Jump to content

Bold Action Is Needed To Stop City Transit's Downward Spiral


Recommended Posts


it will never happen cause you will have people in outer boros who will scream bloody murder.

 

The people in the outer boroughs could be persuaded if actual transit improvments were promised (and I say this as someone who lives there).

 

This would never happen because the people in Nassau and Suffolk would now be required to pay to get off the Island. It's bad enough that they're forced to live there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as in fund all the big projects, plus some  also what happen to bond issues?

 

Is this even English...?

 

The bond issues that didn't result in anything getting built are so far back in the past that most of the people that voted for/against them are either retired somewhere else or dead. No one would be taken seriously by anyone who brings those points up anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The people in the outer boroughs could be persuaded if actual transit improvments were promised (and I say this as someone who lives there).

 

This would never happen because the people in Nassau and Suffolk would now be required to pay to get off the Island. It's bad enough that they're forced to live there.

Which is why I oppose these tolls. Bad enough Staten Islanders are penalized for living in the 5th borough when using their cars to go to the other four; doing that to LIers without a free alternative to access the rest of the state/country is morally bankrupt.

 

I don't like the idea that to avoid giving TBTA bridge tolls one has to endure the FDR adding insane amounts of time, but that's the price to pay when shunpiking. But it's still an alternative. Leaving everywhere that isn't Manhattan no alternative to not having EZPass take money changes is extortion to me - no matter the discount (a la SI).

 

Higher fares, higher vehicle registration or licensing fees, or reinstitute the MTA tax. But all the crossings on Interstates are already tolled (in a system that was meant to be toll-free; stupid loopholes and grandfather clauses). Another funding mechanism is needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is why I oppose these tolls. Bad enough Staten Islanders are penalized for living in the 5th borough when using their cars to go to the other four; doing that to LIers without a free alternative to access the rest of the state/country is morally bankrupt.

 

I don't like the idea that to avoid giving TBTA bridge tolls one has to endure the FDR adding insane amounts of time, but that's the price to pay when shunpiking. But it's still an alternative. Leaving everywhere that isn't Manhattan no alternative to not having EZPass take money changes is extortion to me - no matter the discount (a la SI).

 

Higher fares, higher vehicle registration or licensing fees, or reinstitute the MTA tax. But all the crossings on Interstates are already tolled (in a system that was meant to be toll-free; stupid loopholes and grandfather clauses). Another funding mechanism is needed.

 

In this case, the morals of the whole thing are a little more blurry, since the Long Islanders could damn well build a free bridge or tunnel across the Sound. They just hate the idea every time it comes up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this even English...?

 

The bond issues that didn't result in anything getting built are so far back in the past that most of the people that voted for/against them are either retired somewhere else or dead. No one would be taken seriously by anyone who brings those points up anymore.

 

i meant to say as in fund the really big projects and even if they wanted to fund projects from long ago such as queens bypass etc? also why don't they vote on refrendums with sales tax hikes like in california specifically los angeles they are ferociously building out their subway thanks to the referendums

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In this case, the morals of the whole thing are a little more blurry, since the Long Islanders could damn well build a free bridge or tunnel across the Sound. They just hate the idea every time it comes up.

But isn't it the State's responsibility to provide equal access to the rest of the state without discrimination (and to provide reasonable alternative arrangements when necessary)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But isn't it the State's responsibility to provide equal access to the rest of the state without discrimination (and to provide reasonable alternative arrangements when necessary)?

 

but the thing is the bridge across the sound interstate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But isn't it the State's responsibility to provide equal access to the rest of the state without discrimination (and to provide reasonable alternative arrangements when necessary)?

 

Of course. The State has proposed, multiple times, a highway linking Nassau to Westchester. Every single time this is proposed, the Long Islanders have a NIMBY hissy fit and say they don't want it because "character of the Island" or "too much traffic" or whatever, never mind that Long Island already has terrible traffic anyways and the Island doesn't have a character other than generic cookie-cutter suburbia.

 

Then they complain and wonder why they have to leave the Island through the City...

i meant to say as in fund the really big projects and even if they wanted to fund projects from long ago such as queens bypass etc? also why don't they vote on refrendums with sales tax hikes like in california specifically los angeles they are ferociously building out their subway thanks to the referendums

 

Referenda are a part of the Californian state constitution. They are not a part of New York's (and good luck changing the state Constitution)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course. The State has proposed, multiple times, a highway linking Nassau to Westchester. Every single time this is proposed, the Long Islanders have a NIMBY hissy fit and say they don't want it because "character of the Island" or "too much traffic" or whatever, never mind that Long Island already has terrible traffic anyways and the Island doesn't have a character other than generic cookie-cutter suburbia...

But wouldn't that road be rolled as well? Especially since states are becoming creative in getting the Feds to finance toll roads...

 

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/tollroad.cfm

 

 

Referenda are a part of the Californian state constitution. They are not a part of New York's (and good luck changing the state Constitution)

Really??

 

As much as I complained about this as a Californian - direct democracy, now that (as of this past Thursday) I gave up my CA license for a NY one at DMV, AND registered to vote, now I miss the ability to bypass the legislature to get laws passed.

 

That and Open Primaries - DMV employee told me those don't exist here.

 

Matter of fact, what are the best sources for state political news?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But wouldn't that road be rolled as well? Especially since states are becoming creative in getting the Feds to finance toll roads...

 

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/tollroad.cfm

 

 

 

Really??

 

As much as I complained about this as a Californian - direct democracy, now that (as of this past Thursday) I gave up my CA license for a NY one at DMV, AND registered to vote, now I miss the ability to bypass the legislature to get laws passed.

 

The State could choose to make it so, and the State could choose to not make it so. The devil is in the details, but the problem is that whenever you bring the Sound Bridge up, people reflexively say no to it. Heck, someone could offer to build it entirely with their own private money and with no tolls, and Long Islanders would still say no.

 

Eh, the arguments for direct democracy are very mixed. Prop 13 is the reason why California's budget is like a rollercoaster, which isn't great for anybody involved. Direct democracy is the epitome of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type initiatives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but the thing is the bridge across the sound interstate?

It IS interstate and the responsibility of the state of New York and the state of Connecticut. Unless an entity like the PANY&NJ can be formed to issue bonds ALL of the taxpayers in both states are on the hook for the cost. Having residences in two states I can attest there are many NIMBYS in the NYC metro area. As a long time Brooklyn ( aka a Long Islander ) resident I find the residents of Nassau, Suffolk, and Richmond counties rank at the top of the NIMBY list. I can remember Governor Rockefeller proposing a crossing at the same time he proposed today's (MTA). I can't imagine how that's gonna go down to someone in Syracuse, Buffalo, or Ithaca today. Prince Andrew has the cojones to propose such a project but the cost compared to Rockefeller's time would be astronomical. Rockefeller should have rammed it through but he had presidential aspirations and needed the Nassau and Suffolk GOP behind him. That's today's history lesson. Carry on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The State could choose to make it so, and the State could choose to not make it so. The devil is in the details, but the problem is that whenever you bring the Sound Bridge up, people reflexively say no to it. Heck, someone could offer to build it entirely with their own private money and with no tolls, and Long Islanders would still say no.

 

Eh, the arguments for direct democracy are very mixed. Prop 13 is the reason why California's budget is like a rollercoaster, which isn't great for anybody involved. Direct democracy is the epitome of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type initiatives.

Oh, I complained about direct democracy for all the years I was able to vote. Got annoying having 60 page ballot handbooks full of propositions with pros and cons and rebuttals from each side (I think I may still have the one for the last California election I voted absentee in - 2016 if anyone wants to see the insanity) - then we got the truly stupid: the high speed rail (that we now don't want) and banning circumcisions.

 

Historical stupid ones: Prop 187, Prop 13, and all the ones that tied 50% and more of the state budget to school funding instead of reforming Prop 13. Great ones: term limits and citizen's redistricting.

 

So being the (former) West Coast libertarian Dem Progressive I am, I find it awkward that not even a facet of citizen-organized referenda balloting isn't available here.

 

Does NYS ban all referenda, or just referenda that affects NYS law (ie could petitions lead to initiatives that force the City to do something residents want)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I complained about direct democracy for all the years I was able to vote. Got annoying having 60 page ballot handbooks full of propositions with pros and cons and rebuttals from each side (I think I may still have the one for the last California election I voted absentee in - 2016 if anyone wants to see the insanity) - then we got the truly stupid: the high speed rail (that we now don't want) and banning circumcisions.

 

Historical stupid ones: Prop 187, Prop 13, and all the ones that tied 50% and more of the state budget to school funding instead of reforming Prop 13. Great ones: term limits and citizen's redistricting.

 

So being the (former) West Coast libertarian Dem Progressive I am, I find it awkward that not even a facet of citizen-organized referenda balloting isn't available here.

 

Does NYS ban all referenda, or just referenda that affects NYS law (ie could petitions lead to initiatives that force the City to do something residents want)?

 

It's not that they're banned, per se. There's just no mechanism to have them at all; you'd essentially need the Legislature to pass a law saying a referendum that is binding is happening for X, and then the governor would need to sign off on a law allowing a referendum on X, and then actually hold the referendum.

 

There's a reason we don't do it this way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It IS interstate and the responsibility of the state of New York and the state of Connecticut. Unless an entity like the PANY&NJ can be formed to issue bonds ALL of the taxpayers in both states are on the hook for the cost. Having residences in two states I can attest there are many NIMBYS in the NYC metro area. As a long time Brooklyn ( aka a Long Islander ) resident I find the residents of Nassau, Suffolk, and Richmond counties rank at the top of the NIMBY list. I can remember Governor Rockefeller proposing a crossing at the same time he proposed today's (MTA). I can't imagine how that's gonna go down to someone in Syracuse, Buffalo, or Ithaca today. Prince Andrew has the cojones to propose such a project but the cost compared to Rockefeller's time would be astronomical. Rockefeller should have rammed it through but he had presidential aspirations and needed the Nassau and Suffolk GOP behind him. That's today's history lesson. Carry on.

 

Depends on which routing you take. This is a map of all the proposed ones so far:

 

Long_island1.jpg

 

From what I understand, the current plan is Rye - Oyster Bridge, which technically doesn't cross the state line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

then we got the truly stupid: the high speed rail (that we now don't want)

 

Angelenos and San Franciscans (the Californians with foresight) most certainly want the High Speed Rail, and not without reason. The Luddites who are protesting it are selfish and don't have the well-being of the state in mind beyond their own generations. We need fewer cars on the road and fewer planes in the sky. It doesn't matter whether I live to see the benefits, only that future generations do; I'll happily sacrifice for them, just as previous generations have sacrificed for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Angelenos and San Franciscans (the Californians with foresight) most certainly want the High Speed Rail, and not without reason. The Luddites who are protesting it are selfish and don't have the well-being of the state in mind beyond their own generations. We need fewer cars on the road and fewer planes in the sky. It doesn't matter whether I live to see the benefits, only that future generations do; I'll happily sacrifice for them, just as previous generations have sacrificed for me.

Yeah, whatever.

 

Take it from an actual Californian - me - everyone wants nice things but there's no traffic jam between LA and SF/Sacramento.

 

The bulk of travel between the NorCal and SoCal on roads is big rig. The supermajority of travelers do it by plane since it takes an hour.

 

And the two hour window promised between SF and Sacramento to LA requires making a new pass over the Tehachapi Mountains or tunnel underneath it. Going over it on the 5 is an 8% grade and ~50 miles distance BEFORE getting to Valencia, and then there's another set of mountains to get into the top of LA metro. And there are no rail lines until roughly 15 miles past that - Metrolink and Union Pacific's ROW.

 

It's why trains leaving LA either go to the coast in Santa Barbara or past Sab Bernardino to get around the mountains. Taking the fast way from LA by train requires riding an Amtrak bus to Bakersfield and then getting on the train, or doing the coast ride - which is 3 hours longer than driving it, and 10 hours longer than flying.

 

So unless the Authority plans on being saddled with hundreds of billions in debt to build the tunnel or a new pass - making the fares more expensive than flights (with or without subsidies), it'll never deliver on promises and it'll be another thing we wasted money on instead of doing something useful like building more reservoirs or funding the Forestry Dept fully to better maintain the wilderness so we don't have nonstop fires that unleash a helluva lot more pollution than this train claims to reduce.

 

And I'm a train buff through and through. As much as I'd love it to work, it'll never work like planned. Had they included freight operations with the plan, then maybe there'd be a chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.