by tourism and technology jobs are a product of the year we live in. The 'movie sector' is irrelevant. Politicians have not put 'everything' into Wall Street by any means. In fact, even the lame forces of regulation that act upon Wall Street in even the lightest of ways to curb their unfettered greed and violent desire of wealth have been consistently met with resistance whenever the government has tried to enact them. Corporate lobbyists and campaign donations have meant that few politicians, if any, have the guts or the means to stand up to Wall Street. The depth of this misinformation knows no bounds. It is the complete opposite of the scenario you have considered. 

 

If you truly oppose the power of the banks so vehemently, I suppose you will be working every day for the next four years to get Donald Trump, the single greatest friend to Goldman Sachs in the history of the U.S. Presidency, out of office. He has alreadt made six high-level hires of Goldman employees both within the White House (personal advisors) and in the larger government (the new treasury secretary). I assume that you, like me, am appalled by that. He has, as you put it, 'put EVERYTHING into Wall Street' and has made Wall Street more powerful than ever before. The 'swamp' has never been more full. I'm sure that you, like me and many other working Americans, are horrified by that.

 

Or not. 

 

What's lost in your statement is just what an industry that lobbying and advertising have become. Advertising is absolutely everywhere. It's on radio, it's on TV, it's all over the internet. You can't even sit down and watch a TV show on ABC or NBC and not have them bombard you with ads. No problem, use an ad blocker, some smart people said...well now you can't even do that because these companies are invested in technology to detect ad blocking and disable content. Why? Because they want to make a little more money. Meanwhile government is asleep at the switch, because in the context of the internet, these ads are intrusive. They can install files on YOUR personal property (your computer or phone). Couldn't just stick a banner ad in the corner that costs the advertiser a cent or two that can be easily ignored...no, they MUST hold you captive to sit through a 30 second ad for some BS you don't need. Or how they force you to sit through ads to get a captcha code that is contained within the ad, just to continue using the site you are using. All because they think you can be "tricked" through subliminal messaging and repetition, into buying whatever crappy product their sponsors are pushing. Which actually serves to have the opposite effect on me personally - I simply refuse to buy these obnoxious and repetitive products.

 

This, despite the fact the average American is sick of being called and harassed, and WANTS curbs on this intrusive behavior that takes away from what little time they have left for leisure, and creates serious privacy concerns when this advertising "spyware" attempts to use the user's browsing history and cookies to "show more relevant" ads.

 

Every retailer or manufacturer insists on collecting data from its customers, especially at point of sale, which slows down checkout lanes, and online makes the checkout process longer. Why? So they can call or email you to BUY MORE SHIT. I'm careful to never give my info to anyone, and I have a spam email that I use for online purchases where I often have no choice. You know that box that says "YES! Send me product offers & news!"? How come you will inevitably get a promotional email EVERY TIME, in violation of their so called "privacy policy", regardless of how hard you UNCHECK that box.

 

This, despite the fact that people have unilaterally stated they don't want spam, promotional emails, or telemarketing calls. Politicians, are above reproach, of course. No matter if you are on the Do Not Call list or not, you can be called about an upcoming election.

 

Trillions of dollars are wasted in ineffective advertising every year, money that would be far better spent on the actual productive employees of a company, including those "low skill" jobs that are underpaid and often have to either work 2 jobs (taking someone else out of the workforce) or rely on government assistance of ANY kind.

 

And what about lobbying? What about the trillions of dollars spent by special interests to bribe government officials that is increasingly unchecked because of BS legislative decisions like Citizens United that the majority of Americans don't support. All so they can get policies that are more beneficial to them, but more harmful to the rest of us. And you think your $200 donation to a campaign will help sway that person and their policies in your direction??? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! But they'll take your money though, every time!

 

This is the reality of the world we live in, and it's why the middle class standard of living has gone to shit nationwide. But that's too traumatic for the special snowflakes who live in this country, and it's just easier to bury your head in sand and lies like "you can be anything you want to be" they've been told since they were little to MASK this reality...and that's what they do. That's why half this country watches an inauguration not because they want to be informed about their future, or because they want to bond with their fellow American over a national moment (regardless of who is being inaugurated), but because they want to see what f**king dress the first lady is wearing (females)...or they want to be in the know enough to get on Facebook and make memes about the inauguration after (males).

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My point is that even if that factory was kept here today (which it wouldn't be; factory jobs are moving to the South if they're staying in the US due to lower land costs and cheaper/easier transportation), we still wouldn't have the same amount manufacturing jobs. You can't force a manufacturer to keep jobs here, if they can pay for a robot that does the same thing but doesn't need breaks or a 401k. The City has no magic wand it can wave to somehow make land cheaper, or make factory workers less well paid, or make the traffic go away so that shipping by rail or truck actually works here.

 

It's like how the jobs that aren't moving to Mexico aren't actually being restored here, because they're just paying for robots instead of a Mexican factory.

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But you're missing the point. It creates "higher wage jobs" but it creates FAR FEWER OF THEM. This either places more people into poverty that can increase crime rates, OR forces the government to step in with assistance programs and subsidies that serve as a net drag on the economy when people who are working full time, or who'd rather be working full time, CANNOT PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

 

And I don't give a damn how many jobs technology creates overseas, the point is talking about HERE.

 

Businesses had a choice to invest in their people, or invest in technology and reap the rewards in the board room and it's clear what they chose. Most businesses today state profit as their number one goal instead of quality. But the mantra always used to be if you provided quality, you got a well deserved profit. Now you have things like planned obsolescence, intentional incompatibility to force you buy adapters on technology, etc. because PROFIT is more important than QUALITY.

 

The benefits of technology have almost exclusively gone to the top 1% economically (and no I'm not talking about some retard who's just so thrilled they can BUY a smartphone for $600 that costs less than $200 to make).

Exactly.  Some of the kids around here place WAAAY  too much faith in high-tech and that oxymoron known as the "free market".

 

Even Stephen Hawking, a genius of our time, has said that artificial intelligence could lead to the destruction of civilization.

 

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who supports the mindless, unrestrained technological march into oblivion is either a damn fool or a manipulative cynic openly content with the enslavement of humans by machines.

 

Of course, with all the subliminal propaganda that goes on with marketing, perhaps we're already there.  Sometimes I feel like John Carpenter's "They Live" was not just a sci-fi film, but an actual documentary LOL...

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My point is that even if that factory was kept here today (which it wouldn't be; factory jobs are moving to the South if they're staying in the US due to lower land costs and cheaper/easier transportation), we still wouldn't have the same amount manufacturing jobs. You can't force a manufacturer to keep jobs here, if they can pay for a robot that does the same thing but doesn't need breaks or a 401k. The City has no magic wand it can wave to somehow make land cheaper, or make factory workers less well paid, or make the traffic go away so that shipping by rail or truck actually works here.

 

It's like how the jobs that aren't moving to Mexico aren't actually being restored here, because they're just paying for robots instead of a Mexican factory.

 

You are completely missing the point. The point is that if manufacturing jobs moved to those areas and paid a better wage (instead of overseas), that would create more cities with good jobs which would reduce the absurd demand for a tightening supply of real estate that coincides with the extremely high cost of living in places like NYC, LA, Boston, SF, and, coming soon, Seattle and Portland.

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You are completely missing the point. The point is that if manufacturing jobs moved to those areas and paid a better wage (instead of overseas), that would create more cities with good jobs which would reduce the absurd demand for a tightening supply of real estate that coincides with the extremely high cost of living in places like NYC, LA, Boston, SF, and, coming soon, Seattle and Portland.

 

I think you and VG8 are arguing different points; VG8 is talking about manufacturing as it existed within the context of this city, not elsewhere in the country, and we were never going to keep manufacturing here even if we were a completely closed economy, because we can't legally close ourselves off from other states that have better transport connections, cheaper land, and lower wages.

 

Except manufacturing jobs do move to those areas. They're leaving the Rust Belt and North for the South, which is why all the automakers have factories in places like South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. There was also an interesting article in the Economist about how the move to greater contracting in business is overstating the loss of manufacturing jobs; as a hypothetical example, if General Motors decided to outsource its cafeteria operations to a business services provider like Sodexo, those would count as lost manufacturing jobs, because the BLS defines a job's industry by the main output of their employer, not by their job title or what they actually do.

 

The tightening of supply has nothing to do with the loss of manufacturing, and everything to do with the greater knowledge that our economy requires today; if it was because of a loss of manufacturing, then the Sunbelt would not be expanding so quickly. Making more middle income jobs that only require a high school education is not going to somehow reduce demand for lawyers, consultants, accountants, medical professionals, programmers, engineers, etc. that are part of the specialized skills that the economy of today requires. The fact of the matter is that employees, like consumers, also have living preferences, and getting in the way of them only really shoots yourself in the foot, as the rabidly anti-development laws and resulting price skyrocketing in SF shows.

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I think you and VG8 are arguing different points; VG8 is talking about manufacturing as it existed within the context of this city, not elsewhere in the country, and we were never going to keep manufacturing here even if we were a completely closed economy, because we can't legally close ourselves off from other states that have better transport connections, cheaper land, and lower wages.

 

Except manufacturing jobs do move to those areas. They're leaving the Rust Belt and North for the South, which is why all the automakers have factories in places like South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. There was also an interesting article in the Economist about how the move to greater contracting in business is overstating the loss of manufacturing jobs; as a hypothetical example, if General Motors decided to outsource its cafeteria operations to a business services provider like Sodexo, those would count as lost manufacturing jobs, because the BLS defines a job's industry by the main output of their employer, not by their job title or what they actually do.

 

The tightening of supply has nothing to do with the loss of manufacturing, and everything to do with the greater knowledge that our economy requires today; if it was because of a loss of manufacturing, then the Sunbelt would not be expanding so quickly. Making more middle income jobs that only require a high school education is not going to somehow reduce demand for lawyers, consultants, accountants, medical professionals, programmers, engineers, etc. that are part of the specialized skills that the economy of today requires. The fact of the matter is that employees, like consumers, also have living preferences, and getting in the way of them only really shoots yourself in the foot, as the rabidly anti-development laws and resulting price skyrocketing in SF shows.

 

The sunbelt is only booming because of so many retirees moving down there for tax advantages. You know, the ones that are fortunately still able to collect on their government sponsored benefits that they paid into.

 

Move to "greater contracting." Great, more window dressing. Why is a higher percentage of the workforce eligible US population OUT OF THE WORKFORCE than ever before if these "contractor" jobs are just replacing "traditional" ones? And I am not talking about the artificially manipulated "unemployment" statistic that was re-written years ago to avoid having to come to grips with the truth as this trend has taken hold and worsened.

 

You want to talk destructive? How about the 401k? Invest hard earned money that used to come with a guaranteed rate of return into an account that is subject to the machinations and manipulations of Wall Street, the full risk of which is to be borne by the employee. And instead of taking the money saved by not having to manage defined benefit pensions, or adjust the actuarial assumptions they use to calculate contribution rates, it's easier to just scrap the whole thing and leave the employee on their own. Not to worry though, we have a safety net in this country for old people, so the taxpayers can just prop grandma up until she drops dead with a barely acceptable standard of living. Kick the can down the road to the next generation. Government debt is close to half a million dollars per person. Think about that. You don't think that's a ticking time bomb?

 

People's preferences alone are not why this trend has worsened. Infrastructure is a big part too. Instead of American businesses investing in American cities, and the cities having the foresight to grow their infrastructure, they all cram into places like NYC and SF that by and large ALREADY HAVE that infrastructure, much of it dating back to 100 years ago.

 

Many of these jobs do not actually require advanced degrees. Some do, but many times, the jobs are so simple someone who limped through the coursework with a D- could be good at the job. Our education system does not prepare people for the workforce, it underestimates the importance of history to having a working, living knowledge of adult life, it does not teach financial literacy which makes each and every life timeline filled with financial landmines that most people don't understand, it does not teach the tax code, and it does not teach basic skills. Jobs increasingly require organization specific knowledge, which cannot even be gleaned from coursework. So rather than pay a decent wage, or bring on trainees, it's easier to offer crap like unpaid internships that the working class can't afford to eat as a gateway to these "higher paying tech jobs" you so gleefully boast of, that so few people can get (which is why H-1 visas are used...more "outsourcing" so to speak), or paid internships that are so hypercompetitive, the majority of qualified candidates fall out, and have to seek employment in the never-reported realm of underemployment while paying student loans at a rate predicated on a much higher salary.

 

We have stopped growth as a nation, there is no growth, only exploitation...unless you are in the top 1 / 10000 earners. Even the top 1% hasn't done well compared with them. But keep believing the lie that all this technology is so great. Keep believing that hiring one person to maintain a computer system at $100,000 / year is better than when 3 people each earning the equivalent of $60,000 / year in today's dollars to do the same job is better for the overall health of an economy.

 

This is the problem with America. The value of a civilization is ultimately dependent on how happy it makes its citizens. Not how much money it makes. Not how many businesses it spawns. Numerous studies show that money only provides happiness to a certain point, after that it doesn't.

 

The reality in America is that people are unhappy, and they are angry. Therefore, based on the bolded, underlined sentence above, America is failing. There is no justice for criminals, yet when law abiding citizens have missteps, they are punished harshly because "they have something to lose." Fraud and corruption are rampant, and people feel disenfranchised. There are fewer people participating in the workforce, and those that do participate work some of the longest hours in the developed world, giving up countless hours with friends and family, while others are unable to find employment at all and can't afford the expensive Ponzi scheme that is higher education, which only sometimes provides a quality education. Profits are through the roof but only a very small minority control them. Income inequality and wealth inequality are at third world banana republic levels, and when asked via survey, most people cannot even accurate comprehend to what extent this is true.

 

Tech replacing jobs, the lack of nationwide infrastructure, the lack of cost controls (even free market ones!) for necessities, and laws that are being re-written daily to favor "crony capitalism" are not going to reverse this trend in anyway. And people are not happy about it.

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My point is that even if that factory was kept here today (which it wouldn't be; factory jobs are moving to the South if they're staying in the US due to lower land costs and cheaper/easier transportation), we still wouldn't have the same amount manufacturing jobs. You can't force a manufacturer to keep jobs here, if they can pay for a robot that does the same thing but doesn't need breaks or a 401k. The City has no magic wand it can wave to somehow make land cheaper, or make factory workers less well paid, or make the traffic go away so that shipping by rail or truck actually works here.

 

It's like how the jobs that aren't moving to Mexico aren't actually being restored here, because they're just paying for robots instead of a Mexican factory.

You're right, you can't, but you can punish them for doing so by putting tariffs on things manufactured overseas that will then be sold here. Between the tariffs and transportation costs, it may make more sense to keep whatever jobs that do remain here. Since you clearly support our jobs being outsourced, what is your solution to stagnant wages and LOW paying jobs here? Service jobs sure as hell don't pay as well, and these multinational companies are making a killing off of American consumers with ridiculous mark-ups. You see when NAFTA, CAFTA and the like took off, Americans overall loved that... Cheap goods... Now that wages for most are stagnant, those "Made in China" iPhones aren't as cool.

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You're right, you can't, but you can punish them for doing so by putting tariffs on things manufactured overseas that will then be sold here. Between the tariffs and transportation costs, it may make more sense to keep whatever jobs that do remain here. Since you clearly support our jobs being outsourced, what is your solution to stagnant wages and LOW paying jobs here? Service jobs sure as hell don't pay as well, and these multinational companies are making a killing off of American consumers with ridiculous mark-ups. You see when NAFTA, CAFTA and the like took off, Americans overall loved that... Cheap goods... Now that wages for most are stagnant, those "Made in China" iPhones aren't as cool.

 

Simple - job retraining. This country, for whatever reason, is deciding that gutting vocational programs that push people into trades that are in high demand is a great idea and funneling people into university is the only way to go, when literally every other country is boosting vocational training, tracking lower-achievement students into the trades, and encouraging apprenticeships. The government, educational institutions, and employers need to be coordinating what is being taught so that we don't need to hire people on H1Bs because there are people with already appropriate qualifications here - job openings exist, but there's a large skills gap between those who are becoming unemployed and the jobs that are available.

 

A family friend of mine lost a job in a textile factory when she was in her late 40s, but instead of sitting on her tush and whining about how her job was taken away, she took advantage of a state retraining program, learned CAD skills and became a textile designer, with more regular hours and better pay than her old job ever had. We need to be making it easier for laid off employees to learn new skills by supporting them with education stipends as they work, expanding vocational training, and making paid apprenticeships more of a thing. Focus on making new companies that manufacture specialized products that are hard to move away or replicate, instead of trying to scramble for low-end, low-margin work like bulk steel manufacturing or shoemaking. After all, the Germans did this, and they have a trade surplus with China even though they certainly are not low-paid sweatshop workers.

 

And even if that doesn't make enough jobs, encourage entrepreneurship so that we end up making jobs for everyone. There's a market niche for everything; not every American wants to buy a crappy pair of $2 sneakers from Dollar Tree. I personally dislike hipster things, but a lot of hipster companies manufacture in Brooklyn despite high costs, because that's where their customers want to buy from and that's where they want to locate.

 

The main problem with this is that job retraining in the United States, as it exists right now, is mostly a state-level affair; New York has relatively good, accessible programs, but for some states and politicians it is in their interests to actually not have these kinds of programs, since it's their whole angle that government never works anyways, so why bother making a government program that disproves your point?

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I've actually enjoyed the last 2 or 3 pages of this topic (reminder it's (MTA) contract ) with it's various points of view. Because of my educational background and age I'm pretty much in agreement with one persons point of view but I want to throw this out there for discussion. In another thread that was active pre-election I pointed out that I had a teacher over 50 years ago who warned my class about the bad side of technology. Planned obsolescense and the downsizing of the workforce was predicted in 1963 or so. The shrinking of the computer as well as automation brought on by robotics sped up that downward spiral. I believe I used the example of an auto plant in that thread but the basic premise still stands. Auto plant with 2000+ employees is retooled  so the same amount of product is manufactured by 100+ employees plus robots. Tech sector folks are high-fiving each other, climaxing, while never giving thought to the mass of people they have just left unemployed. Shareholders applauding their profits and looking for more. Politicians stuffing their campaign coffers. Mr and Mrs Joe Blow SOL and left to fend for themselves. That's your family members or neighbors.Meanwhile GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, either build their cars in Canada, Mexico, or the lower cost Southeastern US. Dumb Americans, Democrat or Republican, fail to realize that NAFTA meant North American, CAN, USA, MEX, and blame the Mexicans for the loss of jobs. NAFTA, a Republican idea, signed by a Democratic President, championed by your elected officials of both parties. There are now six living Presidents. If all six stood up and repudiated NAFTA nothing would happen. If the just inaugurated POTUS went before the congress and espoused a form of protectionism it wouldn't be worth a glass of warm spit. Nothing would happen because Big Business is multinational in scope and they're beholden to the stockholders. Guess what ? The politicians are beholden to them too. They might throw in a sweetener like job retraining but that will never replace the job loss and resulting wage loss of those affected Americans.  BTW although that fare increase and those on the horizon may be blamed on the current (MTA) workforce perhaps you should stop and look at the big picture and the reasons behind those increases. Once again I present exhibit A, those politicians you or your parents voted for..Just my rant.  Carry on.

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I've actually enjoyed the last 2 or 3 pages of this topic (reminder it's (MTA) contract ) with it's various points of view. Because of my educational background and age I'm pretty much in agreement with one persons point of view but I want to throw this out there for discussion. In another thread that was active pre-election I pointed out that I had a teacher over 50 years ago who warned my class about the bad side of technology. Planned obsolescense and the downsizing of the workforce was predicted in 1963 or so. The shrinking of the computer as well as automation brought on by robotics sped up that downward spiral. I believe I used the example of an auto plant in that thread but the basic premise still stands. Auto plant with 2000+ employees is retooled  so the same amount of product is manufactured by 100+ employees plus robots. Tech sector folks are high-fiving each other, climaxing, while never giving thought to the mass of people they have just left unemployed. Shareholders applauding their profits and looking for more. Politicians stuffing their campaign coffers. Mr and Mrs Joe Blow SOL and left to fend for themselves. That's your family members or neighbors.Meanwhile GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, either build their cars in Canada, Mexico, or the lower cost Southeastern US. Dumb Americans, Democrat or Republican, fail to realize that NAFTA meant North American, CAN, USA, MEX, and blame the Mexicans for the loss of jobs. NAFTA, a Republican idea, signed by a Democratic President, championed by your elected officials of both parties. There are now six living Presidents. If all six stood up and repudiated NAFTA nothing would happen. If the just inaugurated POTUS went before the congress and espoused a form of protectionism it wouldn't be worth a glass of warm spit. Nothing would happen because Big Business is multinational in scope and they're beholden to the stockholders. Guess what ? The politicians are beholden to them too. They might throw in a sweetener like job retraining but that will never replace the job loss and resulting wage loss of those affected Americans.  BTW although that fare increase and those on the horizon may be blamed on the current (MTA) workforce perhaps you should stop and look at the big picture and the reasons behind those increases. Once again I present exhibit A, those politicians you or your parents voted for..Just my rant.  Carry on.

That's the beautiful thing about Trump. He isn't beholden to anyone, and he's been outspoken for years about protectionism and doing what is best for America. I want see this all play out because his message has been the same throughout, and that is America first. Republicans of late have a been all for free-trade so Trump is not a true Republican, though historically, Republicans have had some protectionist politicians.

 

One thing I want to see Trump look at is NAFTA because these multinational companies took advantage of what was supposed to be fair on paper. It was supposed to be a win-win for ALL countries involved. Instead, it's been a race to ship jobs to Mexico (and I say Mexico because it has the lowest standard of living out the three countries). Jobs aren't been shipped to Canada in the same manner.

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Simple - job retraining. This country, for whatever reason, is deciding that gutting vocational programs that push people into trades that are in high demand is a great idea and funneling people into university is the only way to go, when literally every other country is boosting vocational training, tracking lower-achievement students into the trades, and encouraging apprenticeships. The government, educational institutions, and employers need to be coordinating what is being taught so that we don't need to hire people on H1Bs because there are people with already appropriate qualifications here - job openings exist, but there's a large skills gap between those who are becoming unemployed and the jobs that are available.

 

A family friend of mine lost a job in a textile factory when she was in her late 40s, but instead of sitting on her tush and whining about how her job was taken away, she took advantage of a state retraining program, learned CAD skills and became a textile designer, with more regular hours and better pay than her old job ever had. We need to be making it easier for laid off employees to learn new skills by supporting them with education stipends as they work, expanding vocational training, and making paid apprenticeships more of a thing. Focus on making new companies that manufacture specialized products that are hard to move away or replicate, instead of trying to scramble for low-end, low-margin work like bulk steel manufacturing or shoemaking. After all, the Germans did this, and they have a trade surplus with China even though they certainly are not low-paid sweatshop workers.

 

And even if that doesn't make enough jobs, encourage entrepreneurship so that we end up making jobs for everyone. There's a market niche for everything; not every American wants to buy a crappy pair of $2 sneakers from Dollar Tree. I personally dislike hipster things, but a lot of hipster companies manufacture in Brooklyn despite high costs, because that's where their customers want to buy from and that's where they want to locate.

 

The main problem with this is that job retraining in the United States, as it exists right now, is mostly a state-level affair; New York has relatively good, accessible programs, but for some states and politicians it is in their interests to actually not have these kinds of programs, since it's their whole angle that government never works anyways, so why bother making a government program that disproves your point?

Oh yes! Job retraining! How foolish of me to forget about that. lol That's been the classic thing thrown out there everytime someone argues that we are losing too many high paying jobs. Obama thought the economy was doing so well because there was job growth each month, but the question never explored was what type of jobs were created? Clearly not as many high paying ones given how many Americans are struggling. Proponents of free-trade don't get it. When you shed millions of good paying jobs, the math NEVER adds up. You can yell retrain until the cows come home because some people won't be able to find anything to replace what they lost and that's the problem. It also discourages Americans from considering certain fields that do pay well for fear that their job will be outsourced. This is one big reason I support protectionism. I understand that free-trade is a necessary evil, but we can't stand by and be ripped off by the likes of China, a country that sure as hell uses protectionism to protect Chinese interests. We have to level the playing field for American workers and American companies so that we can compete and have good wages. An endless cycle of outsourcing just drives down wages, which is what has happened here. It's absurd to think that any country should rely on others for manufacturing. Just isn't healthy long-term and we're seeing that across the country.
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That's the beautiful thing about Trump. He isn't beholden to anyone, and he's been outspoken for years about protectionism and doing what is best for America. I want see this all play out because his message has been the same throughout, and that is America first. Republicans of late have a been all for free-trade so Trump is not a true Republican, though historically, Republicans have had some protectionist politicians.

 

One thing I want to see Trump look at is NAFTA because these multinational companies took advantage of what was supposed to be fair on paper. It was supposed to be a win-win for ALL countries involved. Instead, it's been a race to ship jobs to Mexico (and I say Mexico because it has the lowest standard of living out the three countries). Jobs aren't been shipped to Canada in the same manner.

 

Maybe he should close all his properties overseas and bring employment back here...

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