Q43 Floral Park

On 4/20/2021 at 8:52 PM, JAzumah said:

Buses have to carry people. The MTA exists to move people. I know that is a radical concept, but that is why it exists. That means that service may have to be shifted around every so often if the demand grows or drops on a route.

The first sunday this month, I thought all of the tracking apps (MTA and 3rd party) were glitching because Ia route that should have been every 20 minutes until 1A was saying check back later at 8:50P. Waited 15 minute before leaving, then 10 minutes at the stop and just opted to walk along the route instead of taking one of the 2 seat alternates. It was nice out and I wanted to see if there were crowds (there were) or if something would come because broken tracker/new bus (nope). About 30 minutes later, a lone bus, passed me packed to the brim in the opposite direction.

I finally reached out only to be told it wasn't a GPS glitch but that they ran out of operators 3 hours early. The bus I had just seen was on its last run because it vanished as soon as it hit the terminal. To me, it seems like its based less off of demand (this route was in the top 50 for weekend ridership pre-COVID, and there was an article out last summer saying it was the most crowded 40 ft route) and more so taking advantage of chronic issues (route unreliability is nothing new and they made zero announcements about it).

11 hours ago, paulrivera said:

That Bx3 midday cut is gonna sting because that ridership data isn’t accounting for all the farebeaters and how unreliable the line is as a whole.

Then again, what line actually does?

it's great that they claimed the route needed no adjustments via the redesign, just to announce a cut service on the low where most riders won't read about it.

imo the bx3 unreliability is largely self-inflicted and is used to justify reducing its service. it's easier to say 'service is delayed because of 181 st traffic' nearly every day than to admit its because:

a) they've been randomly ending runs at kingsbridge rd for 5+ years and won't build them into the schedule, make them trackable or have them serve the VA Hospital

b) telling operators to battery run and skip stops instead of putting some type of limited service together

c) won't use any artics to address the crowds (i've seen more artics wind up on the Bx32 tbh)

d) won't put a dispatcher at 238 street to make sure buses don't arrive and leave together.

On 1/7/2020 at 11:58 AM, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

3202 is still at Spring Creek (On the BM3 at this time).

It’s at Yonkers now, had it on the BxM3 last night 

2 hours ago, Lex said:

I'd willingly trade BxM3 service north of 262nd Street for Sunday service. (Seriously, why is that still a thing?)

well they could but that would decrease ridership and increase the deadhead (its the shortest one after the BxM7) for starters. After looking at this report, they'd probably use the new terminal at 262 as a means to cut the AM Super Express runs (saying it won't carry well from 262-246 only), then we have less buses that are more crowded running the whole route...

my BxM3 stop is still on the chopping block after going to the meeting and explaining it's on an isolated hill without any alternatives. so I don't we need trade, I think we need to demand an explanation for how we are supposed to accept 400+ stop cuts without seeing stop by stop ridership for every route or these drastic midday/sunday express cuts without seeing the average passenger counts on the runs in danger

3275 and 3422: ECH to YON 

8689 to KB

I’ll add this one:

Southbound BxM3s left Getty Square at ~5:15  (missed it because I wasn’t expecting it) and 5:35 (caught at 6pm). The former tracked on the transit app until it hit the Deegan, vanished until 125, reappeared then vanished again by 62 st. (I should have gotten the bus number from the MTA app) and the latter is the actual run. There’s nothing tracking on the s/b 6:35 run and 2 n/b buses coming up Madison now. not really sure how this happened but if it’s true we’re looking at a 2 hour south bound service gap.

On 8/28/2018 at 1:39 AM, 78 via Stew Leonards said:

HERE IS A MAJOR EXPRESS BUS PROPOSAL FOR YONKERS ROUTES BXM1, BXM2, BXM3, AND BXM4

BxM1/2: They are truncated to 246th St and exclusively serve South Riverdale where most of their ridership comes from.

BxM3: Sedgwick Ave service is cut out, and goes straight to Broadway, then Mosholu Ave, 254th St, and Riverdale Ave all the way to Getty Sq.

BxM4: Redirected from the Concourse to the Deegan, then serves Sedgwick Ave, gets back on the Deegan at Van Cortlandt and shoots up to Woodlawn. Use the  for the Concourse.

BxM1/2: Riders north of 246 St have less service north of 254 and it'll only goes to 5th av (Bxm3/18). The BxM3 might take about same amount of time to hit the Deegan  as the current BxM1 via 236/Riverdale does. If the BxM1/2 start at 246/HHP, I feel like all service would end up via Spuyten Duyvil. They'd cut those AM via Riverdale Av runs and justify it by saying they won't fill up on 5 stops/were there to speed up the rides of North Riverdale riders).

BxM3: Broadway will have no service (north of Mosholu) and will probably lose service once MTA sees it not carrying. The new BxM4 will be late after getting stuck on the Deegan between 233-VCP and could have Sedgwick riders standing in the AM. Woodlawn would love this though, it's the only way they'd have a chance at <30 min headways.

BxM4: riders on the Concourse/Norwood willingly pay 6.50 for the route with the shortest express section and this forces them to the if they want the East Side. I wonder if putting the stops on the main road would speed it up...

3 hours ago, I Run Trains said:

Wassup y'all.. On My brake today, i went to hang out with my B/O friend at West Farms and i've heard some interesting things thats about to happen and somethings that are being talked about.

- starting on Sept 2 (the New Pick) The Bx36 will be all Artics

- The next line to go SBS might Be the Bx19

- Might Be sending The Bx15 and Bx17 to KB, and The Bx39 to West Farms. (Another Friend the drives out of GH said It was talks about the Bx15 going to GH)

- The Bx35 MIGHT have Artics on some rush hour runs.

 

Now before anybody try to attack my post, AS I SAID THIS WAS THE CONVO THE DRIVERS AT THE DEPOT WAS HAVING... The only thing that seems like its happening is the Bx36 all Artics. 

If true:

Bx36: I see the short turns still being 40fts.

Bx19: needs all the help it can get.

Bx15/39: I'm definitely biased on this as a KB rider but IMO they consistently gets the short end of the stick... they lost Bx55 LTD runs for Bx15 local runs which sucked for operators (I also can't think of another route where the locals are at 1 depot and the LTDs are at another). Then the Bx41 for the Bx39 which meant no SBS runs and longer deadheads. Every time a new order comes in either GH gets them first (NGs/LFS), they have to split it with GH (47xxs) or they get hand me downs that have been walloped elsewhere (the LFSAs). Putting the Bx15 out of KB would be a step in the right direction. 

Bx17: see below

Bx35: makes sense

3 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

How could the Bx17 move to KB without a standard route in return? Unless the Bx39 uses more 40 fters than I give credit to.

That's what I'm trying to figure out.... The only route that can move to KB without them needing a lot more buses is the Bx32 (which would make more sense).  I feel like it's like the Bx9, you might see 1-2 daily.

On 8/13/2018 at 9:54 AM, B35 via Church said:

Don't know why I didn't notice this reply earlier....

- So what you're asking more or less is, of the people that utilize the (real) Sx Qm5 at the first stop (6th/36th), how many of those people would be left out if my rendition of a Qm5 were to come to fruition.... I'm not too sure of how many people specifically disembark the (real) Sx Qm5 west of 188th....

- As for the hypothetical Q27 breakup bit, sure, no problem.

- Local bus fleet on an express? They're starting up that crap again huh..... Don't miss that nonsense at all when it was persistent on the Spring Creek routes some odd years ago; as you say, you used to feel every goddamn bump on the FDR & the Gowanus.... You know this agency is done for when they start interlining local routes with express routes... Lol....

I'll get around to riding the SX one of these days to see how it goes...

my 2 worst express rides were: sitting in the rear stairwell on a SRO YON 92xx w/ mix-match seats and no heat in the dead of winter and a O5 CNG with local seats on the old 1A that hit every pothole to the point where a panel dislodged from the undercarriage and dragged from QB to Main.

We don't have suburban 40 fts anymore so I just don't understand how you interline them and don't give the operator enough time to swap out buses... You pretty much have to pass BP to get from the Q64/110/112 to Rochdale and if its a Brewer run I can't fathom why you would just end at the Depot.

On 8/11/2018 at 2:39 AM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I have been developing a plan for the Queens express bus network. The goal is to increase coverage of the system, and to provide greater service overall than the current network, which is greatly needed (sorely needed in some cases). I would like to hear input on this, especially those who frequently ride the Queens express buses. There are a couple of main components to this plan, with some relabeling, but here are the plans as follows:

List of Queens Express Bus Routes
 

QM1/2/9: don't know too much about the current routes but this looks good on a map

QM3: Pros: it skips Northern west of Flushing-Main

Neutral: While I've never seen anyone use it on LN, it's a long walk to Northern or HHE.

Cons: Like B35 said it not serving Northern west of Utopia would kill it. PW service is better East of Bayside (hence the QM3 ridership being higher west of there). The time we save off Northern (w/o Flushing), we lose meandering to get to Northern by Broadway. Now you could put it on Sanford and still get the Northern riders but idk where you go from there (I imagine Sanford-Kissena-HHE would just be stuck in traffic)... All day service is ambitious when most people would probably just want a Q12 LTD.

QM4/C/S/X: QM4 Extension to OG is perfect. I'm confused... I get the service patterns but if the QM4C/S/X don't make QM4 stops, why label them the same? For the X variant you could stop at Bell and go express from there (Oceania and F Lewis are dead)

QM6: eh.. LIJ is a good Q46 terminal but I'm not sure how many express riders are getting on/off there. It takes 2 minutes to go from 260-LN on Union; via GO will take 10-15 minutes and it'll be hard to stop at LN Eastbound and still make the left (unless you have it do Union-80-LN and use the Q36 stop). The stop at 75th can go but you need one at 73rd. I know it's an awful routing but the whatever serves LN has to either end at the Plaza and not serve the parkway or go to Glen Oaks because...

QM8/14/37: the GCP service road is narrow east of LN and NST would lose it w/all those buses terminating there. The problem w/ ending downtown service at the plaza is the current QM8 gets good ridership in GO. I'm not sure where you have the QM14 ending but there's no GCP/LN stop at all... you can't expect the people on the service road to walk to NST, 260/LN or LN/61.

QM12: Something needs to be on Yellowstone North of QB.

QM21: would Rochdale be okay only having service along one side (idk how long it takes to walk through). I always wondered why there's no FL/250 st stop for the x63 but why cut Hook Creek out?

QM22: I think an East Elmhurst/Jackson Heights route might fare better...

QM64/68: Peak, I'd probably have the QM68 as the route at Main St and then the next stop at Midland. Let the QM64 stay the same but just run express from the Van Wyck to the city.

On 7/28/2018 at 4:30 PM, B35 via Church said:

Hold on....

During peak hours, what unilateral stops in Queens does the Qm5 serve that the Sx Qm5's doesn't? (serious question)..... I thought those Sx's only meant that they make the one pickup at the terminal in Midtown, then gun nonstop to Queens, where they make all other stops that the non Sx trips do....

Your question is more one of how to effectively address demand, than it does not fully comprehending what goes into effectively scheduling some bus route{s}....

They make the same stops now but I was saying if you change the QM5 route to make less stops and leave the SX with one pick up would it still be worth it (idk if the people using it are west or east of 188).

Thanks for the breakdown on the hypothetical service.

On side note: someone mentioned this in another thread but BP had an O7 on the QM21 this AM... While I get interlining, it seems kinda messed up to have people paying 6.50 to hit every bump on the LIE... Had to be glad it can't happen on my express route(s).

On 7/24/2018 at 11:21 PM, B35 via Church said:

1a. Qm1 @ 20 mins peak & Qm6 @ 15 mins peak would see increases (due to the extension & due to the branching, respectively)... Qm5 @ 12 mins peak would remain the same.... I'm not understanding why Qm5 runs would need to become Qm1's/Qm6's...

 

I think all 3 routes already run more frequently than that in the AM (if you were to avg the 6-8am runs)... in the PM, the QM5 SX runs would be serving half the stops it serves now. Might be better off having a QM1 or QM6 SX...

my comprehension of scheduling is minimal so maybe someone can break it down for me:

if a route (in general) is shortened and then covered by 2 other routes, I would think it would require less buses per hour (unless the stops it's keeping to itself are the high generators) because you're going to need more buses on the 2 other routes.

ex.  if you split the Q27 in half at QCC; made the Flushing portion a branch of the Q26 and extended some Q83s up to old Q75 terminal to give Oakland Gardens direct Jamaica service and left the Q27 as a standalone bet Murdock-120 (an obv. horrible idea), wouldn't the branched Q26 and extended Q83 require more service than the Q27?

16 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I would agree with/envision a direct NST-downtown route carrying lackadaisically - which is why I never suggested that.... But I do think more of Union Tpke (east of 188th) should have direct downtown service.....

As for your bullet points/inquiries:

1] I haven't thought about/drummed up any actual scheduling/headway plans, but what I can tell you is that there wouldn't be any service cuts.... The whole goal was centered around rearranging how the Union Tpke. expresses are set up..... You may see it as a shortage along 73rd & overkill along Union (b/w 188th & Springfield), but I see it as anything but (what you're saying with that)... Why? Because I believe Oakland Gardens should be getting just as much service as Fresh Meadows (hence, the introduction of having a bus (the Qm5 in my scenario/plan) serving more of Springfield)..... I don't proclaim to know whether this is true or false, but I can't fathom all (or the lion's share of) that ridership in Oakland Gdns. are of people north of 73rd.....

2] You're right - which is why I wouldn't have QM1's on layover at Springfield itself (that wasn't my intent at all).... They'd layover along HHE (south end) anywhere between Bell & Springfield (akin to the Qm4 that has buses on layover anywhere along HHE b/w Parsons & 164th)...

3] Don't understand what you're asking here...

1a. I like this plan and agree that no service cuts are a good thing but can you help me understand how? The branched QM6 would definitely need more runs [neither NST or GO is going to take peak only service] and I think the QM1 might also need some if its going to do Main-188 solo. Meanwhile, giving up the GO+73rd riders, eating into more of the QM6 base and running express after 188 means the QM5 only has 10 standalone stops for ridership. To me that = QM5 runs becoming QM1/6s = HHE bet. Springfield-LN  getting less service.

1b.  I could be wrong but I've been under the impression that express ridership in Oakland Gardens North (via 73rd Av) is higher than express ridership in Oakland Gardens South/Hollis Hills (via Union)  [north has denser housing + the Q88 is local vs. south is all homes but has the Q46 LTD]. I agree that most riders probably aren't north of 73rd but I would think the bulk find it easier to get to 73rd over Union [that parkway is in the way]. In other words, if Midtown service were to be extended in OG, I thought the 73rd service would need to be supplemented before Union.  If you throw new stops on Springfield at 75th/77th into the equation, would people choose them over the more frequent service at Springfield/73 (QM1/5) or Springfield/Union (QM5/6G/6N)?

2. Gotcha, I never taken the QM4/44

3. Your QM8 runs east from Douglaston to GO before heading to the city. I was asking how much time it'd save over the current crawl

On 7/22/2018 at 3:27 PM, B35 via Church said:

AFAIC, the Qm1/Qm7 doesn't do enough & the Qm5/8 does too much IMO.... I personally abhor the comprehensive Qm5/8 routing anyway & FWIW, they shouldn't be making stops west of Fresh Meadows along Union Tpke. when the Qm1/7 only run as far as Fresh Meadows on top of it.... Something else that also bugs me, is the fact that Union Tpke east of Fresh Meadows doesn't have direct downtown service - that is, until you get to the last stop of the Qm5 (Union Tpke/260th)....

I'd aim to change a lot of this....
(side note: The corresponding 3rd av services for the three Midtown (6th av) variants would undergo the same corresponding outerborough routing changes)

Qm1 - Midtown Manhattan to Oakland Gardens (Springfield/HHE) via Fresh Meadows, via 73rd av
Qm5 - Midtown Manhattan to Little Neck (LNP/HHE) via Union Tpke, Springfield, HHE
Qm6 (Glen Oaks branch) - Midtown Manhattan to Little Neck (LNP/HHE) via Union Tpke, 260th st, LNP
Qm6 (Lake Success branch) - Midtown Manhattan to Little Neck (LNP/HHE) via Union Tpke
Qm7 - Lower Manhattan to Oakland Gardens (Cloverdale/HHE) via Fresh Meadows, via 73rd av
Qm8 - Lower Manhattan to Little Neck (Douglaston Plaza shopping ctr) via Union Tpke, 260th, LNP, HHE, Douglaston pkwy.

In map form:
* Midtown routes - Qm1/5/6 map link
* Downtown routes - Qm7/8 map link
(each route displayed on either map is on its own separate "layer", so if you want to view a specific route individually, you'll have to deselect the layers (routes) you don't want to view.)

IIRC, they said the NST-Downtown QM1As didn't become QM9s because they weren't carrying well and people could x-fer at Chevy. I agree that the Qm1/7 don't do enough, I'm just curious about a few things:

1. How do you set the headways? Going off the maps, I'm envisioning a service cut between Glen Oaks/LN Plaza (fine) but too much service on Union 188-Springfield (QM5/6/6G) and not enough on 73 Av (Qm1).

2. Why not start the QM1 at Cloverdale? I know the QM5 won't need the coverage but I imagine trying to layover at Springfield/HHE is going to be a pain.

3. How much time does going in the reverse direction cut off the QM8?

4339 GH to KB

3221 is still listed at ECH. Can confirm, it was on the BxM3 with YON decals last week.

3221 ECH to YON

6 hours ago, East New York said:

It will be either 5439-5515 MQ and 5516-5530 GH.

Or MQ-GH-MQ.

*continues to wait for KB to catch up to the rest of the borough by having at least one bus with wi-fi and/or usb outlets*

Congrats on 10 years.

Forgot to post this earlier but 3435 was on the BxM1 last week.

I didn't think this warranted a new thread because it technically has to do with proposals/ideas... Over the past week or so, I've notice countdown clocks going up in the Bronx. So far I've found one at the W/B Bx9/22/28 stop at the Kingsbridge/Grand Concourse; N/B on University Av/Burnside #2 (Bx3/40/42) and Tremont (Bx3/36). Besides the fact that I haven't seen any marketing on how many we'll get (maybe it's just a trial), my question is: who makes the call on where they get placed?

While I'm grateful to see them on routes I use, I just find it odd because Fordham or 231 Street seem like they would have been better locations for the first ones. Fordham because of the many routes (I still don't understand how the M23/86 SBS got the digital stop clocks before the Bx12 SBS) and 231 Street because of how inconsistent those routes are. IMO, The one on Kingsbridge should probably be at Jerome and/or University because those stops are more heavily trafficked than GC. Also the fact that the signs aren't digital means they can't display short turns...

Do you? Lol... While I think the MTA is content with letting the Bx40/42 wallow in their own pigsties (I still say the tremont routes went to pot, the minute they made them artic routes), I think they threw LTD's on the Bx36 for no other reason than to cater to interborough riders (much like what BM5 wants to primarily do for with a Bx11 LTD).... Someone else had a theory years ago (don't remember if it was on here or if I read it on Subchat) that the MTA gave the Bx36 LTD service as to not provide LTD service for the Bx39, since the Bx41 already had one (this was before they cut the Bx41 back & extended the Bx39 northward)..... Something to that effect...

 

Regarding the ADA issue as it relates to Bx8 riders vs Bx24 riders, I'm inclined to agree with that.... Also, when they had Bx8's running through Country Club for a brief moment (however long that diversion lasted before they reverted things), I think it was more to it than the noise pollution complaints.... I mean, who really complains about too much service.... But yeah, there is definitely a "divide" at Layton; a mason-dixon line (as I like to put it).... As if to say, we (country club) don't want you (throgs neck) gaining access to an area you clearly don't belong in & don't deserve to lay eyes on.... Those folks really put stock in the name of the neighborhood as if it's really the case

 

Ridership is still decent @ the Throgs Neck houses; I'd compare it to Bx31 usage @ the Edenwald PJ's....

 

Having to head east & ultimately back west on the in order to do what?

 

I think I see what you're getting at now, and if it is, that's my fault....

 

On the drive yesterday, I was thinking more about the post I made yesterday morning... What I left out (from that list in question) is that the current Bx8 b/w Edgewater & Buhre (and eventually running to HMC) would become a new route......

 

There's no point of having a route run from Emerson/Harding to Pennyfield, to do the current Bx8... The idea was to have the Bx8 do exactly what the Bx42 does south of Westchester Sq, then do the current Bx8 up to Gun Hill, then hang a left to WPR.....

I know the primary purpose was for interborough riders but it seems like over the years, intraborough ridership has shifted from the Bx40/42 to the Bx36, maybe as an unintended consequence (still inclined to think they knew this would happen). I can't prove it and I don't recall what the pre-artic headways were (I agree they're partially to blame for the bad service) but the combination of the Bx36 being more frequent and having LTD service makes it more attractive, even in cases where I specifically need a Bx40/42 stop. Granted the Bx36 has it's own bunching issues (tbh it needs some Q5/85 style LTD runs that end at WFS/HC) but I'd rather just walk to it than play with the Bx40/42. That's interesting... them giving the Bx36 LTD service to avoid Bx39 LTD service never really crossed my mind because:

a) the runtime on the coverage portion from Parkchester-Story isn't long at all (its 9 minutes to Randall local or LTD)

b) Bx39's would still be in a bunched up line North of BPE (only place a bus would be able to bypass another would be Boston Rd)

They had a somewhat valid complaint regarding the noise because the Bx14 never ran CNGs (Locust Point is far more isolated/quieter so I honestly didn't see the problem). At the same time they also didn't want Parkchester riders on the Bx14 having access to CC (not like there was any reason for them to ride over there), which is why they let it get cut. Country Club's pride caused a self-inflicted wound that messed up service for years... I was at the point where I felt like they should have just forced everyone to walk to the Q50 at Bruckner if they wanted a way out. Lol yeah a friend of mine refuses to admit to living in CC because they find that mason-dixon line pointless.

I'm going to have to try that end of the 42 one day but I agree with BM5 using Balcom straight would be more efficient..

So you'd bring back the old Bx23 but extended on both ends... Is there any particular reason for keeping the Edgewater Park and Locust Point routes separate? Also why cut the Bx8 off of Bronxwood north of GH? I'm not saying that the fact that it's always been up there is reason enough to keep it, but it'd leave a decent gap between WPR and Eastchester.

The Q42 was reduced to rush hour (which eventually happened), the Q84 would have eliminated entirely. I'm sure

While I haven't ridden the Q42 it seemed easier to reduce because everything sans the stop on Rex/Fern and the Sayres portion are near more frequent routes.

I have a 2009 service reductions booklet somewhere. I can double-check, but I'm 99% sure the Q84 would've been reduced to rush hour-only. The Q56 (along with the B25, Bx4, M10, and B75) would've been eliminated.

This was all I could find but yeah they wanted to cut the whole Q84 like it isn't .4-.5 miles away from the Q4 for the most part. It's bad enough its the M3 of Merrick Blvd... http://www.straphangers.org/fare/facts_service_cuts.pdf

The S76 had its weekend service eliminated and then restored, and the Q84 was supposed to be cut back to a peak-only route back in the 2009 service cut plan. As a matter of fact, I think they actually were proposing to eliminate Bx8 weekend service at the time.

 

It's not likely, but in an extreme budget cut scenario, it would be on the table, though number-wise, I wouldn't consider the Bx8 to be a low-ridership route.

My memory is spotty but I remember them saying they wanted to add overnight service in a bunch of places at the start of 09 (IIRC there was talk of bringing the Bx3 back 24/7), only to turn around and try and leave us with a bare bones system months later.

The 2009 version had them axing the Bx4/18/20 and they even tried to suggest cutting the Bx10/M79/96 overnight.  They had to take back that Q84 cut by the time January 2010 rolled around because telling people to walk to Linden/ expecting the Q4 to absorb those riders was a joke. IMO, once they decided to kill the Bx14, cutting the Bx8 in any form went smooth off the table because that was the only way (at the time) to replace it in CC. They've had to walk back so many of the cuts (M6 ->M55; Q79 -> Q36; Bx14 -> Bx4A/Bx24 etc.) that I've honestly been wondering if they had to actually do anything or they just wanted to see if they could get away with it...

Re S76: I know you live in SI so you know more about this than me but that cut always seemed like it was based on the assumption no one wanted to go up/down New Dorp/Mill Rds on weekends (which seemed like BS).

Yeah, the Bx31 is often bunched, sometimes in fours. I don't know exactly what part of the route brings reliability down (perhaps the closer you get to Westchester Square/the area south of Pelham Parkway). It could also be a result of interlines, or the B/Os themselves, or both as to why the Bx31 is unreliable. 

 

The Bx14 runtime was found using online resources. The portion east/south of Westchester Square is the same in runtime as the current Bx8 (29-30 minutes in the day, 23-24 in the evening). Because the Bx14 would not serve Water Street, 1 minute was reduced from the Bx21 runtime between Westchester Square and West Farms Square (26-27 minutes, so 25-26 minutes). Using 29 minutes for the southern portion of the Bx8 (typical midday runtime), and 26 minutes between Westchester Square and Morris Park, you get the 55 minute runtime to West Farms Square. The turnaround would be E Tremont, to Bryant, to Boston Road, which can take 2-3 minutes. 

 

Runtime to/from West Farms would be 60-62 minutes during the peak periods (and up to 65 if traffic conditions are really bad), mainly because the route would not hit many traffic-prone areas or segments. The cycle would be 150 minutes instead of 140 minutes, with 10 buses on 15 minute headways. If needed, 15 buses could run on 10 minute headways. Either way, it would be a service cut as services are being appropriated based on the new combined route. Either way, the route would not have coverage headways, and would see service levels appropriate to demand. The savings from those segments (because of less bph) would go towards improving service on the Bx8 (northern portion), the Bx21 (if needed), and towards addition of service on the new combined route (also if needed).

Bx31: From taking it... Edenwald causes the bunching primarily but all the construction around Einstein isn't helping it or the Bx21 at this point.

Bx14: thanks for the breakdown... I'd shave 2 minutes off from Waters, I get that it won't hit many traffic-prone areas but it will hit every light..

If the Bx36 were to run via E. Tremont & down past Met Oval to Hugh Grant cir., you could easily justify doing away with the Bx4a.... Any significant westward utilization of the thing (4a) in Parkchester is really being done from Hugh Grant itself.... Putting that another way, the 4a doesn't do anything special that the 4 doesn't do for the majority of riders in/from Parkchester....  So to that first statement, I don't see one as being more of the other over the other (Bx40/42 coverage route statement vs Bx4a replacement)....

 

One thing I do agree with you on, is that last statement... More often than not, the MTA to me gives off this impression that if they go out of their way to make ONE routing change or service adjustment (that doesn't save them any money, that is), then all issues on said route has been rectified.....

 

This is true... One thing I have always noticed about the northern portion of the Bx8 is that, for the distance it covers, it sees very little "intermediate" ridership.... The Bx31 in that regard isn't much different, but on the Bx8 it's much worse.....

 

Alright, so that overpass doesn't connect at W. Farms... Where does that overpass, start to "over pass" anyway?

(In other words, what's the last street that you can turn off 174th at? It cant be Vyse, so I'm thinking/guessing maybe Longfellow?)

I'd be fine (more or less) with the Bx36 replacing the 4A so long as it hits the circle. I'm convinced they put LTD service on the Bx36 so they wouldn't have to do anything with the Bx40/42 (making the excuse that they're close enough University- WFS that you should just take the former). Just waiting for them to try and SBS the Bx36.... Last N/B turn off of 174 is Longfellow, S/B is Boone.

It's funny because I recall mentioning a while back that the Bx21 to Bay Plaza might be more useful than the Square and someone said Morris Park people don't want to go there because they go to Manhattan and Westchester for shopping ...

The Bx8 hits a lot of schools though (more than the Bx31) so I feel like thats the only time intermediate ridership is noticeable.  I know a few people who used the Bx8/26 to get to Bedford Park from TN back in HS. Personally I feel like it should go up Bronxwood to 233 (from there it doesn't really matter where it ends as long as its not Katonah/242) and there should be a separate E 222 St bus route. About the ADA issue, I mean long time Bx8 (or Bx23 depending on how old they are) riders never had access to an ADA station until the 2010 mess... At the end of the day, I'm of the belief that one community didn't want the other to have easy access to it and that's how we ended up with this whole mess  (the Bx14 wasn't broken...).

Re Bx40/42: I always use the Bx40 in TN (because it skips TN houses) but how is the ridership back there? Lol Locust Point would lose it over Artics on Tierney (I can already hear the complaints about the D60s being too loud despite the CNG's being noisier) ....

I find it funny that we have a bus route that functions well serving 225th , Pelham Pkwy and Buhre when all three of those stations are used exclusively by folks who live within walking distance of them. In addition the daily ridership total at each station is low enough to suggest that masses aren't connecting from any bus. 

 

The Bx8 also ends at 10:20 pm on weekdays (decently used routes go to at least 12 am) and runs on half-hourly headways on weekends. That screams coverage route to me which means that when the next round of budget troubles come into place, the Bx8 could end up on the chopping block. My thought process is why not co-opt this and find a way to accommodate these commuters (who I surmise to be Evander and Lehman students for the most part) so we don't have to have a fight about saving a route that clearly is near the top of list of Bronx routes vulnerable to budget issues.

1) Your sentiment might be true for 219 , Morris Park and Middletown because there's no bus connecting to them (I know the Bx8/24 serve the latter but you have to pass other stations to get there). Also all 3 of those stations have lower ridership than the ones the Bx8 serves... Once you put a bus there, people are going to use it regardless of whether or not it's walking distance or has bad headways. The amount of people who will wait 10-15 minutes for the Bx3 just to go to/from Broadway and Orloff (not even those going up the steps/walking further uphill) is pretty high.

2) It runs until 10pm because those last runs tend to be dead and even if it ran until midnight, I'm inclined to believe it'd only be north of the Square...   The weekend headways should be 20 minutes but considering the is out half the time, it gets covered by the Shuttle Bus a lot in Morris Park. As for axing it completely....It's in between the S46/96 and B57 in terms of weekday ridership; S76 and Q84 on weekends. There is no way that will ever happen. Point blank.

If the Bx8 actually fed anything there wouldn't be a problem. Bx8 is not a feeder route at all. 

 

VG8, The routes serving Throggs Neck (Bx8, 40/42) are problematic. The first is too long for it's own good and has hardly any market north of the and the second is not frequent enough to overcome it's bunching issues. I don't see where addressing the Bx8 and that disservice a drawn out coverage route does for the neighborhood would be leaving them without service. Any phasing out of the Bx8 would mean either new routes being drawn up or increases in frequency to nearby lines. 

The south end feeds into the at Buhre because walking from TN/CC/EP to that station is laughable. The north end feeds into the Bx26/28/30 in addition to the Bx12. 


Like BM5 said, The Bx8 is one of the few long and drawn out Bronx routes that functions somewhat well in spite of bunching. It's literally the only north-south route through Morris Park (the Bx31 being in between Einstein and Amtrak limits its usefulness) and walking those blocks gets tiresome very quickly, it's the only way to get from parts of Burke/Bronxwood to a train (some people x-fer to it at Pelham Pkwy and it gets a decent load going to/from 225 .) Also a lot of students use it. The Bx8 gives the south end the exact amount of service they seemingly want (they have yet to ask for it to run later like the old Bx23/40s did). Personally I use the Bx8/12 combo over the Bx12/39 when going to get food up WPR because once the Bx8 is off WPR there's no chance of traffic impeding it.


This is where I'm confused though... Where is a new route going that southern Bx8 riders will want to go that they can't already get to? The people that aren't driving/aren't taking the BxM9 into the city for the most part want Whitestone/Bay Plaza or the . As for nearby routes.... The bx5 via Crosby was a mess, sending the Bx23 south of PBP ruins the loop, I actually think City Island would be mad if the Bx29 didn't go to Bay Plaza (still don't get how its not 24/7). You can't send the Bx24 south because Crosby won't have service, it can't loop CC + serve TN/EP and we all remember what happened the last time they tried to send a bus down Stadium Av... That leaves branching the Bx40 again and it's already spotty enough plus the Bx8 is a faster ride to the .

1) Yeah, that might be one downside. I feel that nothing would be done regarding the Bx40/Bx42 until people persistently complain (and not only to the MTA). The Bx40/42 is necessary in many areas of the Bronx (not just in the busier, denser parts of the borough). 

 

2) Then perhaps the Bx31 could be rerouted Waters Place (but only for the hospital). I've never actually seen people get on along Waters Place (whatever people are left after Eastchester Road are basically going to Westchester Square, and whoever gets on at Westchester Square are basically the only ones on the bus until it turns onto Morris Park Avenue). Also, IDK about bunching, because even on weekends (and buses are somewhat evenly spaced), there aren't many people on those buses, compared to areas south. I don't think there's much demand for thru-service past West Farms and into Morris Park (and vice-versa) with the exception of (perhaps) weekday peak periods. 

 

A combined route would be long enough (at least during midday and weekend daytime hours) where running coverage headways would be infeasible, and more buses would be needed, to the point where service could be more frequent (instead of running them on coverage headways). For example, the route would be 55 minutes long during midday and weekend daytime hours from end to end (not counting turnaround at West Farms Square). The route would need a 140 minute cycle period, where 7 buses would be needed to provide a 20 minute headway, instead of 4 on 30 minute headways (and delaying service to the extremes). Middays, that's a service cut to both areas, but on weekends, that's a service increase to areas east of Westchester Square, and a cut west of Westchester Square. During evening hours, perhaps the 30 minute headways can suffice, but not during the daytime. Additionally, the service cut on Morris Park Avenue would be pretty significant during parts of the day by making the service every 30 minutes (up to 66% of service is cut by running buses with those headways). 

1) I don't know how they've turned a blind eye to Tremont service for this long... It literally takes 60-75 to get from the Square to Burnside on a good day.


2) I mentioned the Bx21 serving Waters and running S/W of E 180 because I know 2 people who uses it for work (it's a minute amount, but it led me to wonder if others do). Even if thru-service is only relevant peak, getting rid of it doesn't seem like a good idea to me. As far as bunching, a friend of mine who uses it has explained to that the Bx21 bunching is like Bx9 levels of awful minus half the service. Now the Bx31 could serve Waters but I'm inclined to think it's already doing too much. I had a late meeting around Einstein a few weeks ago, took the SBS across and when I hit WPR, the next 3 Bx31 were still in the vicinity of Edenwald Houses. Ended up taking the Bx12-8-21, made all of the connections perfectly and got there before a Bx31 hit Gun Hill. Could have been an isolated incident but I definitely lost confidence in the reliability on that route (it also doesn't short turn anywhere). 


I appreciate you giving the "Bx14" run time breakdown and I have a few questions:


how exactly did you calculate it? (I'd like to try some myself)


How long would WFS turnaround take/ how is it occurring? 


(In theory, with the Bx9/40/42/Q44 taking up the entire south side I'm concerned that the Bx14/21 would only be able to serve WFS in one direction. While I'd rather not see this split be a thing, I'm almost inclined to say this hypothetical Bx14 could run down WF Road and end with the Bx35 if the Bx11 goes to Parkchester.)


How long would a run take Peak and/or with poor traffic conditions and would it be a service cut or improvement?

Just as I think the Bx36 shouldn't serve both 174th & 180th, I don't think it should be running down to Soundview either... For all I care, the Bx5's short turn can be extended to Olmstead/Randall in its place to make it more useful.... Since you say the 174th section is a pain, I'm guessing you would have the Bx36 run along the Cross Bronx service rd from E. Tremont (av) to White Plains rd with the Q44, to then continue doing the rest of the Bx36 southward....

 

As for the Bx4a, I understand that it took the place of the Bx14.... A Bx36 ending at Met Oval would only miss the Bx4 & the Bx5 as far as bus connections go (Met Oval as a terminal for the BxM6 I don't have a problem with).... But for the sole sake of connecting to the , yeah, it would have to go down to Hugh Grant cir. anyway to do away with the Bx4a.... Just like the Bx14, the Bx4a doesn't get anymore usage b/w Parkchester & Westchester sq. than it did.... Out of Westchester Sq, the Bx4a is used as if it's a diverted Bx4 (meaning, folks are riding past Parkchester) & anyone in Parkchester that takes it doesn't really ride too much further than WPR (from what I notice anyway)..... While the Bx4a is a good alternative to the old Bx14, I would not keep it around if I had the Bx36 serve Parkchester.....

Correct, you'd probably shave a good 5-10 minutes off of it. I don't feel like there are a lot of people riding Wash Hts-Soundview but I feel like a decent amount are riding intraborough West to East Bronx. Also can the Bx39 handle WPR south of Parkchester alone?

With the 4A I was surprised to see a decent amount of people using it from the to Parkchester North.. It's infrequent but it's still more service than the Bx14 provided.

 

I would send the Bx36 to Parkchester via East Tremont Avenue, to boot out the Bx4A, over terminating at Parkchester. However, I would do that because the Bx40 and Bx42 tend to bunch quite often. That is not to say that the Bx36 wouldn't bunch either, but waiting for those buses tends to become quite a hassle at times. I never liked riding the Bx40 or Bx42 for that reason. The multiple times I've taken the routes over the years (and in different locations), those buses would always come bunched. It would be worse when it was the Bx40 that I was specifically waiting for.  Regardless of truncating the Bx36 or "extending" the Bx36 towards Parkchester, I would just make all the buses Bx4s. The headways past Parkchester on both routes are crappy. The most frequent headway on either branch is 12 minutes, during the peak direction in the AM rush hour.

 

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Since we're talking about splits, I have proposal regarding the Bx8 and the Bx21. There's obviously an imbalance in ridership between the northern and southern portions of the Bx8 (with the middle at Westchester Square). There is more demand on the northern portion, and therefore should be an individual route. The Bx8 would essentially run from Westchester Square to Williamsbridge with headway increases in the PM rush hour, where it would receive a service increase. Those buses get slammed, and the headways do not meet up with the demand (every 8-10 minutes is not enough at times). 3 buses are needed on the weekends at any given time (for the most part). 

 

The southern portion would be part of a different route, because splitting the route would have the southern route receiving headway increases. However, that wouldn't mean it is necessarily safe from receiving headway increases, because at times I believe that there's more service than warranted, while the northern portion gets shafted.

 

The Bx21 also tends to load/tank out by East 180 Street coming from Mott Haven, and the portion east tends to be somewhat lagging compared to the rest of the route. It is not always that way, but for the most part, it is. Now, I would split the Bx21 so that it terminates at East 180 Street subway station. The eastern split would be combined with the southern portion of the Bx8, named the Bx14. Now, the difference is that the route would take Eastchester Road to East Tremont Avenue to get to Westchester Square, instead of Waters Place and Westchester Avenue. Headways would be every 10 minutes during the AM & PM rush, every 15 or 20 minute during the midday hours, and every 30 minutes during the evening hours.

 

Now, the issue I see with that, is that late night service would be discontinued on Morris Park Avenue. Perhaps the Bx21 could run every 50 minutes during the overnight instead (terminates at West Farms Square instead), while the new route operates at whatever frequency, or do the same thing like the current Bx39 where the Morris Park Avenue segment of the Bx14 would get overnight service.

A Bx36 via E Tremont is more of a Bx40/42 coverage route than a Bx4A replacement and while the buses do bunch horrendously, the portion between the Squares might be the fastest.. Plus it'd give them an excuse to not fix the 40/42.

Having the 1st S/B stop on the Bx8 on WPR causes some problems (can't access the stop if there's a Bx39/BxM11 there etc.). Combining the southern part of the Bx8 and the eastern part of the Bx21 doesn't sound like a route that's going to carry well IMO. Cutting off the Waters Pl portion of the 21 ignores the hospitals, businesses and Westchester Yard; ending the 21 at E 180 Street means anyone coming from the south can't access Einstein. From what I've seen both the Bx8 and Bx21 tank in Morris Park because of hitting every light and then bunching. I do support more short-turm service north of the Square on the Bx8 but with the Bx21 I have no idea where you could possibly short turn it in either direction.

Jubanion: The Bx31 doesn't come close to a train between Gun Hill and the Square, I don't really see a way to make it more enticing.