Long-Term Closures - Providing Service Around Service Outages

[Jemorie]

i'm not a daily train rider so i always had this question in mind that don't they still put up flags and, at the same time, do track/signal maintenance on that line during nights or weekends or both? Despite the whole signaling system on that line being brand new?

 

if so, well I guess I can't say I'm not surprised since this is a 24/7 subway system and maintenance on the tracks/signals on any line still may have to be done nightly in order to prevent problems from occurring more often as today, even if it's a brand new signaling system on an entire line.

[Wallyhorse]

When long-term closures are proposed, the first thing to look at exactly what customers are affected, and then determine alternative service for them. 

• CPW/Concourse: Riders will almost certainly transfer at Columbus Circle to the , which runs about one block west on 7 Ave. Some riders may use the and transfer at 59 St or 53 St instead.
• 53 St: The existing service has to be modified or suspended. The will need a supplemental service.
• 63 St: The existing service has to be modified or suspended. The connection to the Broadway Line could be used.
• Williamsburg Bridge: The should be taken off 6 Ave, and sent downtown.
• Rutgers St: The probably could be routed onto 8 Ave. A hypothetical transfer between Prince St and Broadway-Lafayette would be well-patronized.
• Manhattan Bridge north side tracks: There's a huge track issue here - the express tracks can't access 8 Ave at 4 St. So unfortunately this section of the line can't be used. At best a shuttle could run between W 4 St and Grand St.

Note that closing 6 Ave results in an IND configuration similar to the 1937 system map (http://nycsubway.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/maps/ind_1937.jpg), so start from there. Utilize Broadway and 63 St at full capacity to keep everything moving.

 

4 services on 8 Ave:

• A: Same as today but local between 145 St and 168 St.
• B: Bedford Park Blvd - WTC: Concourse local, 8 Ave local. Take the late nights. 
• C: Norwood 205 St - Euclid Ave: Concourse Exp, 8 Ave Exp, Brooklyn local. Running the C express in Manhattan removes merges and potential delays at Canal St. Local late nights.
• F: Coney Island - Jamaica 179 St via 8 Ave / 53 St.

4 services on Broadway. Keep the express/bridge services fully separated from the local tracks to maximize capacity.

• N: Coney Island - Ditmars Blvd via Sea Beach and Montague St. Local entirely, with some trains short turning at Whitehall St.
• Q: Coney Island - Jamaica Center. Brighton local, Broadway express (63 St), QB express.
• R: Same as today.
• W: Coney Island - Forest Hills. West End, Broadway Express (63 St), QB local.

The most controversial thing here is to turn SAS into a 4 station T shuttle. However, given that Queens ridership is several times greater, I think 63 St service has to be increased to make up for the loss at 53 St.

That will not sit well with pols and residents on the UES, arguably the most densely populated area in the country,  I took that into account when I did it the way I did with:

 

fully suspended

becoming a 24/7 line between 205 and Euclid

going back to 179 and running its old route

24/7 from 71-Continental to Coney Island

from Metropolitan Avenue to Coney Island 24/7 as the Brighton Local

as a full-time Broadway and 4th Avenue Local via the tunnel from CI to Astroia

becoming a 24/7 Brighton Express between Brighton Beach and 96th Street (from Coney Island evenings, nights and weekends).

becoming 24/7 on its full route

running from Jamaica Center to CI via express on QB, 63rd Street, Broadway and 4th Avenue before going to CI via West End 24/7.

 

This to me works better and keeps pols and residents on the UES happy.

 

[Lawrence St]

I don't know what an "Astroia" is Wallyhorse, but they wouldn't be happy that they're is becoming a full local.

[Jemorie]

I don't know what an "Astroia" is Wallyhorse, but they wouldn't be happy that they're is becoming a full local.

 

Hmm?

 

Almost nobody travels from one end of a line to the other end of a line. The vast majority of Astoria residents don't really care if it's local or express, as long as both local and express serve the city, which is where the vast majority of them are bound for or coming back from. It's only Sea Beach customers who will be annoyed actually since the vast majority of them are bounded for the city or coming back from the city, mostly both of Manhattan's Chinatown and Midtown.

[Jemorie]

**To add, the express and local runs along Broadway doesn't really make much of a difference since by the time the and get to 59th and Lex, Astoria residents are already in the city (Midtown, Chinatown, and Downtown).

[Lawrence St]

Not true, most Astoria residents would rather have a one seat express ride into Manhattan as opposed to just a local.

[Wallyhorse]

I don't know what an "Astroia" is Wallyhorse, but they wouldn't be happy that they're is becoming a full local.

They may not, however, this is keeping switches down to nothing along Broadway.

 

In this format, the and are on the same track all the way between 59th/4th and 60th/Lex.  The only switch of tracks would be the and merging at 63rd/Lex.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Actually most people from Astoria don't stay on the N/W South of 34 St. And the only local station served is 49 St and it speaks for itself. Otherwise, the Broadway express in my eyes are to have more convenient service.

[Lawrence St]

What do you guys think of extending the down to Bay Parkway full time when the shuts down? I've been doing a little survey at the stations about where passengers mainly go during the rush and during other times, this is what I collected so far:

 

70% of people south of Broadway Junction remain on the to go to Manhattan. The other 30% go to the for service to Lower Manhattan. 25% of these people transfer again at Canal St for service into Brooklyn.

 

80% of people between Myrtle-Wycoff and Broadway Junction remain on the for service to midtown Manhattan. 20% transfer to the for service to Upper Manhattan and Queens.

 

I'm still collecting data past Myrtle, but what do you guys think of extending the down to Bay Parkway?

[bobtehpanda]

Extending the to Bay Pkwy for the shutdown is like building the LGA AirTrain for the shutdown. What does one have to do with the other?

[Lawrence St]

Most riders who want to go to Brooklyn via Jamiaca have to transfer at Canal St. Extending the down to Bay Parkway fixes that problem.

[Jemorie]

Most riders who want to go to Brooklyn via Jamiaca have to transfer at Canal St. Extending the down to Bay Parkway fixes that problem.

 

I highly doubt that... 

[Fresh Pond]

Most riders who want to go to Brooklyn via Jamiaca have to transfer at Canal St. Extending the down to Bay Parkway fixes that problem.

..or they just transfer at the junction for the and

[Around the Horn]

Most riders who want to go to Brooklyn via Jamiaca have to transfer at Canal St. Extending the down to Bay Parkway fixes that problem.

 

The from Broadway Junction to Jay-MetroTech or Fulton Street is much, much faster.

[Trainmaster5]

Most riders who want to go to Brooklyn via Jamiaca have to transfer at Canal St. Extending the down to Ba

y Parkway fixes that problem.

Most people south of Broadway Junction transfer to the ,, or at Broadway Junction, IIRC. If I'm on the from Jamaica Center you bail at Broadway Junction. If you're on the from Brownsville or Canarsie the same thing applies. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that anyone headed to south Brooklyn sure ain't riding a roundabout routing unless they're lost. Carry on.

[Wallyhorse]

Most people south of Broadway Junction transfer to the , , or at Broadway Junction, IIRC. If I'm on the from Jamaica Center you bail at Broadway Junction. If you're on the from Brownsville or Canarsie the same thing applies. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that anyone headed to south Brooklyn sure ain't riding a roundabout routing unless they're lost. Carry on.

That I agree.  Only perhaps those closed to the Willy B would take a that runs essentially the old route. 

[Fresh Pond]

Most people south of Broadway Junction transfer to the ,, or at Broadway Junction, IIRC. If I'm on the from Jamaica Center you bail at Broadway Junction. If you're on the from Brownsville or Canarsie the same thing applies. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that anyone headed to south Brooklyn sure ain't riding a roundabout routing unless they're lost. Carry on.

I sure as hell don't. I refuse to go into Manhattan just to come back out.

[Lawrence St]

I do, where I live at 21 St-Queensbridge, I take the to go to Avenue P as opposed as to just taking the to the since I have to transfer again at Church Anyway.

[Jemorie]

Most people south of Broadway Junction transfer to the , , or at Broadway Junction, IIRC. If I'm on the from Jamaica Center you bail at Broadway Junction. If you're on the from Brownsville or Canarsie the same thing applies. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that anyone headed to south Brooklyn sure ain't riding a roundabout routing unless they're lost. Carry on.

 

Facts. The Manhattan-bound and train platform at Broadway Junction is always crowded for this very reason.

[Wallyhorse]

Getting this back to the original intent:

This time, we replace the 6th Avenue line with a closure of the 8th Avenue line between Columbus Circle and High Street (which can be used to terminate trains in Brooklyn.  This is how I would handle it as best possible:

becomes a Brooklyn/Queens-only line between High Street and Far Rockaway full-time

becomes full-time and runs 24/7 from 207th in Manhattan-Brighton Beach (express with the in Manhattan and express in Brooklyn).  Evenings, nights and weekends, line is extended to Coney Island (local along 8th Avenue and CPW late nights).

is suspended entirely.

runs as it does now EXCEPT for no peak-direction express service north of 145th Street.

becomes yellow and runs as it does on QB, BUT via 60th Street and Broadway local to Whitehall Street (rush hours to 9th Avenue in Brooklyn via 4th Avenue as needed due to turning capacity at Whitehall, max 12 TPH, see below and no because of this).  Operates local late nights.

is re-routed in Brooklyn to the Fulton Line and runs 24/7 to Lefferts, replacing the there and becoming the Fulton Local (no late-night Lefferts  ).

operates full-time between 71st-Continental and Coney Island at a max of 12 TPH with full-length trains.

A new train operates at all times between 179th and 53rd Street-Lexington Avenue (max 7 TPH) with a single-track operating between Lexington and 7th Avenues on 53rd.  This operates express on the full route at all times.

is re-routed after 47-50 to run with the B/D to Columbus Circle and become the CPW local to 168th.  This operates all times except late nights.  

Additional trains operate from Astoria as the is replaced by the on Broadway.

Some trains run via 63rd Street as needed at peak hours to accommodate the running via 60th.

That to me is how I would handle this one.

[Lawrence St]

Getting this back to the original intent:

 

This time, we replace the 6th Avenue line with a closure of the 8th Avenue line between Columbus Circle and High Street (which can be used to terminate trains in Brooklyn. This is how I would handle it as best possible:

 

becomes a Brooklyn/Queens-only line between High Street and Far Rockaway full-time

 

becomes full-time and runs 24/7 from 207th in Manhattan-Brighton Beach (express with the in Manhattan and express in Brooklyn). Evenings, nights and weekends, line is extended to Coney Island (local along 8th Avenue and CPW late nights).

 

is suspended entirely.

 

runs as it does now EXCEPT for no peak-direction express service north of 145th Street.

 

becomes yellow and runs as it does on QB, BUT via 60th Street and Broadway local to Whitehall Street (rush hours to 9th Avenue in Brooklyn via 4th Avenue as needed due to turning capacity at Whitehall, max 12 TPH, see below and no because of this). Operates local late nights.

 

is re-routed in Brooklyn to the Fulton Line and runs 24/7 to Lefferts, replacing the there and becoming the Fulton Local (no late-night Lefferts ).

 

operates full-time between 71st-Continental and Coney Island at a max of 12 TPH with full-length trains.

 

A new train operates at all times between 179th and 53rd Street-Lexington Avenue (max 7 TPH) with a single-track operating between Lexington and 7th Avenues on 53rd. This operates express on the full route at all times.

 

is re-routed after 47-50 to run with the B/D to Columbus Circle and become the CPW local to 168th. This operates all times except late nights.

 

Additional trains operate from Astoria as the is replaced by the on Broadway.

 

Some trains run via 63rd Street as needed at peak hours to accommodate the running via 60th.

 

That to me is how I would handle this one.

My head X.X

[CenSin]

My head X.X

The good plan he had before was bait to get us to read this one.

[Wallyhorse]

The good plan he had before was bait to get us to read this one.

Not really.

 

This was more to get this back on track.

[RR503]

Dont want to quote the entire thing but here are the issues/changes I see:

 

The can't access CPW from the local tracks and you can't cram them on the exps with all the and s you plan.

 

Also, why not route the to Chambers, the over 53rd and down 6 to Fulton and on to the Rockaways to accompany the ? Gets rid of a TON of weirdness...

[CenSin]

If the 8 Avenue Line is out from 50 Street to High Street:

• trains would only run to Jay Street–MetroTech from Queens entirely local. That pretty much covers the Brooklyn and southeastern Queens ends of the 8 Avenue routes.
• The (becoming an orange route) from Queens would run to the 2 Avenue and Church Avenue, alternating so that trains are not held up at Broadway–Lafayette Street. Brooklyn-bound trains would run express between Jay Street–MetroTech and Church Avenue.
• trains would be suspended as it cannot serve any meaningful purpose as a separate route from the other Central Park West routes.
• trains would run as normal to 145 Street and then continue to Inwood–207 Street, replacing the and there. It would be a 24/7 route, but terminate at 125 Street at night.
• trains would run as normal, but run local along Central Park West at night.
• trains would run as normal.
• trains would run their old route (more or less) from Middle Village–Metropolitan Avenue to 9 Avenue. It would serve to connect the with the Fulton Street hub via the transfer at Jay Street–MetroTech. Weekend and night service would remain the same as it is now.
• The is extended to 71 Avenue–Forest Hills during weekday daytime.
• trains run express on weekends.
• Alternating trains would continue to Kings Highway to connect Jay Street–MetroTech to Whitehall Street–South Ferry. Trains would run on weekends as well.

Number of routes impacted by deliberate changes: 9 if you count any changes, only 4 during weekday daytime if route extensions are not counted (since they don’t take away service from any normally served stations).

 

 

And now… someone try to reroute long-term for a Broadway shutdown from Lexington Avenue/59 Street (including the station) to Court Street. The Broadway side of the Manhattan Bridge is also out of service as are the 63 Street tracks to Broadway. (It would be pointless to run the there anyway since there are no trains to transfer at 57 Street–7 Avenue.)