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mrsman

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  1. A 3rd Ave subway with a stop at 60th-63rd would be a huge improvement for transit connections basically connecting all of the Upper East Side and good parts of Queens all in one station. The 3rd Ave platform would provide an in-system transfer between the 59th street station on the (and its connections to the Broadway trains that head to Queens via 60th street) and the 63rd street station that currently provides connections to (63rd street tunnel to Queens and the connection to SAS. The question becomes how to route such a line so that it makes sense, what to connect it to, and how to possibly reroute some of the existing B division trains in the area to limit unnecessary congestion due to interlining. I agree that 3rd Ave is a better corridor than 2nd to provide all of the transfers at 60th-63rd as well as meeting the other nearby crosstown services (namely the and ) that hit this part of Midtown. So I would hve the and trains servicing the upper parts of 2nd Ave. should go west on 125th street and terminate at Broadway providing a 125th street crosstown service. should continue straight north into the Bronx, following Bronx's Third Ave to Fordham Plaza (and providing transfers to and in the Bronx). South of 72nd, and should use 68th street to shift over from 2nd Ave to 3rd Ave and then continue south on 3rd Ave with stops at 60th-63rd, 51st-54th, 42nd, This will provide and with better connections to all subways serving East Midtown. The subway will follow 3rd to 34th (stop at 2nd/34th), and then follow 1st Ave southward to the East Village. will make its way back towards the Grand St station and follow Bowery/St James/Pearl/Water to Hanover Square and then connect with the Montague tunnel to follow existing trackage (4th Ave local and West End line) to Coney Island. will merge with north of Delancey and supplement Culver line service to at least Church Ave. and trains will provide service along the QBL local lines from Forest Hills, connect to the 63rd street tunnel, and thence to the Broadway express. and will continue existing routings in Brooklyn, N to Sea Beach and Q to Brighton local. will service the Astoria line, 60th street tunnel, and Broadway local trains. [Some trains may originate/terminate at Queensboro Plaza (uitlizing the middle Astoria track for turning) and/or Whitehall to increase service in Manhattan.] Trains will continue into Brooklyn following the 4th Ave local and the West End line to Bay Parkway (and serviced by Coney Island Yard). are largely the same, except that trains in Brooklyn will utilize a switch (to be added) to shift from the 4th Ave express to the 4th Ave local tracks south of 36th street. and terminate in Bay Ridge. The Bay Ridge trains will be service by the Concourse Yard. and are largely the same in Queens. will follow 53rd street tunnel to 6th Ave local and continue to Culver. will originate at 57th/6th and provide service on the 6th Ave local and to the Myrtle Ave line. will terminate at WTC. From the perspective of portals, this better utilizes trackage to service trains to the CBD. All B division East River tunnels are better utilized. Northern portals: CPW express: CPW local: SAS: 53rd: 60th: 63rd: Trunk lines: 3rd Ave: TU; Broadway: NQ express, R local; 6th Ave: BD express, FM local; 8th Ave: A express, CE local Southern portals: Manhattan Bridge: B-D-N-Q Williamsburg Bridge: M-J-Z Montague Tunnel: R-T Rutgers Tunnel: F-U Cranberry Tunnel: A-C
  2. Even better idea! If there was a way to rebuild the Broadway BMT to allow the locals to reach 2nd Ave and allowing the expresses to reach 60th street, without interfering with each other, much of the current problem of the line can be resolved. Astoria - 60th - Broadway express - Brighton 71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway express - Sea Beach SAS - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge The SAS line would need to be extended to reach CPW with track connections to allow for yard access to the Concourse Yard.
  3. In other words, 96th - Broadway express - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - 9th Ave stop on West End line (and access to CI Yard as needed) 71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Whitehall Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge This seems very good way of providing the split service while keeping the Broadway BMT moving.
  4. ^^^^^ Another possibility would maintain the switch from local to express near Herald Square, that I loathe, but streamlines the service a little bit to make the merges easier. Jamaica Center - Broadway Junction - directional AM/PM express between Bwy Jct and Marcy - Nassau - Broad St. So it will be a directional express to Manhattan from 6 am - 12 noon, away from Manhattan 1 pm - 8 pm, and local in the reverse direction. Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge No changes No changes Astoria - 60th - Broadway local/express* - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach 71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - West End line to 9th Ave Eliminated * Query whether it would be better to have the merge between local and express occurring at 34th or just south of Prince. The movement is always disruptive, but if the movement occurred at Prince, it would provide more service to the local stations on the Broadway BMT.
  5. This idea deserves a comment. I think there is some merit to exploring service, but it does seem like Canal may not be the best place for a terminal. What about rearranging Broadway-Brooklyn service to accommodate Bay Ridge? Make the service as part of the : Rush hour and mid-day service: Jamaica Center - Broadway Junction - directional AM/PM express between Bwy Jct and Marcy - Nassau - Broad St. So it will be a directional express to Manhattan from 6 am - 12 noon, away from Manhattan 1 pm - 8 pm, and local in the reverse direction. Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge No changes No changes 96th/2nd - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach 71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Whitehall Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - West End line to 9th Ave - (CI Yard Access).
  6. Agreed. Too much mixing without much benefit. Run a consistent and frequent local service until January.
  7. I can't understand why the subway surfing is continuing. Sheesh!
  8. ^^^^^ If the "Canal flip" were implemented, the above can be handled even better. "Canal flip" basically routes the Broadway express to Montague tunnel and Broadway local to the Manhattan Bridge. It is not a small project, but it has been looked at as a way to provide express service from SAS to the Broadway express to Lower Manhattan. All of the above is the same, except for: 125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - Manhattan Bridge - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach 71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local
  9. Thanks. THe idea presented was meant to preserve the lines in Brooklyn running as they do now, especially the pre-SAS phase 3 plan. I am a proponent of more deinterlining, including deinterlining the DeKalb junction, but that is not strictly necessary to get better Broadway service now. My idea is simply to reroute to 96th, to avoid the merging along the Broadway BMT and then doing my best within existing system constraints to preserve Astoria service and QBL local service. One key problem is that (i believe) only 21 TPH can run through the lower Manhattan portion of the Broadway local (due to the tight turns) so conceivably, once can run 14 TPH trains to preserve existing frequencies to Astoria and improve frequencies along 4th Ave local. This means 7 TPH for the serving as the qBL- Broadway link. As Forest Hills is also limited to 20 or 21 TPH, this leaves the balance of QBL local service to be served by 14 TPH service. A slight decrease in QBL local - Broadway trains that is met with a slight increase in QBL local - 6th Ave trains to maintain the frequency along QBL local route. A lot more changes, of course, for the SAS era, but I thought it was very important to somehow produce more trains on the SAS below 63rd, which means trains coming from Queens, so the can no longer run to 96th, allowing for all the other changes as noted. Of course, on top of everything we can have both and serve Brighton [leaving and to 4th Ave] or vice versa, thereby eliminating the DeKalb bottleneck, but that is not strictly necesssary for the discussion. I do agree that the deinterlining would allow for even more trains to flow on hte Broadway express and 6th Ave express lines. The rework is done to accommodate more service on SAS. Given the design of the exiting SAS above 63rd, the only way that a full service south of 63rd can be accomplished would be if at least one of the QBL services served SAS. Here is another alternative, but I feel is somewhat worse, since it has more interlining than my earlier proposal: 125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Brighton local 125th - SAS - Hanover Sq Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd - 8th Ave local - WTC 179th Street - QBL express - 53rd - 6th Ave local - Culver Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local/express- 4 Ave express - Sea Beach eliminated 57/6Av - 6 Av local - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle - Metropolitan Ave 71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge 71/Continental - QBL local - 63rd - SAS - Hanover Sq
  10. I definitely see as a short term measure, improvements in deinterlining Broadway would be very helpful. A slight adjustment to the service pattersn could produce the following: 96/2 Av - Broadway Express - Brighton local [current pattern] 96/2 Av - Broadway Express - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach 71/Continental - QBL local - 60th st - Broadway local - Whitehall Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge Then, as we explore the idea of SAS Phase three and the need to accommodate more trains. SAS connections to Queens are absolutely essential to make sure that full capacity is used in the new subway 125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Brighton local 125th - SAS - Hanover Sq Jamaica Center - QBL express - 63rd - SAS south of 63rd - Hanover Sq 179th Street - QBL express - 63rd - Broadway Express - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge eliminated 57/6Av - 6 Av local - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle - Metropolitan Ave 71/Continental - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - WTC 71/Continental - QBL local - 53rd - 6th Ave local - Culver So what is going on? Utilizing the expansion of the SAS subway south of 63rd as a relief valve for teh QBL in order to ensure that the capacity of SAS is fully utilized, QBL is deinterlined to maximize the number of trains, and maintain a decent level of deinterlinign on Broadway as well. So route all QBL expresses to 63rd and all QBL locals to 53rd. 53rd has the connections to 8th Ave and 6th Ave which can service the and trains. trains will still have access to 6th Ave but will no longer access 6th Ave and will terminate at 57th/6th and that will be set up as a terminal in normal service. THe QBL expresses will be connected to 63rd which will have access to both Broadway and SAS. [There is also access to 6th Ave but it won't be used. Broadway needs more service to accommodate more traffic to Brighton and Sea Beach.] Conceptually, this means that Upper East Side and QBL express both have access to SAS and Broadway express. Technically, goes directly on SAS, goes directly on 63rd, and and trains will be used as go betweens between the two corridors. As trains leave upper SAS to go to 63rd, it leaves some capacity for trains to go from Queens to lower SAS and vice versa. [The geometry is a little difficult, but it is functionally similar to the existing BDNQ interactions north of DeKalb. BD from 6th and NQ from Broadway carefully intermingle to lead to BQ to Brighton adn DN to 4th Ave.] And why should the QBL local go to 53rd and the express to 63rd? The other way around is propbaly easier to understand as we are continuing the basic historic patterns of E and F trains as expresses. But I think there is a great value in allowing the local QBL stations to have access to Long Island City, so they need to maintain the connection to 53rd. This forces E and F to be QBL locals, and the other trains (leading to Broadway and SAS) as expresses. So and will emanate from 125th Street (and northern extensions of SAS). will service QBL, the first two express, the last two local. QBL will have a direct train to every BMT/IND Manhattan trunk line. will be an isloated deinterlined local line from Astoria to Bay Ridge, where out of service trains will merge with the N line to reach the Coney Island Yards as necessary. will still provide the popular connection between Williamsurg Bridge and midtown on 6th Ave, but will not longer continue into the QBL line.
  11. I am happy to present my latest plan that is meant to separate different trains at the worst merger points, but still keeping many of the familiar travel patterns available. Sorry, no maps, but hopefully, this can lead to a fruitful discussion. Here is the regular daytime and rush hour services for trains on 8th Ave, 6th Ave, and Broadway. 168th St Washington Heights - CPW/8th Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Rutgers Tunnel- Culver line Bedford Park Blvd - Concourse/CPW/8th Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle Ave line to Metropolitan Ave. [During non-rush hours, service starts at 145th Street.] Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express - Far Rockaway 179 St - Hillside/QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express - Lefferts 179 St - Hillside local - QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton local - Euclid The above service pattern separates 8th Ave trains from each other. The three express services are fully deinterlined, every one of those trains runs identically between Forest Hills and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. This allows for maximum throughput on two of the busiest sections of track, QBL express and the Fulton line in Brooklyn. All 8th Ave trains service the 50th street station. The 8th Ave locals still partially interline with the 6th Ave trains in upper Manhattan and with either or trains in Brooklyn. 207 St - CPW/6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton express 205 St - Concourse line (express in rush hour) - CPW/6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local 96 St - 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach 96 St - 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - West End The above service pattern keeps the 6th Ave express trains completely separate from other trains between 145th St and Coney Island. It maintains that both the Inwood branch and the Concourse branch each have an express and a local service down CPW. While it does restrict all CPW expresses to 6th and all CPW locals to 8th, this allows for a greater amount of trains to flow through Columbus Circle and at CC, there is the ability to make a cross platform transfer, if needed. The Broadway express trains are fully separated from other train services. The service pattern also fully separates 6th and Broadway trains at DeKalb. While there is no easy transfer between 6th-Brighton and Broadway-4th trains, most passengers won't need to transfer since the two sets of trains are only an avenue apart in all of Midtown. Any 4th Ave passenger needing the Upper West side or any Brighton passenger needing the Upper East Side could transfer at Herald Square. Forest Hills - QBL local - 63rd tunnel - 6th Ave local - W4 switches - WTC Astoria - 60th tunnel - Broadway local - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge Forest Hills - QBL local - 60th tunnel - Broadway local - Whitehall and provide the local counterpart for 6th Ave and Broadway trains. provides a hybrid service supplementing the in Queens and the in Manhattan. is necessary to provide QBL local riders with access to Queens Plaza (and Long Island City) and direct access to Broadway. These three tains do interline with each other, but with no other trains in the system. It allows for partial interlining here, in order to keep the express trains mostly separated. The W4 switches, as utilized, completely separate 8th Ave and 6th Ave locals from each other, despite the new service pattern. The reason I utilize it is becuase it will allow for more service given the hybrid trains. There would be a lot less Culver and Myrtle if and had to share Forest Hills with trains, then if I connect Culver and Myrtle service to the and which have the CPW local tracks to themselves. As planned, there is only one 6th Ave local service so this service can be easily turned at WTC. Spring, 14th/6th, 23rd/6th, 57th/6th, Roosevelt Island, and 21st-Queensbridge are only served by one train service. With regard to a rush hour service pattern, I basically envision that and will each run at 14 TPH and W will run at 7 TPH. and should run at the same frequency so that the can more easily slide into service. It also provides 2 s (or s) for every . and will utilize the Jamaica Yard and will utilize Coney Island Yard, by riding out of service trains on the Sea Beach or West End lines. trains are suspended in favor of the new , , , trains run in their current pattern.
  12. The benefit of bringing back brown K type service would be to allow better usage of the express tracks between Myrtle station and Broadway Junction. From Broadway Jucntion, the fastest potential trip to midtown would involve using those express tracks on a train that then heads to 6th Ave. would be slower than this service, because it has too many stops. would be slower because it takes a longer trip via the Financial District. Now the number of trains that can run along this stretch of track is limited, so there are defiinitely concerns about dividing up the service in three ways, but could we potentially consider the following: Orange J Jamaica - serving all stops between Jamaica and Broadway Junction - rush hour express between BJ and Manhattan - 6th Ave local - QBL local to Forest Hills Brown K: Atlantic - local stops along Broadway Brooklyn - Chambers (rush hour only) Brown M: Metropolitan - local stops along Broadway Brooklyn - Broad Street
  13. There are very clear benefits to having the short-turn at Atlantic, namely the ability to run more trains on . Of course, somthing has to be done to 8th Ave to make sure that all of those trains can be turned back as well.
  14. And cost as well, with a higher LIRR fare, no free bus transfer. The value of a commuter rail stop within subway territory is generally to either facilitate reverse commuting from those areas to the suburbs or to capture commuters going from suburbs to city but not all the way to Manhattan. So anyone in Forest Hills (or who could easily reach Forest Hills via subway and bus) could reverse commute to a transit-accessible job in LI by using the station. Granted, the majority of LIRR passengers are not doing this, but if the system can provide these people adequate service, then it is better that they commute by transit instead of drive. Whether Forest Hills is needed for this purpose when Jamaica already exists is another question, but I believe it is, since anyone coming from a local QBL stop could utilize Forest Hills without the need to transfer to to Jamaica, assuming that the train they need stops at Forest Hills. Likewise, suburban commuters who work near a QBL subway stop in Queens may prefer to take their train to Forest Hills and transfer to the subway as opposed to backtracking from Penn or driving. The above groups are far more likely to use the LIRR stop than Forest Hills-Manhattan commuters in the normal direction, becasue the subway is that much easier to use and more convenient. At Kew Gardens, while the same arguments can be made, there are certainly some folks who will use it as a normal stop. Kew Gardens is a little further from the subway - it is a considerable walk. People who live in the immediate neighborhood of LIRR may prefer to use it to commute rather than walk or take the bus to the station.
  15. The idea of making the Jamaica Center train a Hillside local (i,e. stopping at Briarwood and 75th Ave) is to accommodate the respectfully heavy ridership at Briarwood. While not as much of a bus terminal as Parsons/Archer, Briarwood is a significant bus to subway transfer point for the Q44 and Q20 buses on Main Street. Also, it does make it somewhat easier In some ways, I hope that more buses from Eastern Queens will be relocated to service 179th as opposed to Parsons/Archer. 179th is almost a whole mile further east and for those who are making the transfer, it would be a lot quicker trip overall, even if a bus has to divert from Jamaica Ave to Hillside Ave. Granted, 179th borders a residential area who may not be thrilled with more buses stopping in front of their station, but it would be more helpful to riders overall. And if the subway service at 179th were a significant deal faster than other subways, it could justify a bus reroute to that station or to Parsons/Hillside, which would be another Hillside express station. The main reason for heavy service through the Cranberry tunnel and the Fulton corridor is more for the heavily branched nature of the Fulton terminals than the heavy travel along the corridor itself. Fulton is the only corridor that current service divides up to three separate terminals, and with some operational improvements and service expansion could potentially serve up to five separate terminals. To provide each of the three terminals (as well as each service segment) with a train minimum every 6 minutes would require 10 TPH on each branch and 30 TPH overall. The three service segments are: a) local stations between Hoyt and Euclid, b) three stations on the Lefferts branch, and c) Broad Channel and all stations leading to Far Rockaway, directly and those transferring from the Rockaway Park shuttle. {If we were to expand the serive to four branches, meaning that Rockaway Park is regularly served by its own branch during rush hours, than each of the four service segments (locals to Euclid, Lefferts branch, Far Rockaway, Rockaway Park) would see 7.5 TPH or a train mimimum every 8 minutes. And if we were to expand to five branches serving my pipe dream of a direct connection from the Fulton express to JFK airport, than each branch would only get 6 TPH or a train every 10 minutes. Five branches is really unfeasible, even if the combined service were 30 TPH, so even if a direct subway link were established to JFK, I envision that at least one of the other services would remain a shuttle or that the Euclid locals would combine with the Lefferts service or that some type of Queenslink service would serve the Rockaways with a transfer to the Lefferts train at the Rockaway Blvd station. } In any event, the only way to adequate provide service (not capacity) to three separate sets of stations (as in the current service plan) would require maximizing the number of trains servicing Fulton. IMO, this is why many people's proposals provide somthing along the lines of having all Cranberry tunnel trains servicing the Fulton express and providing some kind of unique tunnel connection for the Fulton local to Lower Manhattan. [The most popular of these seems to be Fulton express divided betweeen Rockaway and Lefferts with service from Montague tunnel connecting to Court street to the Fulton local or an tunnel connecting WTC via new tunnel under the river to Court street.] I don't think that a new tunnel's cost and disruption is justified before we try a service rearrangement to maximize the exisiting throughput through the Cranberry tunnel, which means sending 30 TPH there. For the most part, my plan doesn't really change Fulton service at all. Today's service divides Cranberry tunnel trains to three terminals: locals to Euclid, expresses to Lefferts, and expresses to Far Rockaway. I keep this service pattern, but increase the overall number of trains to decrease watining time along the branches. The other change, of course happens on the northern end as the 8th Ave expresses head to Queens instead of Columbus Circle and CPW. There is also no direct serivce to Spring or 23rd stations under my plan, but those are easily reachable with a cross platform transfer.
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