To ease Penn Station woes, a new plan calls for a transit hub in Sunnyside, Queens

[N6 Limited]

https://www.6sqft.com/to-ease-penn-station-woes-a-new-plan-calls-for-a-transit-hub-in-sunnyside-queens/

[RR503]

Talk about planning while high...

 

Seriously, I'm all for through running, but destroying one of our city's train yards for the sake of pretty renderings and press coverage is unproductive and unrealistic. And anyway, this won't be able to help anyone in 2 months.

[RailRunRob]

Talk about planning while high...

 

Seriously, I'm all for through running, but destroying one of our city's train yards for the sake of pretty renderings and press coverage is unproductive and unrealistic. And anyway, this won't be able to help anyone in 2 months.

Maybe not so high after all. Here's the plan to deck over Sunnyside yards. Ultimately we're going to have to walk and chew gum at the same time. While were trying to get temporary relief have to be planning the long term there's no other way.

 

https://www.nycedc.com/project/sunnyside-yards

[bobtehpanda]

ReThink NYC is so dumb, not even counting the train proposals (like there won't be any problems just filling in the space between Rikers and LGA for more airport), that it should not be seriously entertained by anyone.

Maybe not so high after all. Here's the plan to deck over Sunnyside yards. Ultimately we're going to have to walk and chew gum at the same time. While were trying to get temporary relief have to be planning the long term there no other way.

 

https://www.nycedc.com/project/sunnyside-yards

 

It doesn't "relieve" anything. There is no congestion from the LIRR, and all the NJT congestion is because there's not enough capacity to run through to Sunnyside, which is still the case under this plan.

[RailRunRob]

ReThink NYC is so dumb, not even counting the train proposals (like there won't be any problems just filling in the space between Rikers and LGA for more airport), that it should not be seriously entertained by anyone.

 

It doesn't "relieve" anything. There is no congestion from the LIRR, and all the NJT congestion is because there's not enough capacity to run through to Sunnyside, which is still the case under this plan.

I was mainly speaking to Sunnyside yard destruction point.  Isn't the point to move trains in and out Penn quicker? I glanced the plan but would'nt you be turning trains at Port Morris as well? Breakdown your capacity point what am I missing?

[bobtehpanda]

I was mainly speaking to Sunnyside yard destruction point.  Isn't the point to move trains in and out Penn quicker? I glanced the plan but would'nt you be turning trains at Port Morris as well? Breakdown your capacity point what am I missing?

 

East River tunnel capacity. If they could run all the trains to Sunnyside, they would, but they can't, so they don't.

[RailRunRob]

East River tunnel capacity. If they could run all the trains to Sunnyside, they would, but they can't, so they don't.

You mean to tell me the East River Tunnels with 4 tracks, not 2 is at Capacity?

[bobtehpanda]

You mean to tell me the East River Tunnels with 4 tracks, not 2 is at Capacity?

 

During peak times, 3 out of 4 tunnels are being used to shove LIRR trains into Penn Station. That leaves 1 tunnel for going to Sunnyside, and a good chunk of that capacity is Amtrak and LIRR.

[RailRunRob]

During peak times, 3 out of 4 tunnels are being used to shove LIRR trains into Penn Station. That leaves 1 tunnel for going to Sunnyside, and a good chunk of that capacity is Amtrak and LIRR.

Is that a capacity issue? or track routing issues? So if they optimized Harold you're telling me they couldn't get better thruput?  Northern most tubes would be used for inbound traffic southern for outbound. I'm sure this plan isn't perfect by any stretch but don't tell me it can't be done because you can't see beyond current configurations. All these simulations these folks ran and you mean to tell me they didn't factor in the East River Tubes? come on! That's the foundation.

 

[bobtehpanda]

This is a design studio, not an actual engineering firm. All they have is a pretty site and video.

 

Capacity through the East River tunnels is not currently limited by the absence of through-routing, because LIRR uses West Side Yard to turn around and not Penn Station. Unless LIRR were to reduce the number of trains running to Penn Station, there is no additional East River capacity to speak for. All of that capacity, as of today, is spoken for mostly in the form of AM peak trains into the City from Long Island.

 

Once East Side Access opens, the LIRR will still be running the same amount of trains to Penn, and on top of that Metro North wants dibs on some of that East River AM peak capacity as well. There is literally no way for more trains to through run in the reverse peak direction to Sunnyside/Port Morris/some other half baked terminal without reducing trains from Long Island in the peak direction.

[RailRunRob]

This is a design studio, not an actual engineering firm. All they have is a pretty site and video.

 

Capacity through the East River tunnels is not currently limited by the absence of through-routing, because LIRR uses West Side Yard to turn around and not Penn Station. Unless LIRR were to reduce the number of trains running to Penn Station, there is no additional East River capacity to speak for. All of that capacity, as of today, is spoken for mostly in the form of AM peak trains into the City from Long Island.

 

Once East Side Access opens, the LIRR will still be running the same amount of trains to Penn, and on top of that Metro North wants dibs on some of that East River AM peak capacity as well. There is literally no way for more trains to through run in the reverse peak direction to Sunnyside/Port Morris/some other half baked terminal without reducing trains from Long Island in the peak direction.

Come on you know I know better than that. You have a great number of experts in the field backing some variation of this type of plan. Margaret Newman from ARUP, Dr Passwell from City College, Dr Vuchic from U Penn. It maybe a bunch of designers there's some technical know-how here as to be. Someone spoke on helixes at these terminals to reverse trains including Penn why couldn't you turn trains this way with minimal delays? What's a number of trains in from Queens vs New Jersey currently? Also, what's the maximum amount of trains per tube via the East River Tubes?  Through running needs to happen in some way especially for regional growth imagine if every subway line terminated in Midtown and had to reverse back to the Bronx or Brooklyn instead of running thru service. Kinda what we have here with Penn no?   

[RR503]

Through running does help. Currently you have an NJT on one track discharging and a LIRR boarding. Combine those trains and voila, you've just cut # of necessary tracks by 1/2. That said, ReThink is a lot of smoke an mirrors. The guy who runs it -- Jim Venturi -- is trying to get out of his father's -- Robert Venturi -- shadow, and this is how he figures he'll make a name for himself. The through running proposal is great, but they're getting credit for it even though it'd been suggested on multiple occasions before. Their other ideas -- SBx destruction, Sunnyside hub, etc, LGA = Rikers are nice to look at but don't really solve any problems. (I'd be happy to explain why, but I've gotta work rn). 

 

That's my .02

[bobtehpanda]

Come on you know I know better than that. You have a great number of experts in the field backing some variation of this type of plan. Margaret Newman from ARUP, Dr Passwell from City College, Dr Vuchic from U Penn. It maybe a bunch of designers there's some technical know-how here as to be. Someone spoke on helixes at these terminals to reverse trains including Penn why couldn't you turn trains this way with minimal delays? What's a number of trains in from Queens vs New Jersey currently? Also, what's the maximum amount of trains per tube via the East River Tubes?  Through running needs to happen in some way especially for regional growth imagine if every subway line terminated in Midtown and had to reverse back to the Bronx or Brooklyn instead of running thru service. Kinda what we have here with Penn no?   

 

And? Big names mean nothing next to actual studies, which there are none of. You know what other company was supported by a lot of big names? Theranos. Knowing who's who has nothing to do with the actual merits of this proposal.

 

There are no helixes at Penn. Building one around the existing station would be so laughably difficult that it's a joke.

 

There is no additional East River Tunnel capacity during the peak hour. This is why there are no LIRR reverse peak trains, and why Amtrak plans to build an additional pair as part of NEC Future.

 

The only answer for additional NJ capacity is Gateway, more PATH, and if they get really desperate, a commuter rail terminal under the mess that is Fulton/WTC. Through running not only makes no sense today and does not provide additional capacity today, it also is not technologically possible with any electrified rolling stock, all of which is new at the regional agencies. Any serious, smart through-running plan usually involves another pair of tunnels under both rivers to ease capacity.

[RailRunRob]

And? Big names mean nothing next to actual studies, which there are none of. You know what other company was supported by a lot of big names? Theranos. Knowing who's who has nothing to do with the actual merits of this proposal.

 

There are no helixes at Penn. Building one around the existing station would be so laughably difficult that it's a joke.

 

There is no additional East River Tunnel capacity during the peak hour. This is why there are no LIRR reverse peak trains, and why Amtrak plans to build an additional pair as part of NEC Future.

 

The only answer for additional NJ capacity is Gateway, more PATH, and if they get really desperate, a commuter rail terminal under the mess that is Fulton/WTC. Through running not only makes no sense today and does not provide additional capacity today, it also is not technologically possible with any electrified rolling stock, all of which is new at the regional agencies. Any serious, smart through-running plan usually involves another pair of tunnels under both rivers to ease capacity.

 Elizabeth Homes really?? Big names what investors that know money,greed, and nothing about tech/science? Pfizer and George Shultz I mean a group of Stanford wiz kids you can see the appeal I mean Silicon Valley come on Id fall for it!!  I'm giving you names of planners, professors and people um in the field old guys nothing too sexy about it!!  Here's a list of Theranos investors for you viewing pleasure. 

 

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/theranos/investors

 

We have the talent here in NY and the US create the studies if they don't exist How many graduating class of Engineers this week last 10 years? All these brains and talent!!. If it's not fully the Rethink plan or the RPA then fine are you saying we can't figure this out how is New York going to be a real global contender if were not planning for growth? We have one intercity Rail Hub for a City of 8 million it's laughable. I live in Jersey and work on Long Island wha? You want to drive and in all likelihood though Manhattan's core? Come on and there's new scenarios like this in a growing region.Staten Island to Standford, Minola to Newark, Brooklyn to WhitePlains you get the point.. The Gateways going to happen that's a given. Highspeed NEC okay great your right new tunnels via the East River. You still haven't answer fully what are the capacity numbers for the tunnels on both sides? The Gateway is going to happen so count that in your calculations being done with this convo just in case you forgot. Okay, there aren't any LIRR return trips but why is that really? I'm with you that make's sense especially with dwell times in Penn and the amount of time and crew it would take to reverse a train and that's not counting the diverging points and possibly blocking inbound trains. So yes that makes sense send them right into the west side and out of the way. So if that dwell time was cut. I had four tracks on each side out and turned trains 5 miles west and north of Penn, quickly and don't you forget to add that helix in there just because it's cool..(wink) what it's not possible?  Can we at least agree that through running would benefit the region sure there's a lot to figure out but at least that?   

[Around the Horn]

One thing you have to remember RailRunRob, is that the ReThinkNYC fools never thought this far. They literally drew lines on a map and called it a day.

 

Bobtehpanda has a much more realistic view of the capacity of the East River tubes. 3 tubes are city bound, the other tube is away from the city

 

(and I like Vuchic's work.. There's just no way to apply it here successfully)

[RR503]

Also, blind trust is never good. People should earn your respect, not just have it automatically because society tells you that you should give it. 

[RailRunRob]

One thing you have to remember RailRunRob, is that the ReThinkNYC fools never thought this far. They literally drew lines on a map and called it a day.

 

Bobtehpanda has a much more realistic view of the capacity of the East River tubes. 3 tubes are city bound, the other tube is away from the city

 

(and I like Vuchic's work.. There's just no way to apply it here successfully)

. Indeed I've gone to afew of his talks and regional connectivity has been a speaking point along with through running service. But I believe you and Bob on ReThink i've done a little research and seen some of their videos i'm kind of flabbergasted there not doing the basic mathematics to be honest it's pretty foreign I work in a world where details are everything and if your in it you're at least give them the benefit of the doubt that you understand the process this is not the case here. I guess my question is what would be the proper way to do this? I have the upmost respect for Bob he's a super intelligent person. He's a logical no question about and it's a very valuable trait we always have logical discussions as well. But sometimes when feel we have it all in the bag we miss something sometimes the small things add up. I know this from personal experience with myself. optimizing re-organize and even if you're in a box you shave a minute and a half off dwelltimes that could add up you optimize a few junctions and diversion points that adds up. You have to push the boundaries and ask the questions that's kinda of what I do. It's not in my nature to take things at face value sometimes I'm the guy reverse checks the math to see if I find something but again I'm also the guy that says when he's wrong and give's credit where and when it's due so nothing personal. But ultimately thinkNYC's way might not be it but I'm curious to know what would? And also what the current limitations are with the tunnels on both ends? TPH? ect.

 

 

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[RailRunRob]

Also, blind trust is never good. People should earn your respect, not just have it automatically because society tells you that you should give it.

Indeed you have a point my standpoint has always been give respect until proven otherwise. When you come from a formal engineering background and training. When you see engineering proposal's presented.For me at least I expect some type of standard to have been met. After all it's logical why would somebody present regional plans if there not actually planners?

What's there credentials? So yeah at first glance I didn't want to believe there weren't some types of doctors or engineers involved in any of this planning.(Shrugs) Fool me once shame on you!! Fool me twice shame on me!! Lesson learnt!

 

 

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