Interested Rider

Allan (Brooklyn Bus) stated that the traffic on Avenue Z is not that bad near the station, Really as every time I take the B/36 to the Brighton Line Station, we seem to get stuck in traffic on Avenue Z from the Ocean Avenue to the station segment as I carefully delineated the reasons why in that short segment. It seems that Brooklyn Bus does not have to wait on Avenue Z under the trestle when three different buses try to board passengers (4,36 and 49) without tying up traffic on Avenue Z. I think he forgot that his routing of the B/36 in November 1978 to stop under the trestle on Avenue Z (I am not referring to the 1978 change only the location of the stop) sent the B/36 on the slippery slope that took 20 years to recover from even though he had it routed via Sheepshead Bay Road six months later. The routing continued until Councilman Chaim Deutsch and his friends in the taxi industry (a man who you praised in the previous post on this thread) destroyed what we in my community worked so hard to change for the better.A political note as Chaim Deutsch would not have been able to run for that seat if the former Council speaker did not want to get even with Lou Fielder for losing the congressional race to Republican Bob Turner in 2012 which Carlos Danger A/K/A Anthony Weiner was forced to resign from earlier Let me state quite emphatically that no one in the community where I live wants the B/44 SBS to be extended to Manhattan Beach now or in the future. In addition there are many on this forum who know the B/44 local and SBS route that have either made or are making constructive suggestions to improve the service and none of them have had anything nice to say about the B/44 SBS going to his Manhattan Beach. Brooklyn Bus' constant refrain about 6 riders going to Knapp Street reminds me of a book that i have been searching for and I have not been able to find titled "How to lie with statistics" which is applicable to his use of the 6 people as the ends justify the means. As far as his work for the MTA in Operations Planning, that is in the past as he retired 14 years ago. It means one thing as he is out of the agency and no one in the MTA (or anyone else) has to listen to him as he is just one person among the 8 million New York City residents .hat have the right to voice an opinion which he is doing on the forum and I can express my opposition to his view on the subject. It is the same thing with his views on Andy Byford, who I got to know from the Toronto Star and the Toronto Transit Commission. I have stated numerous times that Mr. Byford should be cut some slack as compared with many of this predecessors who were just there to fill the job. Mr. Byford is fighting an entrenched bureaucracy that will fight tooth and nail ty as to protect their turf as he tries to help improve the service slowly one small step at a time.

I know about the problems of the B/49 as I have been riding it off and on for 40 years so the present problems are nothing new to me. It is the reason that when I go to Avenue M to go shopping on a weekly basis, I would rather struggle up and down the stairs on the Brighton Line with all of its unexpected surprises than to take the B/49. Two years ago, I had to take a class to work for the Board of Elections at PS 195 in Manhattan Beach and the B/49 never showed up leaving the beach. I finally got fed up and took the B/1 which got stuck under the elevated so it took forever to reach Ocean Parkway where I finally took the B/36 home. As far as service to the college especially during the summer, it is a hit and miss thing and it has to do with travel to and from the beach. When the MTA prepares its summer schedule for the B/1 and the B/49, the MTA cannot correctly predict the weather which will determine how many buses are needed beyond the regular schedule and, therein lies the problem as clear warm weather will have more riders and rainy weather will have empty buses. So the reality is that when the MTA prepares a schedule for the summer,.which may or may not work every day . When the original B/1 was running from 25th Avenue (I am referring to prior to 1978) the B/1 ran every 10 minutes to the beach during the summer (it was 20 minutes during the rest of the ,year), so there was regular service to and from the beach. The route today is quite different as compared to that time as the route is longer and goes under two separate elevated structures, 86th Street and Brighton Beach Avenue where the bus can get stuck for long periods of time. On routes such as this schedules go out the window as one truck, one long light or one truck that cannot fit under the elevated structure will delay the bus and everything goes out the window. This is why I am thankful, I retired in September 2010 or right after the B/1 and the B/64 changed terminals in Bay Ridge as with the B/64 there was predictability with the schedules and as soon as the B/1 took over, I had to add an additional 45 minutes to the 2 1/2 hour one way trip. Do you or the MTA want to go back to 2010 or 1978, I doubt it, so you learn to accept it . There is a reason that the MTA will just listen to your complaints and do nothing as what can they do as the buses are subject to the whims or the daily traffic patterns which can change in a New York minute. The B/44 local and SBS is a different story as it does not have the problems of either B/1 or B/49 and therefore should not be burdened with those problems by extending it to Manhattan Beach. For bus routes to work, there needs to be more traffic enforcement on a regular basis that crack down on the the double parkers and those that block traffic. This along with keeping bus routes at workable length, will improve service.

I am very well aware of the problems with the B/36 especially during rush hours and even during the weekday midday period where it is standing room only south of Avenue Z. How many times have I looked out the window on a weekday morning at about 7:30 AM and I see 15 or more riders waiting for a B/36, it is a common occurrence. Many years ago, there was shuttle service from Nostrand Avenue and Avenue U to the Brighton Line station during rush hours. This could have been one alternative but now thanks to the Councilman and the now pigeon poop plaza, it cannot be done, The problem with the B/36 is two fold with first being Avenue Z and the second being an MTA practice of having the drivers spend the first part o their day on one route and the second half on the B/36. As far as Avenue Z is concerned, there is nothing that can be done as there is a school,a post office,a car wash among other things that block up traffic flow on the street. It is just one lane for through traffic in each direction. The street is a nightmare during daytime hours. Even the traffic lane becomes blocked as I saw a truck driver stop his truck under the Brighton Line in the westbound lane and then proceed to make deliveries from the truck all the while leaving one lane for traffic in both directions. What is needed in Sheepshead Bay is traffic enforcement on a fairly regular basis that would reduce the traffic problems on Avenue Z. There is something that gets me mad and it has to do with the penny pinchers that have decided to split drivers runs into the first half on one line and the second half on another line. What this does is it spreads the delays from the first route onto the second route for if the driver is late on the first half, he will be late on the second half. By having the drivers work both halves on the same route (where it is feasible). it cuts down on the delays as if there is a delay, the driver then can be put into place.. The B/36 ran better when the drivers were able to work both halves on the same route and this idea that one half must be spent on one route and the second half on another route hurts ridership on both routes Based on what I see now with the B/36 and the B/44, I have come to the conclusion (and therefore I am in agreement with B35 via Church) that the Kingsborough service proposed by Brooklyn Bus will only make the B/44 SBS service far worse than it already is. The B/44 is a very long route and unlike the B/49 has a lot more businesses on it with more traffic to delay it.It was bought to their attention about the traffic problems at the initial meetings especially from Flatbush Avenue to Kings Highway and nothing has changed. The B/49 can handle the Kingsborough service quite well as not only does it transfer to all the same routes as the B/44 does south of Fulton Street it operates on far wider streets with the exception of the Sheepshead Bay area so it can make up time. Let me add one more point as to the B/49 service to Kingsborough in that service to schools up to and including high schools is fixed or students come in at 8 AM and leave at 4 PM (for example) and it runs from September to June. This gives the MTA flexibility in terms of making a schedule change if it is needed . With a college, students may have one schedule in the fall and one in the spring so if the MTA provided more service during certain hours during the fall semester, the same service may not be needed in the spring semester. Taking it one step further, the same run that carries a full load during fall, may carry ten students during the spring semester so when the schedule is prepared for the fall, using the spring numbers were used the run becomes overcrowded again. This is why I have changed my mind about B/44 SBS KCC service and let the planners go back to improving the B/49 service instead of destroying it.

Once again, Allan has a problem with the B/44 SBS south of Avenue U and offers ideas that indicate that he does not understand my community. As far as the number of riders on the B/44 SBS that is going to Knapp Street, the service is needed as where are you going to turn the B/44 SBS as the bulk of the ridership comes from the Avenue X stop which my apartment window faces so I can observe the 10 -20 riders (and sometimes more) that board at the stop during all hours of the day. In the AM rush some of the school runs that terminate at Avenue X do the Avenue X, Batchelder Street, Avenue Y and Nostrand Avenue then begin the northbound run at the Avenue X stop. While I am not usually a defender of the MTA, the question becomes in light of the present route structure, where are you going to turn the buses and I would like to add something that is usually not taken into consideration as providing service to Knapp Street has other things than the number of riders. Do you know that the nursing home allows MTA drivers to use their bathroom facilities? This is extremely important as it is a health issue. This adds another dimension to providing service to Knapp Street as the only other provider is located just south of Avenue U and is a nursing home. As far as the Kingsborough Community College Service that you mentioned, I bought it up to the MTA at open-house at Brooklyn College and suggested that it be re-routed via Emmons Avenue. i disagree strongly with your proposal to re-route it via Avenue Z and then via the B/49 route to Kingsborough Community College as Avenue Z has become a nightmare in terms of traffic west of Ocean Avenue and if you add the artics, it will be wall to wall gridlock from daybreak to midnight. The B/44 SBS will be another nail in the coffin of the B/36 as headways have already increased at all times during the day and on the weekend. The B/36 now is up to 20 minute headways after 8 PM when it used to be 12 -15 minutes during the week is just one instance and the traffic along Avenue Z has only made it worse. I am one of those who believe give Mr. Byford some slack in terms of doing his job as he has to deal with an entrenched bureaucracy that is reluctant to change. The system cannot have a total change overnight and it has to be done slowly using existing programs in place. He cannot be everywhere and the small step that MTA took in terms of the B/44 SBS stop at Avenue R after 4 years is great. The fact that MTA will be doing a comprehensive study of all Brooklyn Bus Routes ln the future is a major step in changing the routes and I, for one, am happy and hope that Mr. Byford will stay on to help to guide it through to completion.

My thanks to P3F for putting the sources that I cited in correct internet form as if I learn about a change to a bus route, I always like to list the citation so that members could check out the information. Both Kings County Politics and Brooklyn Daily Eagle are good local websites for this information and now I will be checking Queens County Politics to see if the meeting with Mr. Byford has resulted in changes there as well. My Byford is apparently listening as when I read about the schedule changes on the Staten Island Express Routes that were just implemented this week, it indicates to me that he wants the system to work. I can remember when it took months to get a schedule change on a route that should have been done soon after the route was changed.

It seems that Councilman Chaim Deutsch has come out with another press release and this one involves the adding of the stop at Avenue R and Nostrand Avenue for the B/44 Select bus after 4 years of waiting. (Source: Kingscountypolitics.com Brooklyn members on the move. August 24, 2018 and Brooklyndaily eagle.com News). In looking at the headways for the B/44 SBS since it began, it seems that the headways have gone up from 16 minutes to Knapp Street to 20 minutes during the summer pick for Knapp Street during midday. This means that the SBS has lost riders since it started and the end result was a reduction in the number of runs. The B/2 and B/31 combo is even worse as both routes now have 30 minute headways during the non-rush hours or a combined 15 minute headway on the portion from the station to Gerritsen Avenue. It seems that someone who looked at the figures finally woke up and realized that you had to have an SBS stop with a couple of schools in the area with headways like that on B/2 and B/31.

My point is they have (had) no intention of providing service to Kings County Hospital on the northbound B/44 sbs. The change could have been (northbound) via Rogers, Linden Boulevard, New York Avenue, Empire Boulevard and back to Rogers Avenue when the route was first implemented. This would have provided the service to the hospital in the northbound direction but this change did not fit in with their agenda as the northbound route would not be a straight route. How many times h the the TA changed straight routes to provide for detours to schools for example? It is this desire not to deviate once the route is done that is etched in stone by those in the offices that makes me furious as it states quite emphatically to those of us who ride the routes that "that they know everything and we know nothing" so in other words "keep quiet as we will determine what the route will look like". Unfortunately, it is this type of thinking that is prevalent in all levels of government and in the minds of the political elite today. It is only going to get worse in the future.

The MTA has had a fixation about using Rogers Avenue even though as ENY operator correctly pointed out, New York Avenue was (and is) a far better option. New York Avenue has Kings County Hospital which is a major traffic generator as the walk from Rogers Avenue is two long blocks and that is in addition to the additional walking just to reach some of the hospital buildings. I attended the suits presentation at Brooklyn College before the B/44 sbs was placed in operation and wrote and spoke in favor of a stop at the hospital but like everything else with the exception of adding two additional bus stops for the B/44 sbs, my suggestion landed up in the long file.

I am opposed to artics as I agree with EastFlatbush Larry as the so called "geniuses" in the MTA use it to cut service. That is not supposed to be the way it works; however, when the ones who make the decisions are of the mindset (my opinion) that the bigger bus means less buses needed and therefore longer headways (lower labor costs) in their minds., then one can understand their rationale, no matter how flawed it is.This is not supposed to be the way it works as the artics are supposed to provide increased capacity not decreased capacity on a route but when management is looking to cut service and therefore labor costs, the longer bus is "nirvana". To prove my point just compare the B/44 Local and Limited schedule from 2009 and B/44 SBS and local schedule for Summer 2017. This is a route that has lost a lot of runs and along with it, ridership.

So it was signal problems on the Q and B Lines at about 1 PM at Kings Highway that I saw three Q trains on the southbound local track from Avenue U to just beyond Sheepshead Bay? I noted that something was wrong when I saw a southbound Q on the local track not moving just south of Station and the B stopping at the station on the express track (all southbound trains were supposed to be local and northbound trains on the express track due to track work). It must have been fixed as I rode the southbound Q to Sheepshead Bay about an hour later and the train stopped at Avenue U and Neck Road. This was the second week in a row that there were problems on the line on Friday at about the same time. Last week, I was on a northbound B train running local and when we reached Avenue U, the power was shut off for about ten minutes as the riders were informed that there was someone under a train at Kings Highway.

Just a reminder that the 40 foot B/46 SBS have been doing school trips on the B/44 in the afternoon. This is how I got my first look at one of them that came in early June.while waiting at Avenue L and Nostrand Avenue

Did I see 5119 on the B/44 this morning? I looked out the window this morning about 8 AM and i saw 5119 making the turn into Avenue X from Nostrand Avenue and about 2 PM I saw the same bus turning from the B/44 Avenue U southbound stop into Avenue U heading for .Flatbush depot

The assemblyman that retired is now my councilman (Alan Maisel). In 2012, Nostrand Avenue became the dividing line (which it was not prior to the redistricting and Michael Nelson was the councilman) with the east side becoming the district of Alan Meisel and the other side was given to Chaim Deutsch. As far the cops not doing their job when it comes to the vans, put the blame where it belongs at City Hall's doorstep. Quite honestly, does anyone care anymore when it comes to government as would never know there are three other congressional primaries (possibly more that I am not aware of at this time) besides the Grimm v. Donovan race that the media seems to trumpeting at every opportunity. Yvette Clarke, Gregory Meeks and Joe Crowley all have primary challengers with the last one I found out completely by accident. I can just imagine the large turnout that there will be to vote in the congressional districts where there has been virtually no publicity as to voting on Tuesday June 26. I know that I will be hearing and seeing the phonies in the media taking pictures of the poll workers doing nothing but the workers cannot cajole and virtually drag potential voters into the polling places to vote nor just look busy when the media appears with their cameras. We will hear how much money was wasted on this election where the percentage of voters that cast ballots will be either in the high single digits or the very low double digits and then have the same persons that are complaining blame everyone else but themselves for a low turnout.

All quiet on the B/82 front in terms of the local newspaper and magazine coverage down in southern Brooklyn. Chaim Deutsch has found another issue to get himself in front of the cameras as he wants the party boats to be moved to Flatbush Avenue or opposite the Mill Basin Community. Another way to dump his problems on another councilman's (Allan Meisel) district.

Having rode two of their Ulmer Park's best 5103 and 5105 over the last two weeks,, I think that there will be more XD40's heading there even if it is on a temporary basis.

My jaw dropped on this report on the F Line listing just a couple of minutes ago on MTA info.: Emergency work. No F Service Church Avenue to Coney Island 9:30 AM - 3:30 PM. use Shuttle buses instead. Shuttle bus stops are listed. What happened? .

A B/36 71 (not sure about the last two numbers) has a back sign and I saw it on Nostrand Avenue about 1:30 PM today.

Since the B in Brooklyn runs in Chaim Deutsch's councilmanic district, i would not put it past him.

I am continuing to monitor the local papers that are distributed in the community for anything on the B/82 sbs and if there is anything I will post it at the end of the week. Rest assured that if something will happen, good ole Chaim Deutsch will be plastering it all over those local newspapers along with his pals at the NYCDOT pontificating as to how it improves service to the public (yes! In dreamland) As far as this new idea for improving bus service is concerned, count me as a skeptic of anything that is being proposed right now. Until I see what is being suggested, I do not plan to pass judgment on it as I have seen too many of these plans that were proclaimed to be the greatest changes since time immemorial, to be absolute duds The problem remains that the people on top in all agencies like to push things on those on the bottom and then when it does not work, they blame everyone but themselves for its failure. All I have to do is to see the proposal for double decker express buses on Staten Island and then just wait for the first traffic problem on Hylan Boulevard either in New Dorp or at Old Town Road and watch the fun.

The statement from Brooklyn Bus in this post is not what he wrote concerning the Avenue P route. Writing on Sunday April 15, 2018 on page 52, in his response to me, he discusses a route from Gateway to Bay Ridge involving Avenue P but has nothing to do with the B82 sbs. This is not what I have proposed here as it is designed to modify the proposed B/82 sbs and satisfy the concerns of the community by taking the B/82 sbs off of Kings Highway from Ocean Avenue to West 6th Street. It keeps the local with the 40 foot buses running on the street and the existing stops and at the same time for those who want faster service will have on a street that can handle it (Avenue P), This removes the proposed bus lanes , elimination of parking spots and is an alternative to what is being proposed by both the MTA and the NYCDOT.

This community is about business and as I stated in my previous posts, they only get involved when it affects their business or is an issue that directly involves them. They rely on others to do the political work and the only elected official that came out of this community was the late Congressman Stephen Solarz and that is over the past 40 years. I read the local publications and there was virtually nothing written on the B/82 sbs until a monthly magazine that caters to this community in this month's issue that I obtained around the beginning of the Passover holiday had on the cover is "Politicians oppose Kings Highway Bus Route". On page 24, there is a letter to the editor which details whom to write letters and a full page article on page 32 outlining the entire problem along with the loss of 100 parking spaces and the impact upon the entire community. It is unprecedented to see and read this in a publication like this and from my perspective. it is a call to bring in the big guns from both the community and outside the community to have B/82 sbs re-routed from Ocean Avenue to West 6th Street and if not ,have it run the way it is now without the add ons such as bus lanes and artics. Please read my previous post on this subject which looks at how the other sbs services were sold to the public. One of the things that I have learned about progressivism and the administrative state is that the ones in charge feel that they are best to determine what is to be done and the public be damned. Personally, it is my opinion that the Avenue P option was either considered but then discarded or not considered at all when the sbs route was in the planning stages. Neither the MTA nor the NYCDOT were interested in what this community thought as there had already been a considerable loss of parking spaces over many years before sbs was even mentioned. If this was accepted then it is my opinion that NYCDOT figured that they could eliminate more parking spaces and add in other things like bus lanes and in the future articulated buses to run the entire route. Everything in their mind was good to go for July 2018 and the machines were being installed in anticipation of that date. Now the plan has to be changed and once again the city wasted money (most likely federal funds) on something that should have never been started (the machines is what I am referring to d here) until all the communities were on board with it. Government is notorious for wasting money, so this is nothing but a couple of dollars wasted. The ones that came up with the B/82 sbs now have to come up with something that will satisfy this politically powerful community and fast if it is to be implemented either this year or early next year.

What I find in the presentations and the posts both here and in the print and internet postings is that no one understands anything about the community that is in opposition to the B/82 sbs and the power that they have concerning the change. This is a very rich community that is now n a mixture of old time and new time money. Unlike other communities, the community is all about business along with their strong commitment to family and their heritage which is what binds this community together. When you see them on the street, they dress no differently than anyone else except with the head is possibly covered. The community takes education seriously but prefers to remain in the background politically as you will not see them sitting in the front row at the mayor's last inauguration, for example. A read of the newspapers will find a name mentioned once in a while on the business or real estate pages and almost never on the crime pages as the only one that I can remember was "Crazy Eddie" and many of us know what happened to him. This is not like the rest of the city and unless a person did extensive research on the community itself, then one can understand how both the MTA and NYCDOT have gotten into this predicament and what will be the final outcome. The information is there but to find it, one has to go back in New York City history to the 1920's and 1930's when the community settled there and thrived there as well. In fact almost all of their fellow co-religionists know little or nothing about the community except that they are members of the same faith. This is why it is one of those situations where the usual "one size fits all"will not work and everything that the textbook says gets thrown out the proverbial window. So when the B/82 sbs was proposed, the NYCDOT and the MTA heard the usual refrain on do this thing here and that thing there which is commonplace at these meetings on SBS proposals. So they geared up for implementation of something that they were under the false presumption that would have gotten through and the community can live with it. As the date of implementation got closer and the community saw what it would do, they called in their friends to stop it. The call to arms came in all forms from letter writing to all the elected officials in the area and everyone who has benefited from the community's help in the past. As the reports that have come out over the last couple of days in the media indicate, it shows that this community can have something delayed as it have far more power as compared with any other community and that they will use it to change the B/82 sbs so that the impact upon their community will be minimal. As i have stated in my previous posts here, the B/82 SBS will run on Avenue P from Ocean Avenue to West 6th Street as i have indicated for it does not have the problems of Kings Highway as the Avenue P business district is from McDonald Avenue to Ocean Parkway. It is three lanes in each direction and this means that the buses have more flexibility on Avenue P. The community does not care about the traffic on Avenue P, vision zero or anything else as it does not impact upon their businesses on Kings Highway. The community has sent a loud and clear message to both the MTA and NYCDOT as well as the rest of the government agencies that want to do something that when you do anything to our community, you do what we want and not what you want.

Something is in the works involving the B/82 select bus and I think that the answer is coming from this thread. The issue is the B/82 SBS and the disruption that it will cause to the Kings Highway business district. It is when the special bus lanes and elimination of the parking spaces were proposed that the community went ballistic. By taking the B/82 select bus (not the local B/82 bus) off Kings Highway from West 6th Street to Ocean Avenue, it means that the bus lanes are dead and most likely the elimination of the parking spaces for bus stops. as the SBS is rerouted via Avenue P. This takes these two issues off the table. One of the points that the MTA made in justifying the B/82 SBS was this portion of Kings Highway was a major choke point which delays the route. The Avenue P option eliminates that problem and improves running time (another issue). If the artics are confined to the B/82 SBS (just like the B/44 SBS), then another problem is resolved as the B/82 local service remains with 40 footers. As far the running time is concerned, the Avenue P option improves the running time for the SBS service as compared with the limited service which is the same argument that was used to justify the B/44 SBS. To get a look at how the B/82 SBS will be operated just take a look at the B/44 local and SBS are currently operating now. It will be the B/82 SBS via Avenue P between Ocean Avenue and West 6th Street and it will start either in September 2018 or January 2019. The B/82 local will remain as it is now.

I will respond to the points that you raise as follows: In terms of transfer points, there are two routes that are impacted; The B/68 at Coney Island Avenue which is a regular local route and stops at Avenue P. Ocean Avenue going westbound there will be no impact as it is already an existing stop at that location. The eastbound stop could be located closer to East 19th Street on Avenue P so transfer to the B/49 is not impacted. The bus does not miss the B/Q station. What you have here is similar to the B/36 stop at the Sheepshead Bay Station which occurred some time ago and is approximately the same distance to the station. What occurred here is the precedent has been set by the MTA and NYCDOT that bus routes do not have to stop directly at the station and the community knows it. Brooklyn Bus, myself and many others discussed this in a thread involving the B/36 on this forum sometime ago. The routing via Avenue P to West 6th Street does not impact upon the N line as the Station is between West 7th and West 8th Streets and the B/82 will continue to stop at the station. As i stated in a previous post, this is a very politically powerful community and that the meeting with Andy Byford this past Wednesday was the tip off how this community uses it in situations like this. i had the feeling that something was up when I wrote my last two posts based on the report in kingscountypoliticscom as I do not have any recollection of this happening over the many years I have been following transit. it seems that the meeting has already bore fruit as the MTA has agreed to delay the implementation of the B/82 from this July. When i wrote my post about the B/82 being reouted to Avenue P, I had the feeling that someone in the agency underestimated the political power of this community. I remain convinced that the community will get what it wants and if it means that the B/82 will be rerouted to Avenue P between West 6th Street and Ocean Avenue.

I should clarify my comment involving the proposed Avenue P routing for the B/82: While my comment is pure speculation on my part, I feel that there is an element of truth here. Again look at the attendees and the positions that they hold including committee assignments and the fact that they are getting involved before the route is to be changed. Having a meeting with the President, Mr. Byford prior to the implementation is something that is extremely rare is and is an indication of the immense power of the community. Another reason that i raised the issue of Avenue P involves the "artics" as these buses will be running on the route in the future. If the route is to continue to run on Kings Highway where the route continues to run late, then two 60" buses arriving at the same time as compared with 2 40" buses now, means that 120" feet of traffic space is occupied as compared with 80" before the change, It makes the Avenue P option look better as not only is the entire street not tied up, other vehicles can go around the bus if it has to double park at the stop without causing a back up of traffic as the traffic can use the third lane. Kings Highway is the shopping district and the traffic flexibility is not there while the Avenue P the shopping area is much smaller as it runs McDonald Avenue to Ocean Parkway only.