East New York

True. I just don’t see them deviating away from what we have now unless they modified platforms. MTA is notorious for NOT liking plug-type doors of any kind on buses, subways or trains for a few reason. One is ease of maintenance, and self redundancy if the door fails. The particular side that fails will just remain closed. It’s parts are also commons with all NTT’s including the R211 and R262’s when it comes to the mechanics, thus saving on maintenance costs and parts stock drastically. The TA’s main concern is moving more passengers faster. The windows viewing range isn’t enough of a priority to invest in a whole new door design at this time, that would still have to be researched, developed, and tested.

I understand exactly what they are saying, and I agree they need new buses. All they had to do was ask the MTA, or read NYCTF. They went about it all wrong. As a borough, they have the youngest fleet average anyway. They just want brand new pretty blue buses. Lol It’s not SBS at all if you ask me. In this case it stands for “Super-Limited Bus Service” in my eyes lol. They need to build MVM’s and actually speed up the line. Off topic in this case is ok, because they (the SI polititions) are beating a dead horse anyway. Edit: XD40’s all have ISL/Allison That was an error. The XN40’s and 60’s have the ISLG/ZF set-up. Now getting into these power trains. The difference is because of the set-up, and the weight. The Orion VII E10’s (official Daimler designation) 7000-7089 are powered by (save the EPA upgrades) the same Cummins ISL9/ZF Ecomat as LFS’ 8015-8754 The E10 “3G’s” weigh about 2,000 lbs more than the Nova, thus requiring the engine and transmission to be tuned for more power at take-off. The shift scheduling, as well as torque tuning are different. Some of the Nova’s have been tuned, and take off a but faster than others. The only thing I don’t like about the LFS is this design. I feel like the structure should stay the same because its solid, and based directly off the RTS modular technology. However, I think the front needs a facelift, and the wheelbase needs to be expanded just a touch. The new windows will hopefully address the visibility issue, but a full redesign would address than just that.

Same bus as an NG on the exterior, save some body panels and the doors. Same bus under the hood as the XD40’s and LFS’s. They are actually quite different. The only common parts are most of the exterior panels and some interior components. They have different engines, drivetrains, components, parts, breaks, suspensions, exhausts, power supplies, HVAC systems and more. They don’t have a different fuel system........ That’s one of the very few things that are exactly the same lol. Yes they do have the same power rain as I was mentioning to everyone above. Don’t forget Flatbush will have 15-16 buses free when artics are implemented on the B46+. MTA has been making the fleet uniform since 2011. Thats why we have things assigned the way that we do. There is no point in seeing 3g’s To MV. If that was the case they would be getting new ones now. When the original LFS assignments came down MV was included. I mentioned that this was not really necessary seeing as hybrids will start arriving next year. However, seeing as SI is going all LFS, it’s inevitiable the 3G’s leave at some point anyway. Where they go really doesn’t matter. They can essentially go to any depot in the city except Gleason. Where have you been my man? These updates have been on the first page for at least a year, and discussed regularly. *Yukon is getting brand new LFS for the S79. *Hale is getting 51 brand new XD60’s for the M15+ . *Flatbush is getting 47 brand new XD60’s for the B44+, and 10 for the B46+. * EN will get artics as soon the depot is Artic ready, and MTA Bus get theirs, and returns the loaners they have now. *We don’t need to unwrap any LFSA’s because 36 brand new ones are on the way to Quill, and MTA Bus loaners still have to come back. Both of which will retire the D60’s. *Yukon will not get artics anytime soon. They are not ready for them, have not trained on them, and logistically it would be a waste of time and money right now. The S79 is not a true SBS, so dwell times would increase, and efficiency would decrease at this stage. The first ever major testing of artics will begin planning on the Island next year. An XE60 will head out there for duty cycle testing. *SI will not be getting hybrids. Only diesels for now and the next major order will be electric. Some of the 45 AEB’s will likely end up out in SI anyway. However, they could essentially use XDE40’s if they are Allison equipped. That however won’t happen anyway. All diesels until new electric buses arrive for now. *The 7000’s will likely head out of the island one day. That day may be sooner rather than later as the NG’s start to leave the island, and will no longer share common parts (other than some engine parts) with the LFS’s which dominate the island. They will get new hybrids in 2020/2021. The will address the stop-and-go issue, but they still won’t be getting any of them. Hybrid days on the island were short lived, and now are numbered seeing as the LFS is on the horizon pending delivery any day now actually. How exactly is diesel fuel dead to them when every bus they have now is fueled by diesel?? It has been mentioned several times that the displaced NG’s from SI will head to depots like MV.

Plug-type doors would only work here if the platforms were modified. It’s not worth the cost. R211 prelim assignments are and to start off. Everything else is pending. and are said to be in the planning as well. Logistics and final assignments could change based on the amount of options that are T models. and however are the originally planned lines, and this hasn’t changed yet. Only major changes are the accelerated delivery schedule that puts the first 10-car train here next summer, and now puts SIR last for delivery.

To a further extent, if you all want an interesting, and very entertaining view into how things play out, go back to the first page of a thread and start reading. Thanks to the R179 troubles, which prompted the acelleration of the R211 program, @Around the Horn ‘s post ended up being a lot closer than I expected, or even the MTA planned. 😎 #FridayFlashback Design 2017, Award 2018, Delivery 2020/2021

For those that love all the technical stuff such as myself, here is the entire unabridged version of the R34211 Contract. 😎 Complete R34211 (R211) Contract Details

Correct. Correct. I don’t think you read his post thoroughly.

I should have also worded that different. They will be upgraded to R188 Standard, however the designation will be whatever the last 3 numbers of the contract which I have not looked at yet. Times have also changes and MTA has changes plans twice. We are now at upgrading the whole fleet. Not just the 142A,s. In addition, what you are saying was partly addressed by MTA years ago, it just wasn’t public knowledge. They actually did plan it all from the beginning. They were always looking into upgrading all the 142A’s when the concept for the 188 came into the fold. I just never said anything about it until it was confirmed just under a year ago. After getting certain reactions at times, some things just shouldn’t be announced until details are available. The addition of 142’s as well is new information I was actually able to confirm in December, but had not yet decided how I would post on it. So I actually thank you for speeding things up because this will be one of the major developments of 2019 and 2020. MTA is known for keeping trains for at least 4 decades. They have decided that with the current data, it makes more sense to GOH the entire fleet and bring it up to CBTC standard. This extends the life of the train, and ensures that when all the R62/62A’s are retired the entire system will be online or ready to go online.

Fun, and little known fact of the day..... The thing is, trains are actually not designated by the MTA in a way that most people think. They actually get their names based solely on the last 3 digits of the contract. This is how I always knew what the train number was going to be when people used to make guesses at it all the time. People would always ask me how did I guess it right. Well, my secret is I never had to guess at all. It’s always been in plain sight years before the train comes out lol. Many rail buffs know this now, but the vast majority of people do not. Examples 142/142a contract # R34142 and R34142A R211 is R34211 R262 is R34262

Yep. It’s just basically redesignated.

Thank you! A lot of people don’t understand that we do this all for you guys. When I was young there was no place to go for even 10% of the information we provide. In the process, it has proven without the shadow of a doubt to improve transit over all. We still have a long way to go, but together we can get it done.

No, and I just spit the discussion out of the R188 thread so you guys can catch up on that.

Since this program is expanding, and will soon be public record, I have decided to split this discussion off from the R188 thread, and create an all new one. A major reason for this is, effective December 2018, MTA has decided to seek out qualified vendors with knowledge on train upgrades to begin the research process for the upgrade of the entire fleet of R142 and R142A cars. These cars will be R188 standard, however will not have the designation as they are only 10 car trains. Full report and updates coming in short order.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dante aka East New York. No I do not work for MTA. I own a consulting firm and work WITH the MTA. I have also worked with every major component supplier as well consulted with about 90 different transit agencies over the last 2 decades. I have been the pioneer of many successful programs, from Metrocard changes, getting New Glyer back in NYC, getting Nova back in America, SAS, to SBS and beyond. In the process, 90% of what goes on within all agencies of the MTA comes across my desk before 98% of MTA employees actually get the information. I have released more exclusives on the MTA than anyone else in this industry next to Mr. Trevor Logan Jr. I’ve created every new train project thread EXCEPT this one, and and that’s only because I was on vacation for my birthday when it all came out and I had new bus contracts to sort through. I also limit what I now post in subways because it’s really irritating when people tell me what’s not going to happen or my information is incorrect when, when my 11 year records stands at 99.9% accuracy. If anything changed it’s because the MTA decided to make changes, or minor details were incorrect. This exactly why I waited for the black and white to come out on the R262. I’m too old to be arguing with you all these days, and explaining every 8-12 months who I am. Please note the credibility of NYC Transit Forums was build off the back of my information and the string of exclusives I used to do. At one point 90% of MTA news was release here first. New agencies, and newspaper media outlets have gotten stories from here as well. Great example is when I posted that MTA would shut the L down and get 200 used diesel buses from TTC. Well once the new saw my post they nipped that in the bud immediately and now we have 200 brand new buses currently being delivered. For those that didn’t know, the $1 charge for new MetroCards, and making them refillable was my idea. The report I summited on what would do if I was the CEO of MTA has actually been implemented across the board. The only plans I had in there that fell apart was the order of new RTS buses, and a subway under Utica Av that stretched from Kings Plaza to LaGuardia. MTA started both programs. MTS couldn’t meet the terms for new RTS buses, and realistically they can’t afford a subway under Utica. I then suggested a diversion of that money to restart SAS. Now phase 1 is complete. So to answer your question of where I got my information, I have access to all things MTA. Including some classified material that I can’t discuss until it hits black and while. I got in major trouble for that, and I was attacked right here at NYCTF. I posted info on the R188 award before Kawasaki was notified, and I also created a thread stating that New Flyer was resurrecting the C40LF from the dead for MTA before they were notified as well. Even NFI though I was lying, so I don’t take offense anymore. I would also never say “I told you so.” Even though I could have about 70 times now. I’m also changing the name of the R188 thread and integrating the R142 upgrade information. Please standby for that. This program has been in the works for nearly 2 years now. It just hasn’t been public. I did however break the story in it in a thread somewhere. I will try to find it. I may start a new thread because the upgrades will now expand to the entire 142/142A fleet. MTA is actually seeking out any and ALL companies with knowledge in train rebuilding to consult on the project. Ideally they would have had Bombardier at the forefront for this project, but they aren’t confident in their work at this time. We will get into all these juicy new details as soon as I finish the report. Back on topic. Now that the R262 is public, my full program report is coming soon.

The R142’s aren’t going to be replaced anytime soon. They will all be upgraded to R188’s.

They already released it. I’m waiting on my copies now! I can’t wait to dive into all that info. Inactive. They are technically still open. Yes Orion was. It’s a shame they were only months away from a public launch of the Orion IX and Orion X Artic. Electric was going to be a focus for those platforms. If anyone wants to take a travel back in time to when we didn’t have as many users and I was just coming onboard as a staff member full time, check the link below. This is how I used to post new program information all the time. Now, if I post it seems as if most people ask all the same questions 2 days later lol.

Used to lol. Not many hybrids are plug in these days. Most just have electric systems driven by the gas or Diesel engines now. 500 miles on a single charge in good weather conditions. Extreme temps sill won’t affect the bus even if the charge hold drops a whole 50%. Charge time is 3 hours for 100%. Rumor has it the next award may include electric express test buses. I’m a auto, truck and bus/diesel mechanic, so I’m still learning as well seeing as this tech is still developing. I do however love learning about it. I have also realized that they don’t require much maintenance at all. Not at many moving parts, not as many components need replacing. I should complete my master technician certification buy years end. There’s a whole new class on electrically driven vehicles that I can’t wait to dive into. However, being an RTS owner, Detroit raised, and Detroit Diesel Trained, I’m not quite ready to let go of my engines for this electric stuff. But it is what it is. It’s more efficient, clean, and tons better for the environment. Truth be told, MTS did NOT want to continue forward with any other buses other than the RTS Extreme LF Electric. They just needed MTA to seal the deal for diesel to give them the money needed to start the electric line. MTS tech is much more advanced that what NFI has now, but they just dont have the funding. I signed an NDA with them, so I can’t discuss the all-electric tech they were developing. Let’s just say no-one wants it to actually come out because if it does, NFI will have competition again. They don’t really have any now. Thats all I’m gonna say about that...... 😉

7686, 7687 to EN 6123, 6125 MQ to FB 7711, 7714, 7715, 7718, 7720, 7721 to FP 7716, 7717, 7722, 7725 to GA 5539, 5549, 5554-5558, 5560, 5561, 5563 to GH 0011 NFI Aniston back to MQ via the service center. Specs are now finalized for the XE60’s. Please excuse double posts if there are any.

Please note that hybrids do not have transmissions. What exactly are you hoping for? The assignments are already posted lol. They are going to quill and a couple will test out of “select depots” in all 5 boroughs. It’s mentions in the fleet review. Manufacturers are going to make what the market demands. They all currently offer some type of all-electric buses anyway. Yes NFI is New Flyer which owns MCI, and no this bus is all-Electric. Our current electric buses are duel-mode charging. Meaning they plug-in at the depot or fast charge along a route or with a mobile charger. All available electric vehicles are plug-in. Not many hybrids are plug-in at all. Only a few cars, but no buses.

Let me start off by saying this is a discussion for the Fleet & Depots thread. If you made a general discussion post recently and no longer see it here, it’s because I removed it. This conversation will be moved for reference. This is the ONLY conversation that will be moved. All others will simply be removed, and your posting privileges will subject to immediate suspension. At this point these buses (XDE40’s) aren’t being tested. These are production pilot buses for the upcoming order, not test buses. This is actually a direct competition and evaluation between the different hybrid systems. I’m 100% percent sure we will get more XDE40’s, and if Nova drops the price of their hybrids we will get a split order with Nova LFS hybrids as well. Those would/will go to the Bronx and Queens. Quill is getting new hybrids (see hybrid deployment plans on the first page of fleet and depots). When they arrive, they will be assigned Quill, so it makes sense for a couple depots to get and evaluate at least one BAE unit and one Allison unit. What I will be waiting for is Ulmer Park. Theses will be their first hybrids. Nothing was ever mentioned about hybrids, yet this was a given seeing that they will go to all divisions except Staten Island. The original electric plans were for Quill and GA to swap fleets 18 months into testing. When I last checked, this was put on hold due to the the fact that the Proterra has not passed the BTE as of yet. New Flyer on the other hand has, and in the process, test bus 0011 has returned to NFI and now serves as the configuration audit bus for the XE60 order, which will NOT have pilots. The lead buses will be similar to pilots for configuration audit and finalization. One will test in service for 60 days on the M14, then the rest will follow. Once TA has successfully burned all the buses in, finalized testing for outer-borough operations, a couple will start to head out to the other 4 boroughs for testing. MTA has also opted to put on hold the ordering of any en-route chargers for the time being, and will test out M14 the logistics and operational viability of charging them with the existing leased chargers being used for the M42 and M50 runs. After the lease is up, MTA can then purchase chargers and deploy them based on the assignments of the 45 XE40’s that are pending unless Proterra passes the brake test in the next 10 months.

I’m pretty sure we are talking about 2 different thing. This detour was for N/W station upgrades.

All electric is less expensive in the long run. Buses require much less maintenance. As of right now no one has tested electric buses other than Quill in Manhattan and Grand in Queens (Brooklyn Division). As of right now the buses have been testing for quite sometime and the New Flyer models have received favorable results. There’s no reason it won’t work here as it’s already been proven successful. The only major issue with the Preterras have been brakes not passing MTA’s testing. Mad far as hybrids go, I mentioned over a decade ago that it was a mistake u less they were Allison powered because of wide range our duty cycles. This proved to be corrects and they had to be tuned to keep up with NYC demands. We have good hybrids, they just weren’t made for high speeds. Any new tech or bus is going to have teaching problems. When the RTS was introduced it failed and had major rear door problems and a few other minor issues. At one time MTA was considering the testing of hydrogen-electric hybrid, (XHE40 or XHE60) buses, however they made the decision to go diesel-hybrid, then all-electric across the board. College Point has plans for articulated operations in the future with routes such as the Q25. But if and when this happens it will likely be XE60’s. MTA is no longer interested in long term investments in any buses other than all-electric. It is likely that last diesel and CNG orders have been awarded. MTA Bus will have the next standard procurement for 25 buses with options for an additional 16 options. This is ok the books as a diesel award but will likely change to hybrid and follow the 275 additional buses we have coming starting next year. It could also be converted to electric as well to support the conversion. This is the wave of the future. If the tech hasn’t failed by now, I don’t see it happening in the future. Our leased test buses have been performing quite well, and our first production order is only for 15 buses, so it’s not like the MTA is jumping out the window like they did with hybrids. Then next is 45 standard buses. If they were to somehow fail, MTA has cushion to move to another platform or go back to hybrids. Please note this includes express buses and I’m also getting word that MTA may also opt for a few test buses in the upcoming order which is pending for later this year. NFI is aggressively working on the new D45 CRTe (high-floor) and CRTe LE (low-entry) all-electric versions with tech based off the Xcelsior Charge. Effectively know as the D45 CRTe Charge and D45 CRTe LE Charge, these will be plug-in types and will not have en-route charging capabilities to my understanding. MCI (NFI) is currently in the test phase and want the buses (including the J4500e) to be commercially available next year in 2020. The J4500e prototype is complete and as many may know, the new D45 is essentially a classic D merged with a J. All my sources are telling me that as soon as the first bus is ready, and Altoona certified, it will make its way to NYC.

No they shouldn’t. NY MTA and LAMTA, the the 1st and now 3rd largest agency (NJT passed LA for the first time ever this year) are slated for all electric fleets. The technology is mature enough to begin full implementation within the next 10-15 years. Just let it go....... MTA does not agree with you so it’s not happening. It’s not happening guys. So let’s just let it go. MTA’s decision was between the XDE60 and the XE60. The decided on the XE60 and already awarded the contract. Even if they did go with the hybrids they were still going to Quill. Not the Bronx for anything other than duct cycle testing right now. No need to make a fantasy thread on it either. Yes New Flyer offered CNG-electric hybrids for a moment but no one purchased them. The new Cummins Gas Engine has a Near zero pollution rate so they aren’t really needed. All depots means all depots. Anyone can use them. They are Diesel-Electric hybrids.... Whick means they are fueled with diesel fuel. Just explained above. The 3G’s are NOT hybrids bro. They are diesel. They didn’t like them. Same as East New York. Again as mentioned above the 3G’s ARE NOT hybrids.

There are no articulated routes that don’t have high ridership.

M60+ and Q19 stop is temporarily relocated during construction until Tuesday Feb. 6th.