BreeddekalbL Posted March 18, 2017 Share #1 Posted March 18, 2017 Which is the Chinese CRRC http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/03/17/septa-to-pick-massachusetts-based-company-to-build-bilevel-railcars-over-hyundai-rotem-in-south-philly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted March 19, 2017 Share #2 Posted March 19, 2017 Which is the Chinese CRRC http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/03/17/septa-to-pick-massachusetts-based-company-to-build-bilevel-railcars-over-hyundai-rotem-in-south-philly They got the CTA as well. Seem's like there in the US market.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 19, 2017 Share #3 Posted March 19, 2017 Guaranteed lemons... This lowest qualified bidder rule needs to go... Plus SEPTA is rumored to have removed the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement, which after the Rotem fiasco is incredibly stupid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaTransitMan4608 Posted March 19, 2017 Share #4 Posted March 19, 2017 Which is the Chinese CRRC http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/03/17/septa-to-pick-massachusetts-based-company-to-build-bilevel-railcars-over-hyundai-rotem-in-south-philly Oh I've got a very bad feeling about this. That same feeling I had when I found out NJT chose DesignLine over MCI to replace their CNGs. We all know how that turned out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share #5 Posted March 19, 2017 well on the world subways facebook group i had a discussion with someone from Singapore who says the trains are really bad rampant breakdowns etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted March 19, 2017 They got the CTA as well. Seem's like there in the US market.. supposedly boston also and Los angeles, plus they also want to build the next order of BART cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 20, 2017 Share #7 Posted March 20, 2017 Guaranteed lemons... This lowest qualified bidder rule needs to go... Plus SEPTA is rumored to have removed the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement, which after the Rotem fiasco is incredibly stupid... OK...update... since the editing window passed a long time ago... Turns out the state of Pennsylvania removed that requirement and SEPTA was just forced to comply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted March 20, 2017 OK...update... since the editing window passed a long time ago... Turns out the state of Pennsylvania removed that requirement and SEPTA was just forced to comply... when the hell did that happen if you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted March 23, 2017 Share #9 Posted March 23, 2017 Guaranteed lemons... This lowest qualified bidder rule needs to go... Plus SEPTA is rumored to have removed the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement, which after the Rotem fiasco is incredibly stupid... Some people (companies) never learn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtat Posted March 24, 2017 Share #10 Posted March 24, 2017 Guaranteed lemons... This lowest qualified bidder rule needs to go... Plus SEPTA is rumored to have removed the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement, which after the Rotem fiasco is incredibly stupid... How are these guaranteed lemons? Just because CRRC is based out of China doesn't mean anything. iPhones come from China...are they low quality? From the article that the OP linked, these aren't low bid, but "best value," which means that price alone doesn't determine a winner. Also, the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement discourages competition. What if a very capable company that had an excellent record wanted to bid but was missing that requirement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted March 24, 2017 How are these guaranteed lemons? Just because CRRC is based out of China doesn't mean anything. iPhones come from China...are they low quality? From the article that the OP linked, these aren't low bid, but "best value," which means that price alone doesn't determine a winner. Also, the "previous experience building FRA compliant rolling stock" requirement discourages competition. What if a very capable company that had an excellent record wanted to bid but was missing that requirement? cause the thing is hyundai never bulit commuter trains before while denver's order was successful while philly's is crap plus CRRC their body of work in singapore is very bad bad batteries and cracked windows no one has ever heard of CRRC before they won the chicago contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtat Posted March 25, 2017 Share #12 Posted March 25, 2017 cause the thing is hyundai never bulit commuter trains before while denver's order was successful while philly's is crap plus CRRC their body of work in singapore is very bad bad batteries and cracked windows no one has ever heard of CRRC before they won the chicago contract The only project that people can ever cite from CRRC is Singapore MRT's, and that wasn't even CRRC; it was CSR Sifang, which is the shakier of the two arms of CRRC. What about the rest of their projects? How about their orders for Turkey, Iran, and Australia? How about their high-speed trains? They wouldn't still be in business if their many other projects were failures. Nobody has ever heard of CRRC because they were formed only last year from a merger of CNR & CSR and because they had never produced anything for the North American market before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDTA Posted March 26, 2017 Share #13 Posted March 26, 2017 I have to say I'm quite surprised everyone is awarding the contracts without them having put out a successful US order. Even if CRRC has successful orders elsewhere, those cars were not coming out of Springfield using that supply chain. Even 'experienced' manufacturers have had problems in the US like Bombardier, and SEPTA's own Hyundai Rotem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #14 Posted March 26, 2017 The only project that people can ever cite from CRRC is Singapore MRT's, and that wasn't even CRRC; it was CSR Sifang, which is the shakier of the two arms of CRRC. What about the rest of their projects? How about their orders for Turkey, Iran, and Australia? How about their high-speed trains? They wouldn't still be in business if their many other projects were failures. Nobody has ever heard of CRRC because they were formed only last year from a merger of CNR & CSR and because they had never produced anything for the North American market before. i hate to predict it but there will be problems. Seems like you are very well versed in their portfolio and know more then a lot about them plus if you ask most railfans about CRRC and it's former entities about 95% would say who huh? I'd trust bombardier Kawasaki and Alstom before these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtat Posted March 27, 2017 Share #15 Posted March 27, 2017 i hate to predict it but there will be problems. Seems like you are very well versed in their portfolio and know more then a lot about them plus if you ask most railfans about CRRC and it's former entities about 95% would say who huh? I'd trust bombardier Kawasaki and Alstom before these guys. There are problems with every order because subway cars are custom-designed vehicles. They all have to go through a full design-engineering-prototype cycle. I actually don't know much about CRRC because they were formed last year, but I think there's a lot of unjustified bias against them simply because they are Chinese. Like I said, nobody has ever heard of these companies before because they've never produced anything for the North American market. It's funny you say you would trust Bombardier over CRRC because I would trust CRRC over Bombardier in their current state. The BART cars are running into serious issues, the TTC Flexity order is significantly delayed, and the R179 order is also significantly delayed. Yet, CRRC's MBTA order is on schedule and there have been no complaints about the quality of their work thus far by MBTA employees. I think we need to give them a chance. I have to say I'm quite surprised everyone is awarding the contracts without them having put out a successful US order. Even if CRRC has successful orders elsewhere, those cars were not coming out of Springfield using that supply chain. Even 'experienced' manufacturers have had problems in the US like Bombardier, and SEPTA's own Hyundai Rotem. CRRC is scoring very well on their technical merits and they are also underbidding their competition by a significant margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 27, 2017 Share #16 Posted March 27, 2017 I actually don't know much about CRRC because they were formed last year, but I think there's a lot of unjustified bias against them simply because they are Chinese. I'd actually say thats justified because CRRC is partially state run by the Chinese government. This allows them to receive untold numbers of cash, which then allows for them to undercut every one else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtat Posted March 28, 2017 Share #17 Posted March 28, 2017 So what if they undercut everyone else? That's their advantage. How does that affect the quality of their work? They still need to be responsible if they want to earn more business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 28, 2017 Share #18 Posted March 28, 2017 So what if they undercut everyone else? That's their advantage. How does that affect the quality of their work? They still need to be responsible if they want to earn more business. With foreign government money? That's a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtat Posted March 29, 2017 Share #19 Posted March 29, 2017 How is that a problem? If they can get the job done, why does it matter where their funding comes from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 29, 2017 Share #20 Posted March 29, 2017 How is that a problem? If they can get the job done, why does it matter where their funding comes from? The problem here is that since the government propping them up, they can form a monopoly in the transit business by extremely low bidding everyone else. By law they have to get the contract and the Chinese gov't pays them the difference... This then means they have no accountability whatsoever to put out a quality product. Pull these games and you'll get contracts no matter what... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted March 29, 2017 Share #21 Posted March 29, 2017 The problem here is that since the government propping them up, they can form a monopoly in the transit business by extremely low bidding everyone else. By law they have to get the contract and the Chinese gov't pays them the difference... This then means they have no accountability whatsoever to put out a quality product. Pull these games and you'll get contracts no matter what... Quality is a thing of the past.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share #22 Posted March 29, 2017 The problem here is that since the government propping them up, they can form a monopoly in the transit business by extremely low bidding everyone else. By law they have to get the contract and the Chinese gov't pays them the difference... This then means they have no accountability whatsoever to put out a quality product. Pull these games and you'll get contracts no matter what... plus our presidents rhetoric on china believes they are ripping us off and able to just dump their product for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share #23 Posted March 30, 2017 also bombardier kept losing out on contracts against them is that why they are screaming rigged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted March 30, 2017 Share #24 Posted March 30, 2017 Someone found a conceptual drawing and boy does it look good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share #25 Posted March 31, 2017 It looks to similar to the bombardier MLV'S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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