Caelestor

There is an obsession with direct airport service, but is it actually needed? I'd favor direct LIRR service to GCT over any Airtrain, though admittedly the station cavern is way too expensive.

This is the optimal way to reduce interlining, but I was under the assumption that the Rogers Ave junction doesn't get reconstructed. Right now, there's no way for the express tracks to access Nostrand Ave without interfering with the local tracks to Flatbush. I think this plan would work if the switches were moved appropriately, though.

It's not possible to remove all interlining without affecting one-seat rides: under complete interlining, a limited number of services run with very intense service (2 minute headways or better), and let people make convenient transfers between lines, usually cross-platform: see Hong Kong. The IRT is not too difficult to deinterline. , , as is 7 Ave Express: - Eastchester or Wakefield to Flatbush Av, - Harlem 148 St to New Lots Av Lex Ave Express: - Woodlawn to Utica via Eastern Parkway Exp No service A completely interlining-free B Division is much harder to do, especially because the BMT and IND have been merged. Concourse - 8 Av Exp - Fulton: - Norwood 205 St to Ozone Park or Far Rockaway via Concourse local (peak direction rush hour exp), Fulton exp; - Bedford Park Blvd to Euclid Ave via Concourse local, Fulton local CPW Local - 6 Av Exp - Brighton: - Inwood 207 St to Coney Island ( express on Brighton) Nassau St: - Middle Village to Chambers St. as is 14 St - Canarsie: as is SAS - Broadway Exp / bridge - 4 Av Exp - Coney Island: Sea Beach, West End The remaining lines form one interconnected system: - Jamaica Center to Queens Blvd via 8 Av local, Queens Blvd exp - Jamaica Center to Coney Island via Queens Blvd exp, 63rd St, 6 Av local, Culver exp - Court Sq to Church Ave via Crosstown, Culver local - Forest Hills to Bay Ridge via Queens Blvd local, Bway local, local - Forest Hills to Church Ave via Queens Blvd local, 53rd St, 6 Av local, Culver local - Astoria to Whitehall, Bway local The routes obviously don't follow current commuting paths, but the expected benefits would a reduction in delays and more efficient use of the fleet, which would outweigh any transfer penalties.

Half the trains would run under 125 St, and the other half would run to the Bronx. Presumably, the would run under 125 St and the would be extended into the Bronx. For 125 St, the stations would be Lexington / Park Aves, Lenox Ave, St. Nicholas Ave, and Broadway, offering transfers to all existing north-south lines. I don't agree with the proposal of sending the line up 8th Ave / Concourse, since I think most riders will want to use the line to go to City College or Columbia. For the Bronx, only one line can be built since SAS is 2 tracks. The logical extension runs to Fordham before turning right and going to Co-op City via Pelham Parkway. First of all, riders already have access via a transfer at Union Square. The will offer an admittedly slower connection at Bleecker St and Herald Square. Next, I doubt that the MTA will run more service to the SAS on weekends than weekdays. 57 St is the natural terminus, but if the MTA is willing to pay, the could be extended to Roosevelt Island to enable the cross-platform transfer to the . Unlikely imo though.

I've seen some mentions of new service through Williamsburg with a connection to the SAS. Can anyone elaborate on this proposal?

I finally had the opportunity to read Appendix B of the FEIS, and here is the relevant information, sans a few emoticons. My comments in bold. Pretty much confirms what people have been discussing.

I understand the appeal of sending the SAS via the Manhattan Bridge, but I don't see a way to do it without messing up 6th Ave express service, so I'm willing to forgo the connection. There's two prevailing lines of thought regarding the SAS in Downtown Manhattan: via Nassau St or via Water St. I like the Nassau St option because it's presumably cheaper, it allows for the transfers at Fulton St, and the connection to Brooklyn via Montague St exists, but the would get messed up. The Water St option is the more expensive option, but it allows for service along a new corridor and better terminal capacity. Presumably, the line would be extended to take over the Fulton line local tracks, and perhaps Utica Ave in the long-term. I've become more receptive of the Water St option, but I do think that Hanover Sq should be located closer to South Ferry to enable a transfer; otherwise Phase 4 of SAS will underperform.

In light of the recent push for the Culver express, establishing a link between SAS and the doesn't seem so bad anymore. Makes sense. Honestly, if the Hanover Sq station was relocated under Broad St to offer a transfer to Whitehall St, Phase 4 would have much more potential. I'm actually not so certain Fulton St is easy to connect, since Schermerhorn St dead-ends at Clinton St. I think a tunnel would have to run under Atlantic Ave initially and then somehow rejoin the Fulton St line.

I don't mind the deep Chrystie option, but I'm not fond of the Water St route for a couple of reasons. Spending $2 billion on the 2 Downtown stations which are very close to other stops is disappointing, especially since neither of which offer any connections to other lines. I think Chatham Sq is fine though. More importantly, the lack of a connection via an existing tunnel to Brooklyn on the south end decreases flexibility and lowers the possibility of a 63rd St - 2nd Ave - Brooklyn service. I can't imagine another lower Manhattan - Brooklyn tunnel being built for a while. That said, I acknowledge that any alternative via Nassau St, which offers a superior route, might be too technically challenging, so I've dropped talking about Phase 4 much until Phase 3 is underway.

A complete reconfiguration of Chrystie St presumably. Some of my thoughts: The 10th St station: I'm in agreement with the other posters that it's not necessary. Under current plans, the 14th St and Houston St stations are both double-ended, with entrances at 12th and 3rd Sts respectively, so those stations are less than half a mile apart. More relevantly, adding another stop just incurs an extra $1 billion in cost and jeopardizes the project. Feasibility of express service: I doubt that SAS will ever support an express service. All the stops btwn 72nd and Houston Sts serve major intersections and destinations, so no station should be skipped. Moreover, it's unlikely that SAS will have high demand for express service, since it's going to take a long time for it to be extended to the Bronx or Brooklyn. It's better to just configure the line such that it supports 30 tph right off the bat, and if additional service is ever warranted, I would just build a 3rd Ave express service then. I'm a fan of connecting SAS to Nassau St, but I fully acknowledge doing it btwn Canal St and Houston St might not be feasible. What is the possibility of doing it btwn Grand and Chambers Sts by reusing the space containing the old Manhattan Bridge Tracks to Nassau St? The center tracks north of Chambers would be configured to fly under the NB local track. I think that somehow connecting SAS to the Culver Line may be more feasible than adding another connection to the Williamsburg Bridge, since the former is less at capacity. The BMT Eastern division trains only have 8 cars, and connecting to the IND Brooklyn lines will probably offer more potential service to more destinations in the long run.

The Second System would probably have proceeded as follows: Utica Ave line: The 6th Ave express tracks would have continued east under Williamsburg, turning south under Malcolm X Blvd to proceed to Kings Plaza. I doubt that the Worth St line would have ever been constructed, since it would change 8 Av service too much and require an additional river crossing to be built for little utility. Queens extensions: Extend the , , and Lefferts Blvd branch of the eastward. Second Avenue Subway: The Chrystie St connection would have been built, but instead the Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge tracks would feed directly into the SAS.

Interestingly enough, Fastrack is probably better than weekend constructions/reroutes for the general user: Weekend ridership has been going up dramatically, while weekday late nights are probably the least busiest time, since people need to sleep then, so Fastrack affects fewer people. Shutting down a line is way easier to communicate than reroutes, especially since multiple changes occur every weekend and the subway map is basically redrawn completely.

There's 3 options for potentially connecting Nassau St to SAS: via Delancey St: It's unlikely that SAS would stop at Bowery station itself. More importantly, there'd be no transfer at Grand St, which is needed to divert riders away from the at Bleecker St. via Canal St: The former Nassau St Loop / Manhattan Bridge tracks would be connected to SAS, preserving a transfer at Grand St. Unfortunately, either the or would have to be cut short at Chambers St, unless the current track configuration is significantly altered. via Park Row: My favorite of the 3 options would redirect the SAS below Chatham Sq to Fulton St, which is the best transfer point for Brooklyn trains in Lower Manhattan. The issue is that there's no provision for a connection to the Nassau St line, so construction would probably force the to terminate at Broad St for a while. There's also the problem of inevitably reducing service to Lower Manhattan, but I'd imagine most riders in Brooklyn want the / anyway. In any case, it's unlikely that the Nassau St option will be considered, but the Water St option is still several decades off, so it's probably best to shelve the discussion since it's not going anywhere. I'm more interested in a new service to Queens via Roosevelt Island myself.

I actually don't think Grand St station itself will need to be closed - Lex / 63 station has remained open during the SAS construction. The issue is that building SAS at the same level as the 6 Av express tracks will require cut-and-cover, causing a situation similar to the 1960s where 7 blocks of Chrystie St were completely shut down for 2 years. Of course, with enough compensation, the locals might acquiesce?

From a technical standpoint, creating a 2-platform station with cross-platform transfers and crossovers north of the station would probably be cheaper and allow for more flexible reroutes during construction reroutes and emergencies. The downside, of course, is that Chrystie St will basically have to be shut down completely, and the local shops will probably not allow for this. The SAS is less a NYC-style 4-track trunk line with express and local service, and more a WMATA-style line. Nowadays, stations are too expensive to construct due to various factors, so they're typically double-ended with exits at both ends of the platform. This speeds up construction and allows for faster service with fewer stops. The existing plan is still better than the 1970s plan, which had even fewer stations than proposed today. The station at 55 St is effectively a 57 St stop, since there will be an exit to the latter at the northern end. I also don't think it's possible to connect Hanover Sq with the tunnels either. The only way SAS will ever go into Brooklyn via Downtown is if it connects with the Nassau St line somewhere north of Fulton St, since I strongly doubt another tunnel will be built between Brooklyn and Manhattan. As a side note, I can't imagine Phase 4 will ever be built as currently proposed, since it offers very little utility for the cost.

The 55 St location is situated to avoid too much complex construction over the 53 and 59 St lines. More specifically for Phase 3: 55 St, aka Midtown North: Additional exit on 57 St, tentative but likely transfer to the at 53rd St. 42 St, aka Midtown South: Additional exit on 44/45 St, tentative but likely transfer to the at GCT. 34 St. 23 St: Additional exit at 26 St. 14 St: Additional exit at 12 St, transfer to the at 3rd Ave. Houston St: Additional exist at 3 St, transfer to the at 2nd Ave. Essentially, the maximum distance between station entrances is 8-9 blocks.

Yeah, that's one of the alternatives for the line past Fordham Plaza, though I'd imagine there would be a connection to the Concourse Yard via Bedford Park Blvd.

On the topic of express capacity: Not really needed, since SAS runs outside Manhattan's core, and won't have even half the ridership of the Lexington Ave line. Even assuming 15 tph running along 125th St, it's doubtful that more than 15 tph would run along a hypothetical Fordham Line. Crosstown lines in the Bronx won't be built, since the ridership potential won't be able to justify the cost compared to existing buses and other north-south lines need to be prioritized. On the topic of northern extensions: A 125th St spur would reduce the number of trains running into the Bronx in the future, but again, not certain if the Bronx even needs that many more trains. The logical extension via Melrose Ave and the MNR ROW to Fordham Plaza probably only needs 4 minute headways at most, considering many riders are just going to transfer to the and at 3rd Ave - 149 St. In any case, there shouldn't be a station at 125th St / 2nd Ave, since the area is too close to the river and major expressways and will have poor ridership potential. Spend the $1 billion to fast-track a tunnel under the Harlem River instead, and build an entrance to the 116th St station at 119th St. Last notes: The 125th St / Park Ave station only needs 2 tracks, since it won't forever be a terminal with a potential extension towards Broadway. I'd redirect the savings into fast-tracking the 138th St and 149th St stations along 3rd Ave. A 2-track SAS can support quite a bunch of new services actually (see below):

It would, but the idea is that more people are traveling to Midtown, so the Rockaway Branch service would be more popular than the Fulton St service. Of course, surveys would be needed to determine which is actually the case, and it's totally feasible to switch the and terminals to accommodate them.

A New Program for Action: Second Avenue Subway: Assuming phases 1, 2, and 3 are built, with room for changes in Phase 4 onwards 2 northern branches: 125th St line, 3rd St / Webster Ave / MNR ROW line (exact route undetermined) Southern branches undetermined Three services: , , : Fordham to Coney Island via Broadway express, provision for extension north to Bedford Park Blvd or east along Fordham Road : Manhattanville / 125th St (Broadway) to Lower Manhattan, provision for extension into Brooklyn : See section below Queens Bypass: Extension of 63rd St line along LIRR row to Forest Hills - 71 Ave. Not calling the line a superexpress because a few key transfer stations should be built. Two services: , . Sunnyside - 39th St: Potential station to serve projected development at the Sunnyside Yards, potential transfer to future Sunnyside LIRR / MNR station Woodside - 61st St: Transfer to the and LIRR 51st Ave: Potential station to connect to Triboro RX / extension along the Bay Ridge branch Woodhaven Blvd - Rego Park: Transfer station for the Rockaway branch Forest Hills - 71 Ave: Express station below existing station, connects to existing tracks at Union Turnpike. runs between Jamaica / 179 St and Coney Island via 6th Ave, 63rd St / Queens Bypass. Express east of Union Turnpike on weekdays, local all other times. runs the same route, serving local stations east of Forest Hills on weekdays. now runs express between Queens Plaza and Forest Hills, and local to Jamaica / 179 St. re-extended to Forest Hills to provide local service. Rockaway Branch: Reactivation of the ROW for direct Midtown service via 63rd St. Three new stations at Metropolitan Ave, Jamaica Ave, and Atlantic Ave. via Fulton St: Redirected to Rockaway Beach, Replaces Rockaway shuttle via Queens Bypass: New service from Far Rockaway via Rockaway Branch, Queens Bypass / 63rd St, and 2nd Ave to Lower Manhattan. Extension: Phase 1 of potential Triboro RX line. Extend the past Middle Village into Queens Eliot Ave (optional) 51st Ave: Transfer to the , Roosevelt Ave (Phase 2): Free transfer available to either 69 St or 75 St - Roosevelt Ave. Brooklyn extensions still under planning. Ignoring costs, comments welcome.

This is far off, but what do people think of connecting SAS to the Nassau St line? South of Grand St, the tracks would dive underneath the Manhattan Bridge tracks and connect to the tracks that were severed upon the completion of the Chrystie St connection. Pros: Existing access to Fulton Center and Brooklyn compared to a stub terminal at Hanover Square Better serves the employment centers of Downtown Likely cheaper/easier/faster to construct Cons: Only serves Chinatown at Grand St; no station at Chatham Square Does not serve Water St and eastern lower Manhattan Potential conflicts at Chambers St due to lack of flying junction Services from Queens via 63rd St would have to terminate at Chambers St

Not certain when the East River tunnels will be back, but here goes. : turns at Chambers St instead of South Ferry. / : runs in two sections. Manhattan/Bronx: Wakefield/148th St - 34th St. Brooklyn: Atlantic Ave/Nevins St - New Lots Ave/Flatbush Ave. / : no service between Bowling Green and Brooklyn. : normal service. : Express service suspended, no service between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square. Times Square : Runs overnight. : Runs in two sections. Manhattan: 207th St - WTC Local. Brooklyn/Queens: Jay St/Metrotech - Lefferts Blvd Local. Rockaway service suspended. : suspended. : normal service. : normal service, should run overnight until some of the tunnels are restored. : normal service. : Runs in two sections. Queens/Manhattan: 179th St - 2 Ave. Brooklyn: York St - Coney Island. / : Normal service. : Turn at Lorimer St. : Service between Manhattan and Brooklyn should run overnight until the L is restored. : Normal service, though the Sea Beach line did flood pretty badly earlier today. : Normal service. : Runs in two sections. Queens/Manhattan: Forest Hills - Whitehall St. Brooklyn: Jay St/Metrotech - Bay Ridge. Let's hope nothing bad happens at DeKalb Ave, because if service is suspended there, no one is getting from Brooklyn into Manhattan.

Actually, just send the down to Whitehall St and not bother with the . More riders than riders anyway.

Every one of the tunnels? The Bronx is pretty much screwed in any circumstances, but here goes. is unaffected. runs in 2 sections, entirely local: 149th St/Grand Concourse - Wakefield/241 St & Borough Hall - Flatbush Ave. Headways dramatically increased. runs in 2 sections: Harlem/148th St - Chambers St via express & Borough Hall - New Lots Ave via local. Headways dramatically increased. runs in 2 sections: 149th St/Grand Concourse - Woodlawn & 125th St - Bowling Green via express. service reduced to a shuttle btween 180th St - Eastchester/Dyre Avenue. runs in 2 sections: 125th St - Bklyn Bridge & 3rd Ave - Pelham Bay Park. service truncated from Times Square to Hunters Point Ave. 139th St/Grand Concourse and the stations btwn Hoyt Street & Park Place (except Borough Hall) on the / are closed. Meanwhile... extended to Bedford Park Blvd at all times. Now operates on weekends and overnight. runs local north of 145th St at all times. Old <M> revived, to Bay Parkway during rush hours & other times to 9th Avenue. train revived and extended to Church Ave at all times. Broadway service restored to pre-2010 levels (i.e. train revived).

Hi, you are amazing at this. Do you mind if you could make two signs with the following: Sign 1: Downtown and Brooklyn to Coney Island via Bridge Broadway Express via Brighton Local, All Times. Broadway Express via 4th Ave Express & Sea Beach Local. Late nights take to Dekalb Ave for . Sign 2: Downtown and Brooklyn via Tunnel Broadway Local to Bay Ridge-95th St via 4th Ave Local. Late Nights take to 59th St for . Broadway Local to Whitehall St-South Ferry. Late Nights Extended to Coney Island via Tunnel, 4th Ave Local, & Sea Beach. Actually, I wouldn't mind having all 4 routes on one sign.