The Idea That Just Wont Die: 7 to New Jersey is on the table. Again.

[Wallyhorse]

Give the area 15-20 years. I'm sure they said the same for some other places as well. 

Exactly.  That was the plan when the was built.  The only thing that could have been done differently was to have built it to be four tracks across so it could run express all the way to Queensboro Plaza (which long forgotten by many used to be twice the size it is now).  This is the eventual plan with Hudson Yards.

 

You don't think it'd be easier to use the existing infrastructure within NYC? Where would you Align the new PATH route? If you created a crosstown PATH route it would easily rival the SAS for density and complexity per mile. True TS and GC would have to solve some crowding issues or more passenger flow. But a to NJ would a lot easier feat IMO.

 

 

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I have myself said many times I would do this with the rather than the , in large part because you can use BMT/IND sized cars and it almost certainly would also lead to all stations in the Eastern Division being lengthened to handle 600 foot trains.

 

Run the down to Battery Park via West Street to meet the at South Ferry. A station could be built beneath the WFC Winter Garden entry pavilion at the foot of the giant escalators to the WTC. It could pass beneath the PATH tubes. People who want to go to Jersey can transfer to the PATH at WTC.

 

I had a similar idea to this with the , but as I remember there were a lot of reasons why it would not work.

Since PATH/H&M originally planned to go to Astor Place, build that spur from WTC, then connect it to the SAS.

 

Might need to merge PATH with the Subway, but I'm also the guy who thinks NJT and LIRR should reunite for thru-service to/from LI and NJ to alleviate the Penn Station bottleneck.

 

Connecting to the SAS would require the PATH stations to likely be rebuilt to handle BMT/IND-sized cars, not to mention the FRA/FTA situation.

PATH would have to be integrate with the A division -- the loading gauge is much closer to that than the B.

 

Also, PATH is technically FRA jurisdiction (hence grab irons on cars and PTC), so that would also have to be worked out.

 

In theory, I'm in favor though.

 

As said above, you'd need to rebuild the PATH stations to handle B division cars and the other matters noted.

I'm really surprised that everyone seems to have come with a plan involving rolling stock, routing, and the like but no one, absolutely no one, has mentioned the biggest impediment to any such plan. Politics plain and simple. IMO any proposal I've seen here or in the press ignores the obvious. It's not FRA or FTA compliance but reality. The last few pages have rightfully focused on the necessary nitty gritty but ignores the politics. Didn't " Bridgegate" show you the divisions within the PANY&NJ ? New York State vs New Jersey and the infighting within the agency. Look at the and the politics played in that agency. Then you have the City of New York and NYCT where the local needs are funded and subservient to the surrounding NY counties. In my almost 70 years as a NYC resident I don't ever recall a clamor for ESA. Ask your parents or grandparents if they remember those cries. I sure remember the cries from SE Queens, NE Queens, and Utica Avenue, Brooklyn. Since this extension and any rehab and/or new construction of the PABT on either side of the Hudson fall within the 25 mile limit of the PANY&NJ I guess both projects could fall under it's jurisdiction and leave NYC to fund it's own projects, with or without the .. Most people out here are probably too young to realize that the PA historically wants nothing to do with a money losing transportation project. IIRC it took special legislation from both states to force them to take over the H&M, today's PATH service. The bondholders, not the states, are it's first obligation. I'm just waiting for my fellow posters to explain how these legal and political obstacles can be overcome. Otherwise we're looking at a shoulda, woulda, type project for the foreseeable future. Carry on.

Politics is a big part of it for sure, but we are dealing with newer generations and different needs.  East side access on the LIRR also means some west side access by Metro-North, which also likely allows for a new station to be built at 125th Street-12th Avenue in an area that is seeing a massive expansion of Columbia University (one reason why I have repeatedly proposed Phase 2 of the SAS go all the way across 125th Street).  

 

Very interesting point on PATH.  Few realize how many railroads by the 1950's and '60s were in serious financial peril and had severely cut back and/or eliminated service back then (especially by 1966).  

[Porter]

I had a similar idea to this with the , but as I remember there were a lot of reasons why it would not work. 

 

It should at least be built to the WFC with a terminal station under West Street between Murray and Vesey streets (centered on Barclay Street). An underground pedestrian tunnel could span one block from the Vesey Street mezzanine to Fulton Street for a direct connection with the WFC-WTC underpass. HVAC and other necessary facilities for the station could be housed where the parking lot on the corner of West and Murray is. Ideally, the ugly adjacent building at 125 Barclay Street (District Council 37) could be demolished to make even more space for the terminus; a new tower could be built atop it.

 

This just makes a lot more sense than sending the to New Jersey, and PATH riders could reach Hudson Yards more easily anyway.

[BreeddekalbL]

The to new Jersey is the most stupid idea what is the bloody purpose so they can kneecap building a new PABT or the gateway? just build a new PABT and the gateway and just extend the downtown and build the station at 41st and 10th 

[RailRunRob]

I'm really surprised that everyone seems to have come with a plan involving rolling stock, routing, and the like but no one, absolutely no one, has mentioned the biggest impediment to any such plan. Politics plain and simple. IMO any proposal I've seen here or in the press ignores the obvious. It's not FRA or FTA compliance but reality. The last few pages have rightfully focused on the necessary nitty gritty but ignores the politics. Didn't " Bridgegate" show you the divisions within the PANY&NJ ? New York State vs New Jersey and the infighting within the agency. Look at the and the politics played in that agency. Then you have the City of New York and NYCT where the local needs are funded and subservient to the surrounding NY counties. In my almost 70 years as a NYC resident I don't ever recall a clamor for ESA. Ask your parents or grandparents if they remember those cries. I sure remember the cries from SE Queens, NE Queens, and Utica Avenue, Brooklyn. Since this extension and any rehab and/or new construction of the PABT on either side of the Hudson fall within the 25 mile limit of the PANY&NJ I guess both projects could fall under it's jurisdiction and leave NYC to fund it's own projects, with or without the .. Most people out here are probably too young to realize that the PA historically wants nothing to do with a money losing transportation project. IIRC it took special legislation from both states to force them to take over the H&M, today's PATH service. The bondholders, not the states, are it's first obligation. I'm just waiting for my fellow posters to explain how these legal and political obstacles can be overcome. Otherwise we're looking at a shoulda, woulda, type project for the foreseeable future. Carry on.

First let me start off by saying you're 100% correct historically and currently. I guess my point view and logic is always to start from the point what's technically feasible then the value based on cost,compromise,conveniences and inconveniences. Politics is always something in the back of one's mind that's a given. But like most other laws of man politics isn't a constant it's fickle. It's governed by some of the weaknesses of the men that pass them. Ego Fear, Money things that can remove blocks and force cooperation. My approach to viewing metropolitan areas as I was taught was regional and in someways by GDP. New York area is starting to lose some of its luster. Population as well some of that can be attributed to transportation or the lack of. People understand money it's all based off that whether we like to admit it or not. If New York's losing money Jersey's losing money. IMO moving forward The idea of regional slowdown can force the powers that be to get something done. Even if that means interstate cooperation. What's the point of fighting if your world is ending financially or politically? (Shurgs) It's important to get the younger folks to think out-of-the-box these are the future politicians and heads of these agencies that might indeed remove some of these unnecessary blocks. The one constant that I'm sure of is that things do change at some point. It's like the saying don't skate to where the puck is skate where it's going to be. My take on it.

 

 

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[RailRunRob]

The original plan was to rebuild between 9th and 10th, and then rebuild the old terminal after building the new one and have double the space. There is nothing that says that the Port Authority can't build on top of Port Authority the way Penn Plaza was built on top of the bones of old Penn.

 

A good portion of people getting off at PABT or Penn walk, and thus never pay the subway fare in the first place, let alone wait god knows how long for a train that might not show up due to signal problems.

 

 

 

1. I'm not saying they can't build up what I'm asking you if your adding more space for more buses how are your planing to handle to extra bandwidth Trans Hudson? Manhattan is a Island correct?

 

2. Okay the signals issues that's on the MTA and how they maintain and operate there railroad. That variable can change with money and resource. I'm talking more about options and infrastructure. The people using this extension would predominately be Eastside riders. Midtown East is expected to be redeveloped over the next 20 years. I'm I going to walk from 45th and Park or Lex to PABT or Penn? I'm going to pay the fare you see the at Rush. The value proposition is there.

 

 

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[RailRunRob]

The to new Jersey is the most stupid idea what is the bloody purpose so they can kneecap building a new PABT or the gateway? just build a new PABT and the gateway and just extend the downtown and build the station at 41st and 10th

To your point this extension to New Jersey was never meant replace either plan if you look at the proposal there was a provisions for the ARC tunnels. Just another option to move more people. Bottom line I don't see a way around it if you double the size of the PABT your going find yourself building an extra vehicular tunnel sooner than you think. If I'm wrong let me know.

 

 

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[bobtehpanda]

1. I'm not saying they can't build up what I'm asking you if your adding more space for more buses how are your planing to handle to extra bandwidth Trans Hudson? Manhattan is a Island correct?

 

2. Okay the signals issues that's on the MTA and how they maintain and operate there railroad. That variable can change with money and resource. I'm talking more about options and infrastructure. The people using this extension would predominately be Eastside riders. Midtown East is expected to be redeveloped over the next 20 years. I'm I going to walk from 45th and Park or Lex to PABT or Penn? I'm going to pay the fare you see the at Rush. The value proposition is there.

 

 

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The Lincoln XBL is already the world's busiest bus tunnel, even counting the South American mega-BRTs (in the neighborhood of moving 60,000+ people per hour). In fact, the XBL pumps out so many buses that the PABT can't handle all of them. We would have to build a ridiculous bus terminal to absorb all the capacity that XBL could throw at us. In fact, I would wager that a train extension would provide less capacity than the Lincoln XBL does today.

 

You can't just wave away the signals. A transfer to Secaucus would be much worse than what the options are today.

 

Today: bus direct to PABT. Walk when you get out of the bus terminal to the East Side. This is already very common practice.

: bus to Secaucus. Walk to the subway platform and pay another fare. Wait for a train. When it eventually shows up, squeeze in if you can. Walk eight stories up to the surface, since the has some of the deepest platforms in the system.

 

Considering that bus rides are already hour+ for the people traveling through PABT, making everyone take the would tank ridership to the point where we wouldn't have needed a bus terminal in the first place.

[Deucey]

The Lincoln XBL is already the world's busiest bus tunnel, even counting the South American mega-BRTs (in the neighborhood of moving 60,000+ people per hour). In fact, the XBL pumps out so many buses that the PABT can't handle all of them. We would have to build a ridiculous bus terminal to absorb all the capacity that XBL could throw at us. In fact, I would wager that a train extension would provide less capacity than the Lincoln XBL does today.

 

You can't just wave away the signals. A transfer to Secaucus would be much worse than what the options are today.

 

Today: bus direct to PABT. Walk when you get out of the bus terminal to the East Side. This is already very common practice.

: bus to Secaucus. Walk to the subway platform and pay another fare. Wait for a train. When it eventually shows up, squeeze in if you can. Walk eight stories up to the surface, since the has some of the deepest platforms in the system.

 

Considering that bus rides are already hour+ for the people traveling through PABT, making everyone take the would tank ridership to the point where we wouldn't have needed a bus terminal in the first place.

Truth.

 

Dunno why not renovate PABT and buy the lots bound by 39/40 St and 8/9 Av and expand. Probably would be cheaper than a new build away from the tunnel portal.

[Around the Horn]

Truth.

 

Dunno why not renovate PABT and buy the lots bound by 39/40 St and 8/9 Av and expand. Probably would be cheaper than a new build away from the tunnel portal.

Throw in the 10 Avenue station and I can deal with this.

[46Dover]

As a driver who uses the bus lane in the morning, I marvel at the sight of the cars standing still in one spot while we just cruise on by.

 

The majority of the PABT buses that use the XBL in the morning are of the drop off and go variety. Rockland Coaches, NJT, and Suburban have storage on the New York side of the Hudson while some other buses deadhead back to their garages. The only time the XBL has issues of any kind are catastrophic accidents on 495 West that can back the majority of those empty buses all the way back to the PABT and have an impact on the inbound riders.

[RailRunRob]

The Lincoln XBL is already the world's busiest bus tunnel, even counting the South American mega-BRTs (in the neighborhood of moving 60,000+ people per hour). In fact, the XBL pumps out so many buses that the PABT can't handle all of them. We would have to build a ridiculous bus terminal to absorb all the capacity that XBL could throw at us. In fact, I would wager that a train extension would provide less capacity than the Lincoln XBL does today.

 

You can't just wave away the signals. A transfer to Secaucus would be much worse than what the options are today.

 

Today: bus direct to PABT. Walk when you get out of the bus terminal to the East Side. This is already very common practice.

: bus to Secaucus. Walk to the subway platform and pay another fare. Wait for a train. When it eventually shows up, squeeze in if you can. Walk eight stories up to the surface, since the has some of the deepest platforms in the system.

 

Considering that bus rides are already hour+ for the people traveling through PABT, making everyone take the would tank ridership to the point where we wouldn't have needed a bus terminal in the first place.

To your points..

 

1) XBL yes currently the faucet can pump more water than the basin can handle trust I fully understand the current PABT is at capacity plus the time it takes to deboard riders I've considered and calculated all of that it's a given so you're not wrong just not playing the long game strategically. Now, increase that by 50% I can almost guarantee you that will not be the case then it becomes an issue of bandwidth and pressure then. Increased headways new routes as more people connect their jobs to more Affordable housing stock. What's the Average amount of vehicles per lane per hour? 2,000? It's math. Again if my equation is off let me know. PABT jumped more than 20,000 daily riders in the last 10 years alone. Imagine the next 40-50 years?

 

2) Let's clear the air on what and who exactly can potentially benefit from this transfer.  For starters, this isn't a funnel no one's insinuatingng or even entertaining that riders coming from Port Jervis or a New Brunswick should be forced to squeeze on the subway at Secaucus. Some thru services might have the option to make a quick stop for the option 495's right there. But don't want the train okay on to the Helix and into the PABT. However, you do have tons of Bergen County routes that could feed in some already do. 2,78 124 and so forth. Avondale, Bloomfield Ridgefield Englewood Hackensack these areas could benefit with some type of zoning to the transfer. That's quick access new areas and more housing. You have others coming from NJT's Port Jervis lines that have the option to transfer as well instead of Hoboken and PATH. The biggest draw could be diverting car trips into Manhattan again 495 is right there.There can be huge opportunities for parking and ride drive to the and 15 mins to GCT from Secaucus. I know quite a few people that live in NJ one drives to Harrison and takes the PATH. This isn't a zero-sum win or lose it's options more veins for blood to flow through.  On the point of my Jersey friends, two work east of Madison there not walking to 8th Ave there taking the another in Citicorp taking the same with Penn so I feel that's a bit of a stretch maybe if you're in you 20s and like to walk or your trying to save your money because it's that or eating which I can understand I've been there. No one's doing that in January the MTA is getting that fare. Bottomline PATH or the there needs to be more interconnectivity with New Jersey a new PABT is going to solve it all. It doesn't always have to come down to either or which is seems always happens in some of our discussions.

[bobtehpanda]

 

 

Now, increase that by 50% I can almost guarantee you that will not be the case then it becomes an issue of bandwidth and pressure then.

 

60,000+ people per hour is XBL's capacity today, with the limited capacity that PABT provides. There is certainly capacity for more, and in the future when vehicles are capable of driving themselves, the bus tunnel will be able to handle even more.

 

There is no scenario in which a subway line would perform better than a subway to Secaucus. For New Jersey's development pattern, an open busway for commuter buses works better. We are never going to build rail out to every densifying suburb, and park and rides are crappy for transit.

 

To your points..

2) Let's clear the air on what and who exactly can potentially benefit from this transfer.  For starters, this isn't a funnel no one's insinuatingng or even entertaining that riders coming from Port Jervis or a New Brunswick should be forced to squeeze on the subway at Secaucus. 

 

This is literally what every elected official suggesting a Secaucus bus terminal is saying. We don't exist in a vacuum without politics.

 

If New Jersey wants a local subway line to feed into Manhattan, they can expand the system they currently have. WMATA shows how shitty a multi-jurisdictional subway is, because they've spent the last five years arguing about funding as people have died in the system. The is already overloaded, and will continue to be once Hudson Yards is up.

Truth.

 

Dunno why not renovate PABT and buy the lots bound by 39/40 St and 8/9 Av and expand. Probably would be cheaper than a new build away from the tunnel portal.

 

This was the plan, until NIMBYs in the area threw a shitfest and got Cuomo to tell his PA lackeys to obstruct. Christie is in no position right now to adequately defend his state's interests.

[RailRunRob]

60,000+ people per hour is XBL's capacity today, with the limited capacity that PABT provides. There is certainly capacity for more, and in the future when vehicles are capable of driving themselves, the bus tunnel will be able to handle even more.

 

There is no scenario in which a subway line would perform better than a subway to Secaucus. For New Jersey's development pattern, an open busway for commuter buses works better. We are never going to build rail out to every densifying suburb, and park and rides are crappy for transit.

 

 

This is literally what every elected official suggesting a Secaucus bus terminal is saying. We don't exist in a vacuum without politics.

 

If New Jersey wants a local subway line to feed into Manhattan, they can expand the system they currently have. WMATA shows how shitty a multi-jurisdictional subway is, because they've spent the last five years arguing about funding as people have died in the system. The is already overloaded, and will continue to be once Hudson Yards is up.

 

 

2,000 Vehicles per hour per lane that's maybe a vehicle every 1.7-1.8 seconds. Autonomous technology okay maybe you get it down to 1.4-1.5 seconds depending on speed, gradient, weather and breaking. So now maybe you can get 35% more cars through you're crossing but there's still a limit on any physical space there have been many a empirical study done on this very topic I can pass them along. Furthermore, you put way too much faith in the Government and regulators ability to roll out this autonomous technology. You know they have to figure a way to patent and contract people, FCC make Billions yuck just a mess! Don't expect this out of California off of the 280 or the 101 anytime soon. Since we're talking somewhat in the abstract automated Busways and what not these were some of the same points I brought up with the SAS discussion so ultimately are we saying in 40-50 years there might not be a need for Subway Expansion? Would you need to if you could run 70-foot buses 5 feet from each other? Just asking being were in the Neighborhood?.

 

New Jersey development plan? Densifying Suburbs? Please elaborate? These are area's some within a five-mile radius of the CBD? Not 30 miles not even 20! 10-5 Miles!

 

To your other point if the political officials think they could funnel via subway instead a of a New PABT that's silly none of my comments are based on that assumption.Maybe that's why were missing each other. So you have no argument with me there. Park & Ride is bad for Transit how? It kinda fits the last mile narrative you lost me there as well?

 

WMATA okay here's the thing everyone's telling me what's crappy and what's wrong and not working. Can someone tell what we can do? Way to much transit experience and knowledge here! What could A possible solution look like? Don't tell me what can't be done let me know what can. Way too young for this. You should be the guy trying to figure it out and talking to the board just saying. All this jurisdiction crap is going to cost the City a lot of money your starting to see it with the Penn Station stuff mark my words on that one.

[bobtehpanda]

Even without the jurisdictions, Hudson Yards will suck up all western capacity on the . You don't solve congestion by making a tube longer, you solve it by building more tubes. PATH needs the extra capacity anyways, so why not just extend a Jersey system instead of fitting a square peg into a circle hole with the ?

 

New Jersey is densest along its coasts, which PATH would be much better at serving. The dense portions that aren't next to PATH are next to NJT, so Gateway would be better for serving those residents. Have you seen a map of Secaucus? It's in the middle of nowhere. 

 

P&Rs should really be funded by towns and not transit agencies, since really they exist for the convenience of the areas they serve, and they're very expensive to build per parking spot. Spending $30,000 a spot for an elevated parking garage is a terrible use of transit money, when that could go to feeder buses or something else. We're basically the only country that builds massive P&Rs, even compared to other low density countries with similar built-out forms.

[RailRunRob]

Even without the jurisdictions, Hudson Yards will suck up all western capacity on the . You don't solve congestion by making a tube longer, you solve it by building more tubes. PATH needs the extra capacity anyways, so why not just extend a Jersey system instead of fitting a square peg into a circle hole with the ?

 

New Jersey is densest along its coasts, which PATH would be much better at serving. The dense portions that aren't next to PATH are next to NJT, so Gateway would be better for serving those residents. Have you seen a map of Secaucus? It's in the middle of nowhere. 

 

P&Rs should really be funded by towns and not transit agencies, since really they exist for the convenience of the areas they serve, and they're very expensive to build per parking spot. Spending $30,000 a spot for an elevated parking garage is a terrible use of transit money, when that could go to feeder buses or something else. We're basically the only country that builds massive P&Rs, even compared to other low density countries with similar built-out forms.

So much has been said so far let me start with this? What is it that you know that Parsons Brinckerhoff doesn't? Do you feel the information is off? There painting it one sided? From what I gather there saying it's feasible Hudson Yards and all I'm looking at the numbers most of it makes sense it's a package and presentation I'm used to and know well. What's is it that not being said there that you know?

 

 New Jersey? 47th largest state, 8.7m square miles, Secaucus, New Jersey 3.5 miles from Manhattan. I'm not talking NJ I'm talking immediate NY metro area! What Sunnyside is 3 miles in the other direction. Fine, it's in the middle of nowhere. But it's parallel to a major interstate so is it in really in the middle of nowhere? 

15 mins in either direction via 95 and your somewhere. Feed the local Hudson, Bergen bus routes into the intermodal. There's tons of surrounding cities and townships. Your thinking to much with the Park and Ride you're giving me the all the textbook answers and definitions and your right for the most part, however, there's always exceptions to the rules especially in application one size doesn't fit all. Allowing someone swift access via an interstate and transit access a less congested option I might add. No toll and Parking Garage in Manhattan. You'll get more people off the road and via the crossing heck with that trend, you may have some more room for Buses. All parts working together within a bigger machine.

Who's going to pay?! Always the question. I'm sure the Townships and New Jersey would pay for a P/R or garage why wouldn't they? Especially if they could charge a little something. Maybe some incentives from the Feds? Listen when your paying for the house on your own. I hear you! You watch your dollars and you want to see your return on investment after all your bearing all the risk. But when you have that same house with 4 or 5 people going in on it. It's a different situation and you might be willing close the deal with mitigation on that risk. I can't see this not being the issue here. Why wouldn't the Feds and NJ put in on it? It sweetens the pot for all sides.

 

You're correct on capacity and adding bandwidth these are some of the same arguments I've made on topics like the SAS. so not to be a jerk about it these are all points I'm fully aware not that I've been much with it but I did study Civil and Environmental engineering so what your saying makes sense most of your points do overall in principal. But in application IMO there are some other variables that I see missing. Which is why I asked about the PB study from 2011. I see the numbers it's logical im looking for the holes I don't see em. At least at this level or stage, there's a lot missing, But this seems to be enough to move to the next stage there's going to be disruption but that's a part of the game.

 

But ultimately I'm for more connectivity Trans-Hudson or PATH and better integration.

[bobtehpanda]

So much has been said so far let me start with this? What is it that you know that Parsons Brinckerhoff doesn't? Do you feel the information is off? There painting it one sided? From what I gather there saying it's feasible Hudson Yards and all I'm looking at the numbers most of it makes sense it's a package and presentation I'm used to and know well. What's is it that not being said there that you know?

 

 New Jersey? 47th largest state, 8.7m square miles, Secaucus, New Jersey 3.5 miles from Manhattan. I'm not talking NJ I'm talking immediate NY metro area! What Sunnyside is 3 miles in the other direction. Fine, it's in the middle of nowhere. But it's parallel to a major interstate so is it in really in the middle of nowhere? 

15 mins in either direction via 95 and your somewhere. Feed the local Hudson, Bergen bus routes into the intermodal. There's tons of surrounding cities and townships. Your thinking to much with the Park and Ride you're giving me the all the textbook answers and definitions and your right for the most part, however, there's always exceptions to the rules especially in application one size doesn't fit all. Allowing someone swift access via an interstate and transit access a less congested option I might add. No toll and Parking Garage in Manhattan. You'll get more people off the road and via the crossing heck with that trend, you may have some more room for Buses. All parts working together within a bigger machine.

Who's going to pay?! Always the question. I'm sure the Townships and New Jersey would pay for a P/R or garage why wouldn't they? Especially if they could charge a little something. Maybe some incentives from the Feds? Listen when your paying for the house on your own. I hear you! You watch your dollars and you want to see your return on investment after all your bearing all the risk. But when you have that same house with 4 or 5 people going in on it. It's a different situation and you might be willing close the deal with mitigation on that risk. I can't see this not being the issue here. Why wouldn't the Feds and NJ put in on it? It sweetens the pot for all sides.

 

You're correct on capacity and adding bandwidth these are some of the same arguments I've made on topics like the SAS. so not to be a jerk about it these are all points I'm fully aware not that I've been much with it but I did study Civil and Environmental engineering so what your saying makes sense most of your points do overall in principal. But in application IMO there are some other variables that I see missing. Which is why I asked about the PB study from 2011. I see the numbers it's logical im looking for the holes I don't see em. At least at this level or stage, there's a lot missing, But this seems to be enough to move to the next stage there's going to be disruption but that's a part of the game.

 

But ultimately I'm for more connectivity Trans-Hudson or PATH and better integration.

 

PB is being commissioned by people who have a vested interest in doing a to Secaucus rather than a expanded PABT.

 

The City's feasibility studies for the Line Extension estimate that when the development is fully built out, 34-HY will become the busiest subway station in the system. On the face of it this seems like an extreme statement, but 1. those statistics only really count entries and exits, not transfer activity, and 2. Times Square has several subway stations relatively close to it, whereas there are no alternate stations for 34-HY. If we are to believe it (and I certainly do) I have no idea how there's supposed to be peak capacity for those Secaucus people as well.

[Around the Horn]

Yeah, the estimate for Hudson Yards is 35,000 passengers an hour. The can only handle 56,336 (2,012 people x 28 trains per hour) at crush load conditions, leaving room for 21,336 people at Secaucus (at most). 

 

The stations in Manhattan most certainly can't handle 112,672 people an hour combined.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

PB is being commissioned by people who have a vested interest in doing a to Secaucus rather than a expanded PABT.

 

The City's feasibility studies for the Line Extension estimate that when the development is fully built out, 34-HY will become the busiest subway station in the system. On the face of it this seems like an extreme statement, but 1. those statistics only really count entries and exits, not transfer activity, and 2. Times Square has several subway stations relatively close to it, whereas there are no alternate stations for 34-HY. If we are to believe it (and I certainly do) I have no idea how there's supposed to be peak capacity for those Secaucus people as well.

  

And that's the problem with so many of these transit project studies. The organizations commissioning them manage to get them skewered to favor their goals. We don't get a more impartial study when we should be. Why won't they examine a PATH alternative? Why the ?

Yeah, the estimate for Hudson Yards is 35,000 passengers an hour. The can only handle 56,336 (2,012 people x 28 trains per hour) at crush load conditions, leaving room for 21,336 people at Secaucus (at most). 

 

The stations in Manhattan most certainly can't handle 112,672 people an hour combined.

Am I right to assume that estimate would include only the one station in Secaucus and no intermediate stations in, say, Union City or Weehawken? If so, can you imagine just how much worse the crowding on the would be?

[Around the Horn]

  Am I right to assume that estimate would include only the one station in Secaucus and no intermediate stations in, say, Union City or Weehawken? If so, can you imagine just how much worse the crowding on the would be?

 

That would be correct. Not counting Hudson Yards' 35,000 people per hour, you only have room for 21,336 people per hour going eastbound at rush hour.

[RailRunRob]

PB is being commissioned by people who have a vested interest in doing a to Secaucus rather than a expanded PABT.

 

The City's feasibility studies for the Line Extension estimate that when the development is fully built out, 34-HY will become the busiest subway station in the system. On the face of it this seems like an extreme statement, but 1. those statistics only really count entries and exits, not transfer activity, and 2. Times Square has several subway stations relatively close to it, whereas there are no alternate stations for 34-HY. If we are to believe it (and I certainly do) I have no idea how there's supposed to be peak capacity for those Secaucus people as well.

Umm, you know when you have a point you have a point. Yeah, that would be something if there just counting entries and exits that's too much not accounted for ridership wise don't see anything covering that. Point taken with HY and lack of alternatives there.

[RailRunRob]

Yeah, the estimate for Hudson Yards is 35,000 passengers an hour. The can only handle 56,336 (2,012 people x 28 trains per hour) at crush load conditions, leaving room for 21,336 people at Secaucus (at most). 

 

The stations in Manhattan most certainly can't handle 112,672 people an hour combined.

So 182 people per car at max? That 28 tph jumps to 30 with CTBC correct?

[bobtehpanda]

  

And that's the problem with so many of these transit project studies. The organizations commissioning them manage to get them skewered to favor their goals. We don't get a more impartial study when we should be. Why won't they examine a PATH alternative? Why the ?

 

Keep in mind that the has only ever been proposed as an New York alternative to a disliked Jersey project, such as ARC or PABT replacement. No one has ever actually proposed it as a good thing in and of itself.

 

ARC was proposed to relieve tunnel capacity for NJT; PABT expansion is proposed to relieve existing PABT. For those trips, a extension is really bad because you force people with hour+ commutes to transfer to a slower subway train.

 

For the communities closer to the coast, PATH is really what you should be expanding. However, PANYNJ has no interest in doing so, primarily for two reasons:

 

1. PA does not want to be operating PATH in the first place. They're a (sea and air)ports organization, not a subway operator.

2. PATH bleeds a ridiculous amount of money. Even though by all accounts it is full and popular at all times of day, and it runs less service than the MTA does during off times, cost per rider is somewhere like $10. MTA's cost per rider is somewhere like $2. PA is understandably reluctant to run this financial dumpster fire of a service, let alone expand it.

 

TL;DR The 7 Line extension is a solution looking for a problem, and no one is interested in expanding PATH because it bleeds money.

[Trainmaster5]

Keep in mind that the has only ever been proposed as an New York alternative to a disliked Jersey project, such as ARC or PABT replacement. No one has ever actually proposed it as a good thing in and of itself.

 

ARC was proposed to relieve tunnel capacity for NJT; PABT expansion is proposed to relieve existing PABT. For those trips, a extension is really bad because you force people with hour+ commutes to transfer to a slower subway train.

 

For the communities closer to the coast, PATH is really what you should be expanding. However, PANYNJ has no interest in doing so, primarily for two reasons:

 

1. PA does not want to be operating PATH in the first place. They're a (sea and air)ports organization, not a subway operator.

2. PATH bleeds a ridiculous amount of money. Even though by all accounts it is full and popular at all times of day, and it runs less service than the MTA does during off times, cost per rider is somewhere like $10. MTA's cost per rider is somewhere like $2. PA is understandably reluctant to run this financial dumpster fire of a service, let alone expand it.

 

TL;DR The 7 Line extension is a solution looking for a problem, and no one is interested in expanding PATH because it bleeds money.

The problem seems to be rooted on the western side of the Hudson no matter how one views the "solution". IMO some of the railfans should take a big step back and look at the big picture. Your TL;DR line sums it all up. Where is the justification/benefit for the present ridership? I'd rather see NYCT funds allocated to New Yorkers before they flow across the river. As you clearly point out the PANY&NJ reluctantly took over the H&M rail operations which became PATH. A money-losing operation.Since the agency already operates two bus stations in Manhattan , the tunnels and the GWB, perhaps they, the State of New Jersey, NJT, and the bus companies involved can come up with an acceptable solution and the funding for it. I'm not sure of the solution but it doesn't have to involve the or the . Maybe the New Yorker residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and those newly interested in infrastructure can help them out. Some of us have been advocating infrastructure improvements since way back in 2008. Better late than never I guess. BTW has anyone else besides a dinosaur like me realized that the same consulting firm(s) have been utilized for the last 40 years or so when it comes to transportation projects? Why not some diversification and some global input?  Just asking. Carry on.

[bobtehpanda]

BTW has anyone else besides a dinosaur like me realized that the same consulting firm(s) have been utilized for the last 40 years or so when it comes to transportation projects? Why not some diversification and some global input?  Just asking. Carry on.

 

The actual person Parsons in the name PB designed the original IRT. They're about as hometown as a hometown firm can get.

 

That being said, most of the big companies that do engineering design are American, and happen to already work on MTA projects with varying degrees of success. For other companies, it's both expensive for them to set up shop in New York, and even more expensive to begin complying with all the crap that state procurement has put on the books.

[Trainmaster5]

The actual person Parsons in the name PB designed the original IRT. They're about as hometown as a hometown firm can get.

 

That being said, most of the big companies that do engineering design are American, and happen to already work on MTA projects with varying degrees of success. For other companies, it's both expensive for them to set up shop in New York, and even more expensive to begin complying with all the crap that state procurement has put on the books.

I'm familiar with the name and the company. I was wondering if anyone else besides PB or Slattery

bid on projects. Lately Citnalta has spread it's name in the mix.