JubaionBx12+SBS

Route proposal from Northeast Bronx to Mount Vernon. Originating from Bay Plaza Mall the route would take Bartow, Ely, 222nd St, and WPR northbound into Mount Vernon. The last remaining piece of this proposal is the routing and terminal within Mount Vernon. I will add that when it's settled on.

We have no available ridership figures from 2016 to confirm this so until April, my point stands. It would be nice if the MTA got the numbers out earlier or did what CTA does and posted month by month ridership reports. It would be much easier to follow the trends in usage if the reports were posted on a monthly basis. Given the trends in usage these days I would not expect to see any big differences from 2015 unless some of the high ridership routes losing passengers took big dips again.

Since when? http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ffbus.htm#routes

Who would I go to push for the BusTime countdowns that have been installed at stops along various SBS routes to be installed at a bunch of Bx12 SBS stops? It's a travesty that such a feature was implemented without the busiest route in the city being addressed.

My app idea wasn't meant with the general commuter in mind. It was meant for the very niche group of folks who would want to play watchdog and put the MTA's feet to the fire regarding the quality of service being provided. Basically, folks like us. I never said that a major tech company should produce such a thing, just some tech-savvy transit watchdog type. With the way the MTA is going, there needs to be a group of studious watchdogs (with all the tools possible) on their case making sure the service provided is up to snuff because lots of times the service is inexcusable.

It would be interesting if the BusTime app or BusTracker can be used as a visual to show just how bad service is performing on any given route. You could have one overlay that shows the buses moving at the rate they would if they all followed the schedule to a tee (something like the TRAVIC client someone posted to SubChat) and in the same app an overlay showing the real-time service. Obviously the bus symbols would need to be differentiated between the schedule based feed and the real-time one but having that kind of feature in a tracking app would sure be a wake up call to folks.

This sentiment behind that sentence is very problematic. In the case of said route, packed buses are so common that 50 people on a bus is looked at as underperforming when it is not. The off-peak loading guidelines called for buses to average a fully seated load at and above a 6 minute headway. For an LFSA a fully seated bus would be 52 people so a 50 passenger bus is almost right on the nose of 100% guideline capacity. Outside of rush hour no one would look at a bus carrying 50 people (artic or not) and say that bus is undercrowded and could use more people. Except, with the Bx12 SBS where buses should be averaging 50 people folks like you and I would make mention of the less than terrible crowding as if it's special. Riders on no route should be that desensitized to overcrowding to where buses carrying fully seated loads on a Sunday are seen as nearly equivalent to empty. I feel part of the MTA's willingness to cut service and the loss of ridership resulting from it stems from a desire to have routes doing so well that the riders are desensitized to crowding. That is a huge problem.

Most of the LFSA's throughout the city are SBS wrapped if you think about it. I would say that the newest batch of them should be given Sardine Bus assignments when they come in.

I'm interested in seeing if the absorption of the Bx41 SBS by GH will have any impact on the Bx12 operation.

1280 and 1281 are unwrapped as of today's sighting. What are in the plans for these units? Possibly going to KB for Bx39 service?

I don't think any Manhattan routes besides the ones that currently have artics need them. Beside, the M103 should lose artics as far as i'm concerned.

Considering Northern Blvd runs most of the length of Queens, where in particular is this the case?

The is getting more frequent service on weekends now. Trains will run every 8 minutes during midday on Saturday and Sunday instead of every 10 minutes.

I would rather see artics there then on the Bx12 local to be honest but I would also like frequencies to stay as is. 5 minutes AM Rush and 6 minutes PM Rush is the bare minimum for an attractive service and that's where the current Bx28/38 stands with 40 footers.

I know for a fact that short-turns are overused on the Bx12 Sardine bus. However, if these short-turns were not being used you would have potentially half-hour wide gaps mid-route which would lead to outrageous crowding and ridership losses as folks either walk to resort to cabs. I'm far more concerned about the erratic or nonexistent headway maintenance on these routes which is leading dispatchers to resort to turning buses around short. Based on the ridership conditions on the Sardine Bus, there should be no short turns at all. But when you decide to cut PM service on such a busy route and there's not enough buses out on the road to limit ridiculous gaps from developing you need to cover your ass. The best idea would be to provide the proper levels of service, but with the MTA that's way too much to ask for. As far as i'm concerned I'm blaming the Bx12 issues 99% on the PM service cuts the MTA decided to make in April. Between Fall 2014 and then the SBS saw 4 minute headways during the PM Rush hour eastbound and the early PM Shoulder Westbound (likely since the extra trips to accommodate this were pull outs from Gun Hill that needed to be at Inwood between 4:30 and 5:30). But their yearly schedule review in 2015 found that the Westbound buses during the afternoon were not crowded enough to require such a headway based on their guidelines. So they went and cut those trips entirely and the headway rose to 5 minutes (which it was previous to this point). The problem is that the 4 minute headway was put in to satisfy Eastbound demand, which did require 4 minute headways based on the guidelines. So the loss of those buses meant Eastbound service was now underserved for the PM. Now that eastbound trips are slowed down by the increased demand, they are not making it to Bay Plaza in enough time to make Westbound trips when they need to.Therefore Westbound service during the PM Rush sucks as well. The situation would have been far better if they kept things as is instead of cutting service.

I wholly agree with B35 that bus service issues are far more publicized then such with the subway when it should very well be the opposite. Our subway is terrible in terms of on-time performance compared to peer cities with even older systems. Number one priority in terms of transit in this city needs to be getting the subway to a state of good repair and OTP rates that places like London and Paris can offer. However, all the press around transit outside of the SAS debut is dealing with the ridership gains of the subway and losses on the bus. To me there's a subliminal message being sent to riders through this that they should not bother with the buses since the MTA wants to cut into them anyway. The other subliminal which is even scarier to me is that the subway should be given a longer than necessary time horizon on which to correct it's issues because it's "attracting" riders in it's current state. I'm not a big nostalgia guy but while we're at it, I would be amazed if 2017 service (in terms of pure TPH levels into Manhattan) was equal to such in the '50's.

All I know is that conventional approaches to keeping buses on schedule and alleviating overcrowding don't work when it comes to the Sardine Bus Service. If MTA were to be smart and add more buses they'll intentionally run them in packs so that half are sardine cans while the other half are carrying little more than air and then point to the average loads as reason to cut back to square one. So riders along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham Rd are SOL here. Also, intentional bunching (which I believe is going on with most of these low-headway routes) doesn't relive crowding at all from a rider's perspective. When bunching goes on most of the waiting crowd tries to squeeze on the first bus that shows up which is usually crowded. So most of the riders are on a packed bus and thus are experiencing overcrowding even if you have empty buses behind. Also, what analysis of bus rider behavior would lead anyone to think masses of commuters would seek out the trailing buses in bunches?

I've seen a few firsts today with the Bx12 SBS. One was a Westbound bus running drop-off only along Pelham Parkway. Bus had NIS signage up while carrying nearly a full load and would run up past the SBS shelter and local stop poles at Eastchester and Williamsbridge as a signal for waiting passengers to not consider getting on. The other was 2 out of 3 trips in an Eastbound bunch getting short-turned at Pelham Bay. One of the drivers warned passengers at Williamsbridge Road that his/her bus was getting short turned so a swarm of passengers flee to the bus immediately behind (which I happened to be on). The only problem is that the bus all these people flocked to also ended at Pelham Bay which pissed off quite a few passengers with some about to curse out the driver. There was a third bus that was bunched behind these two that did the honors of carrying a crushload into Bay Plaza but it's sad that quite a few passengers had to physically board three different buses to accomplish what the map shows as a one seat (if you're somehow able to get one) trip.

I've seen such a deadhead take place before and my first thought was shock that such would even be allowed. Whatever games seem to be played aren't affecting ridership levels on that route though. Damn near every bus during the rush was packed to the rafters and for most of the trip as well. I was on 5786 between 5:30 and 6 pm heading east which had a decent SRO load for the entire trip length. I'm amazed that this route can stay crowded for a whole 50 minute trip without emptying out. Even the busiest of routes empty out somewhere.

1. The problem I have a 2nd Avenue subway and with most of the MTA's transit planning in general is that it's not looking at solving the crowding issues from the source. One problem is that faulty ridership stats give the impression that overcrowding is only the result of intense demand from stops close to the peak load point which on the and lines couldn't be further from the truth. As someone who has used the 125th station on countless occasions over the years (mainly to xfer between the and trains) I can tell you that trains generally enter 125 rather crowded during AM Rush and half the train dumps at 125 for the xfer. Not once making that transfer did I think to myself that I would get a seat on the express since Bronx ridership is low. In fact 99% of the time the train whether or was almost full already. Which goes to show that the Bronx ridership alone creates overcrowding on these lines. But have the MTA tell it to you it's the 35,000 boarding at 125 and the 65,000 boarding at 86 which are causing the problems. If anything they just add to the problems but are in no way, shape or form the source of them. The source is without a doubt the Bronx. Each of the , and are pulling six figure totals from the Bronx into Manhattan with hardly any turnover in the Bronx on either line. The station by station ridership totals give a distorted picture as compared to what actually goes on with the Lexington Av Line. 2. Another source of Lex ridership that the Second Avenue Subway does nothing for are the folks transferring from Queens for East Side subway service. Last time I checked, the crowds that disembark packed trains at 53rd-Lex and disembark packed and at 59th-Lex aren't doing so for the heck of it. Also, last time I checked hardly any of these people are commuting from residential enclaves in Queens to the residential Far East Side during peak work commute hours. Numerically speaking this riderbase (based on transfer estimates) is just as high as the inbound/outbound peak Bronx demand. 3. So far we've seen billions of dollars spent on a subway extension that a) does not relieve the source of crowding on the line that motivates it's existence and b) does not pull xfer demand away from the meccas that are 59th and 51st. So in other words, initial return on investment is close to zero unless.... 4. This is a long con to cut service on the Lexington Av line which will have long term cost saving benefits (although at the expense of Bronx commuters). The MTA can easily point to the individual station counts in the Bronx and the boarding losses within the UES and make the case (although a terrible one) that less and trains are needed. Given that the SAS will not see greater service levels then are being provided to the existing line the loss of trains on a lengthy route like Lexington is easily preferred if it can be made up for with a slight extension of an existing low to mid frequency route. Given the cut happy nature of the MTA I can easily see this happening and this is why I was always against this project and will be closely monitoring the initial performance of it. A better idea would be to solve and crowding at it's source but the source of everything subway related has to be Manhattan so here we are. Billions of dollars spent for no improvements in the commutes of working class North Bronxites.

I'm guessing the italicized is a AM Rush thing since afterwards those things don't run close to 3 minute headways. On a side note I took the BxM7 into Co-op City from Manhattan so I did my part to reduce PM Rush demand for the Bx12.

I'm becoming quite concerned at the rate in which eastbound Bx12 SBS buses are being short-turned at Pelham Bay. In the past I would see at most one bus in an extreme bunching scenario get turned around but these days they're not afraid to end multiple trips within the same hour at PBP and keep them moving, if that even. I've seen some buses terminate there and just go out of service while the driver chills around.

It's good i'm not out there riding this route today then. The artics are sardine cans most of the time so 40 footers, yikes.

As per BusTime, 8341 is running on the Bx12 +SBS. SMH

New routes where though? There are too many high ridership routes covering Brooklyn to mess with leaving only but so much territory to place these new routes. New routes being sprung up all over the place is what you see with immature bus networks, not a mature one being purposely mismanaged.