Trainmaster5

Believe me when I say that crap started about 20 years before 2001. I was in school car back then and we had some know it alls in my C/R and M/M classes. I’m talking about dudes who had collections of pictures taken by people hanging from the girders of Hammels Wye or the abandoned trackways leading from Atlantic Avenue to the tracks to the old Fulton Street El toward Rockaway Avenue. My motor instructors told us that most of the buffs were destined to be unemployed within two years. Interesting things but had nothing to do with knowledge about the job we were hired to do. Twenty years later 9/11 happened and we were told by the and the Federal Government that NO information was to be given to ANYONE not authorized to receive it. My coworkers who were buffs toned down their actions and conformed with the edicts. Unauthorized picture taking and the clowns 🤡 who were glued to the RFW from terminal to terminal were observed and sometimes reported. Personally I figured that most of the questions asked by folks were none of their business anyway. There were ways to be polite to the ridership but there were limits on what they were told. As far as employees passing information to outsiders I think that termination, loss of pension and benefits, and possibly Federal prosecution would be in order. I’d also like to add that the folks who blame EDP people for the situation today better get their facts in order. We’ve had EDP types riding the trains for generations and didn’t cause these delays for the most part. What we have today is criminal activity, vandalism, and should be prosecuted as such. IMO anyone who has an obsession with RFWs, ROWs, trackage and the infrastructure is an EDP where I come from. That’s my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree. I won’t take it personally. Carry on.

Try asking your question in the Transit Employment section and you might get a response.

I’ll simplify this for the rest of the thread. My opinion. Whether it’s a local, state, or Federal crime situation. Arrest, fines, and/or incarceration . Of course the ideal solution would be accidental electrocution of a few of these miscreants. The old folks would tell my generation that if you had a cancer you would cut it out and move on. My musings. Carry on.

I remember standing on the corner of Cozine and Pennsylvania Avenue with some friends who were bus cleaners from ENY depot and we would be shocked every time a Command bus made an appearance. There weren’t any signs or schedules posted there or at Flatlands that I can recall. I think that Command or Pioneer had their own schedules that weren’t posted anywhere. We used to see the buses to Atlantic City more often than the PBL ones.

Try asking your question in the Transit Employment section

Thanks for your response. It also seems to be a more accurate description of my troubles in ATS-A division. In my opinion many people are trying to blame the human factors because they don’t have any understanding of how the system works or don’t want to point their fingers in the other direction.

Is that 1347 also an ECHO from Parsons ? I’m just curious how far it traveled before the problem was noticed. I’ve personally left the terminal and after 2 stops I fail to get a lineup into the 3rd station. Two separate lines, New Lots and Flatbush, and both incidents were at interlocking locations. Who’s responsible for this, human or computer? My original complaint was that I traveled 26 minutes S/B from the terminal through a complex interlocking area at East 180th Street while in constant contact with RCC on.the radio. Train arrives on time according to the timetable, the tower operator, and RCC yet they see my follower get a straight lineup into and out of the station while I am stuck in the loop. The riders actually run down the stairs to get on my train because there is no in sight on the upper level. They don’t blame me. Carry on.

Believe me when I say that agree with you to a point. It’s not the system per se but the implementation and integration with the existing infrastructure. The system should have been implemented with an overhaul of the TIMETABLE. In RTO the timetable is the Bible. Work programs, schedules, connections, lunch times are part of the work programs that are laid out in the TIMETABLE. When I was in school car as a C/R we were trained in the details of dispatching, scheduling and the interconnections between the main IRT lines. My mentor sat down with a few of my fellow students and I and taught us about the importance of timetables and dispatching. . Back then there were 3 lines that were focused on. the , and the .That’s because they were the full time interborough lines. The other ones were just shuttle services. The covered the Bronx and local to the ferry. The covered the Bronx and the West Side and ran express in Manhattan. The was the Bronx and the Manhattan local and ran local in Brooklyn. The and were shuttle trains that connected with one of those main routes. When the shuttle service resumed full time ridership those overnight connections were blended into full length routes and service expanded many overnight connections were eliminated in order to avoid bottlenecks. In other words build out the service. What I saw with the introduction of the new ATS system was just an overlay on top of the existing system. There was another reason for the new system to be quickly introduced which I won’t get into but it became obvious that certain places became bottlenecks where different routes intersected. The new system would give a lineup to a train going straight ahead rather than one entering or diverging from the main line. Imagine making the same interval at the same time for 10+ years with the same riders, many traveling from the NE Bronx to Flatbush. I’m not going to blame the system but rather the people who signed off and implemented it without thinking it through. I complained about my own interval southbound but if you read the threads regularly you’ll see that the same thing happens NB at President Street on a regular basis. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

I know exactly what you’re saying. 5 days a week We’d leave the terminal on time but 26 minutes later we’d be held in the loop at 149th Street and the Concourse while my so called follower from Woodlawn would get a lineup into and out of the station. Next gap station at 125 and Lexington we would be 5-6 minutes late. I would blame the ATS for the lateness and the Lexington train dispatchers finally figured it out. The RCC dispatcher handling my section of the Bronx would have me give him radio checks enroute down to the Concourse. He was formerly the ATD at Dyre and Bowling Green. He and the tower operator saw that when the ATS was turned off up there we were always on time but when the system was activated we were always late. The sad part was that I always had two motor instructors riding with me on their way home who vouched for me and my Conductor yet the powers that be tried to defend the ATS system every chance they could. They actually tried to ignore my defenders who watched the issues daily. I heard that they actually had to pad the running time for that particular interval after my Conductor and I picked another job . It amazes me that so many people are blinded by the technology that they ignore what’s going on in front of them. My opinion. Carry on.

I was promoted to motors and a month later I was working at Lenox yard . I was catching the last train to Brooklyn on a Saturday night and , lo and behold, the C/R on the train was my old M/M working OT. We get to 72nd Street and I ended up clearing up a door problem on the train for him. Imagine he and the other M/M up front and I’m the only one (off the clock) who knows how to overcome a door problem. Shame.

Thanks for the quick response

I’ve been out of the loop for a long time so forgive me if I sound dumb. Although I’m an experienced IRT guy back in my transfer/ miscellaneous days I think West Fourth Street controlled Second Avenue and Broadway-Lafayette IIRC. Essex controlled the bridge and down to Chambers Street and then down to Broad Street in conjunction with DeKalb. I’m counting on you, RTOMan, Kamen and Bill from Maspeth to clear this up for me. Thanks. Carry on.

Congrats

I’ve been retired for over a decade now but I think it depends on the location in the system. In my case ( IRT) we had a system called ATS that would supposedly give the Train Operator a lineup instead of the local tower operators. I found that the system frequently misidentified my train and I had to call the local supervisor to get a correct lineup. If I took the wrong lineup I , alone, be responsible for the error. I’m assuming the same thing applies in the other division. The Train Operator is ultimately responsible for the route acceptance. I’m of the opinion that there’s too much over reliance on the tech factor in many cases. I used to see and acknowledge personnel from the Bronx down to my last transfer point in Brooklyn only to find that the automated system was misidentifying me all the way. Luckily for me the dispatchers and tower operators and the RCC knew my name and voice and they would give me the correct lineup. As far as someone punching for an incorrect lineup no matter where they are there’s supposed to be someone who would challenge the punch BEFORE the incorrect lineup is given. It’s a tricky situation where (usually) new Train Operators are too reliant on the tech and there’s no on scene correction available. This is the opinion of many old timers who came up in my era. Carry on.

Let's clear this up quickly. The Train Operator initiates the punch and route selection not the Conductor. If I'm understanding your question correctly a northbound train leaving Lafayette Avenue only has one option and that's crossing over to the express track to enter Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Although I'm an IRT man I can assure you that any n/b train leaving Lafayette Avenue will make that move. The switch is probably blocked and clamped to block any moves into the n/b local track on the path to the Transit Museum. Hope I didn't miss anything. Carry on

Question for my Brooklynites on the forum. Noticed a few articles in a newspaper that bills itself as " hometown ". There was an article about an accident on the corner of New York Avenue and Fulton Street in Crown Heights. Same newspaper reported on a homicide at 179 Linden Boulevard in East Flatbush. I'm guessing that bus fans see the errors that the " hometown" newspaper reporters made. 1- New York Avenue and Fulton Street is In Bed-Stuy, not Crown Heights. Crown Heights begins on the south side of Atlantic Avenue, specifically the Eastbound LIRR tracks. 2 -179 Linden Blvd is just east of Rogers Avenue on the north side of the street in Flatbush. Definitely not East Flatbush. Just wanted to point out these mistakes because I've noticed many posters quoting articles and/or press releases as if they were engraved in stone tablets. In the first instance I was employed at the Restoration Corporation for many years. I remember one of the original buildings at that corner was the Sheffield Farms milk bottling plant. When the delivery drivers went out on strike when I was a kid my grandmother would take my brother and I there with a shopping cart and load up milk bottles for her and her neighbors on Herkimer St. The second instance is easy for me. I used to live in that building. That was never considered East Flatbush. Just some recollections. Carry on.

Two questions for those involved. Are these work boots mandated ? Is there an option to purchase your own boots? I ask I come from an era where we purchased our own equipment. Just asking. Heck, I'm old enough to remember when we were issued pinstripe uniforms that my local cleaners wouldn't touch because of the steel dust that collected on them. We also purchased our own footwear. Carry on.

I think we're not on the same page here. I'm not talking about eliminating subway lines. What I'm focused on is the infrastructure part of the system. My classmates from the early eighties were taught that the most important part of subway operation, and rail traffic in general is the infrastructure. That's what I'm interested in. Let me show a few examples. On the and lines between Grand Concourse and East 180th St we had a tower at Freeman St with an elaborate interlocking setup. When the Unionport/ East 180th St location was being modernized we ran G.O.s as follows. on weekends. from New Lots (and later Flatbush) ran from the southern terminal to Freeman St and terminated. They then relayed to the middle track and reversed direction to the s/b local track loaded up and headed back downtown. Buses ran from Freeman to East 180th St. 3 stops. During this time service ran between Bowling Green and 149th Concourse upper level and terminated. On a weekday if a or had a problem creating a blockage we'd use that same tower to run around the blockage n/b or s/b so we wouldn't have to bypass too many stops and inconvenience all the riders. Guess what ? The bean counters said the cost wasn't justified to maintain the tower and switches so it was eliminated. Never mind that there are G.O.s now where bus service now has to run from 149th St-3rd Avenue to East 180th instead. So now Surface guys get paid the OT. Next obvious example is entering Wallyhorse territory. Let's say there's a blockage n/b at Whitehall St. The obvious move (to me at least) to get the riders to Manhattan and then to turn those trains back to Brooklyn would be to run them north to Chambers, discharge , and relay them back southward. Problem is that I heard those relay tracks and assorted switches and signals are gone. Bean counters said it saves money. Now I have my eyes on Crescent St on the Jamaica line. Instead of running G.O. service between there and Parsons-Archer I can see the bean counters calling for the removal of the turn back option and running bus service between Broadway Junction and Parsons. It's always about the money with these folks. My warning is " don't sleep on them " My opinion. No offense to anyone. Carry on.

Maybe someone can help me out with this question. I am reading about a G.O. on the this evening and it gives approximate times for the last departure from certain stops. Unless my eyes are missing something it states that the last northbound departure from Bowling Green is at 9:10 pm and 9:35 pm from Grand Central. How does it take 25 minutes to travel between these two stations ? Am I missing something here ? It used to take me about 25 minutes to go from Bowling Green to 138th - GC at that time of the evening. Bowling Green to Grand Central was a 12 minute trip on the schedule. Maybe someone has some insight into what’s going on here ? Carry on.

Mods. If it’s more appropriate you can move this post to the Random Thoughts thread. Thank you.

Gotta agree with you 100% there. A wise old timer told me years ago that the new program was “ blind them with BS “ and the public will eat it up. He was definitely right about that. I’m sure the people who know the system have either been sidelined or have left because they are disgusted with what’s happening. I vented to my mentor and his colleagues about certain things done in RTO and they pretty much agreed with me. My statement to them was that those people now in charge couldn’t run a Lionel train around a circular track without screwing things up. The whole agency seems to be run by consultants who screw things up and then move on to the next agency with no consequences. It then falls back onto the folks who were sidelined to correct the situation. IMO it’s not just NYCTA but MNRR and the LIRR. Meanwhile the public gets worked up about new equipment and the like but the underlying issues still exist. Press releases and such mean nothing to me, personally, because I remember the time before the 1968 “ Plan for Action “ was even proposed. Just felt like ranting. Excuse me if I offended anyone. BTW this so called congestion pricing is just another way to cut the state’s contribution to the . My thoughts. Carry on.

I'm actually going to agree with you for the most part. The world you're supposed to be inheriting is becoming unattainable precisely because of the generation BEFORE mine and continued through mine. From inside and out I've seen some of the shenanigans perpetrated on an unsuspecting public in the housing, education and transit fields for the last FIVE decades. I've met with policy makers in Central Brooklyn, housing advocates, and for 30 years decision makers in the mass transit aka world. It's my personal opinion that many people in charge don't have a clue and/or don't give a damn. I've sat in City Council meetings and watched city-wide horse trading where " I'll back your project if you back mine " was seemingly the only criteria. Not whether the proposal was beneficial or not. Imagine sitting in a meeting discussing construction where I look around and realize that I'm the only one who actually works on a construction site. I happen to agree with you 100% when I look at wages, benefits and the cost of living in the NYC metro area compared to where my friends and relatives began and ended their working careers. Luckily by the age of 30 I'd already worked for Transit, NY Telephone, the Post Office, a community Corporation and finally back to Transit. My friends and relatives from parents to my generation all followed that same script. Good jobs and benefits. Mostly Civil servants. When I look back now it all started going downhill around 1980 or so. When I tell folks I had five weeks of vacation time and good benefits while working and afterward some younger people think I'm exaggerating . I'm a union supporter who (sadly) watched the politicos and union leadership seemingly get together and stymie the upward mobility of the following generations. Press releases from major agencies, amplified by politicians and corporations and most of the media seemed to create the false impression that your generation and the latter part of mine were overpaid. When some of the Transit folks who trained me and my peers told me about the CBTC and associated ATS IRT component it took me the length of the Joralemon St tube to call the idea BS. The inside joke was that it would probably be about 20 years to complete and the software would be outdated by then. Look how far they've progressed. Meanwhile my main beef is with these BS press releases from that are issued promising things that unrealistic at best, or blatantly lies. I'd love for you and your generation to reverse this 40 year decline , in my opinion. For the most part the Archer is an underground stub of the Jamaica Ave El in my book. All that press at it's opening didn't mask the shortcomings of what the project should've been. These are just my opinions and people are free to agree with them or not. I happen to think that your generation has been screwed over royally. Sometimes it IS ABOUT THE BENJAMINS. Carry on.

I can’t believe that anyone in their right mind would actually believe that any of this would ever come to fruition. In case you haven’t noticed yet the NYCTA is dismantling infrastructure and has been doing so for years. Just count the number of stations, tracks and structures that exist today versus 1950 or so. I see posts relating to CBTC where people are talking about increased capacity but the never promised that but only said that theoretically there could be increased capacity. The same thing goes with increased capacity and fleet expansion. Meanwhile they have told the public that they will run new equipment with fewer seats per car. Read between lines and that negates the need for real fleet expansion on a massive scale. The trick is to read everything including between the lines . Reading comprehension. Basic stuff. My take. No personal offense to anyone. Don’t let blind optimism fool you.Carry on.,

Actually the US Census Bureau and NYC.gov says that the population of NYC has declined since 2020.

Let me chime in here with my own experiences with the R142 NTT on the line. Train properly set up at Dyre Avenue. TSS boards and we take off. Leaving Morris Park the TOD goes blank and then displays a black B. We arrive at East 180th Street with no announcements and no side signs. Two Motor Instructors headed home join me in my cab, along with the TSS from Dyre who is on duty. My C/R makes manual announcements and I tell the TSS to take over while I take a corrective action. I then open the circuit breaker cabinet and reset two circuit breakers. He panics (because I’m not authorized) and the two Motor Instructors watch me. The train pulls into Simpson St and everything returns to normal. Signs, announcements all okay. I take over and tell them that I learned the procedure from my “ big brother/ best friend “ who was an MS 1 in Coney Island Yard. Most RCI s in the IRT and all supervisors weren’t taught how to do that at that point. I used to tease them about it all the time. My three regular daily riders didn’t know the process but myself and the superintendent of school car did. He would occasionally ride with us because I was often assigned students and he, my conductor, my MS 1, and I all knew each other from before our transit days. It was definitely a teething issue back then and it’s probably one now. He and I recommended that my friends spend some time in East 180 barn because although the Bombardier guys were mostly gone the Kawasaki guys were there because they were testing the R142A cars on the Dyre line. I just learned something from Kamen Rider in the post after yours. It used to be the Conductor’s job to set up the announcements on the train but now it’s just the train operators who go to the yard for put-ins who do that. Gotta remember where I come from the Conductor is in charge of the train.It always surprises me that many rail fans don’t know that. My experience. Carry on.