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Curve south of Grand Central


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What is the reason for the ridiculously sharp turn and crest just south of the Grand Central station on the Lexington Avenue Line? Was there a building there or utilities which had to be avoided when the line was constructed? I believe cut and cover was used at the time, correct? Anyone who knows the line well will agree that it's almost funny to see one tourist after another smash into each other like bowling pins when they're not prepared for the hard cut.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the sharp turns at both ends of Grand Central are the result of the trains turning onto 42nd St from Lexington Ave (north end of station), and then turning onto Park Ave South at the other end of the station. The present station is located under 42nd St itself, not on Lexington Ave or Park Ave. The original IRT station ,which now houses the shuttle, was also directly under 42nd St although it is located further west on the street. The Grand Central Terminal building itself sits on 42nd St just north of the shuttle platform so when the Lexington line we have today was built it was built around the terminal. Remember the original IRT never traveled on Lexington Ave but on 4th Ave and Park Ave and turned westward on 42nd St. When the expansion of the IRT was done the train had to turn eastward from Park Ave and then north on Lexington Ave. That's the reason for the curves in that area.

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There's a whole bunch on the Nassau Lines. If a 75 footer went through that, it would be catastrophic.

 

Thats why they cant go past Fulton Street...

 

If you ever ride a R42 (J) OR (Z)ebra train N/B Leaving Broad Street if you are quick just before Fulton Street you will see a "10" car stop marker and a sign saying...

 

"No 75 ft trains allowed past this point".

 

Since there is a switch north of Broad Street, if by some reason if a 75 ft train happens to wind up at Broad Street they can turn it just north of the station back south.

 

If a 75 footer goes into Fulton Street lets just say think about the movie Die Hard With A Vengence when that number (3) train got up and close with the platorm .....:eek:

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the sharp turns at both ends of Grand Central are the result of the trains turning onto 42nd St from Lexington Ave (north end of station), and then turning onto Park Ave South at the other end of the station. The present station is located under 42nd St itself, not on Lexington Ave or Park Ave. The original IRT station ,which now houses the shuttle, was also directly under 42nd St although it is located further west on the street. The Grand Central Terminal building itself sits on 42nd St just north of the shuttle platform so when the Lexington line we have today was built it was built around the terminal. Remember the original IRT never traveled on Lexington Ave but on 4th Ave and Park Ave and turned westward on 42nd St. When the expansion of the IRT was done the train had to turn eastward from Park Ave and then north on Lexington Ave. That's the reason for the curves in that area.

 

Thats what i thought as well when i was in the A Div....

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That's an excellent point, especially for passenger trains due to arrive at Grand Central Terminal. Just north of the 59th Street emergency exit, trains are forced to decelerate for a "Normal" speed of 60 mph to a "Restricted" speed of 15 mph. Every morning when I hear the ATC beep, I grab a hold of the horizontal bar in the vestibule and prepare for a heavy brake application. That's aside from some of the swift cuts the train makes just south of the entrance to the Park Avenue viaduct while traveling in Normal mode.

 

 

Haha you too? The non normal riders who don't know about this can be somewhat of a show if they are standing and not holding to anything.

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There's a whole bunch on the Nassau Lines. If a 75 footer went through that, it would be catastrophic.
Thats why they cant go past Fulton Street...

 

If you ever ride a R42 (J) OR (Z)ebra train N/B Leaving Broad Street if you are quick just before Fulton Street you will see a "10" car stop marker and a sign saying...

 

"No 75 ft trains allowed past this point".

 

Since there is a switch north of Broad Street, if by some reason if a 75 ft train happens to wind up at Broad Street they can turn it just north of the station back south.

 

If a 75 footer goes into Fulton Street lets just say think about the movie Die Hard With A Vengence when that number (3) train got up and close with the platorm .....:eek:

 

75 footes can go through Nassau St. I once even saw a 46 in the Chambers relay tracks, for a movie shoot, speaking of movies.

You could suggest they were brought in through the Chrystie st. end, but then it says "no 75 foot cars" there as well.

they even considered using 68's (in OPTO service) on the shuttle that ran when the bridge was closed.

 

The sign north of Broad may be so that there is no chance of them reaching Essex and being mistaken for someone else, and sent over the bridge. So they try to get it out of there right away. Others have suggested cosmetic stuff added more recently, such as new tunnel lights sticking out.

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75 footes can go through Nassau St. I once even saw a 46 in the Chambers relay tracks, for a movie shoot, speaking of movies.

You could suggest they were brought in through the Chrystie st. end, but then it says "no 75 foot cars" there as well.

they even considered using 68's (in OPTO service) on the shuttle that ran when the bridge was closed.

 

The sign north of Broad may be so that there is no chance of them reaching Essex and being mistaken for someone else, and sent over the bridge. So they try to get it out of there right away. Others have suggested cosmetic stuff added more recently, such as new tunnel lights sticking out.

 

Is it the length of a single car itself that poses a problem in some of those curves, or could a short consist (4) of 75' cars run through there without any issues?

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It's the length of single cars that's the problem. If a single car will clear, a train will. If a train won't clear, a single car won't either.

 

It has to do with "center excess" and "end excess"

 

End excess = the amount the front and rear of the train overhang the track on the OUTside of a curve

 

Center excess = the amount the center of the train overhangs the track on the INside of the curve

 

Those issues are why 75 footers can't run in certain sections...either their profile would come into contact with the tunnel wall (or a station or other infrastructure), or a train on the track next to it.

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It's the length of single cars that's the problem. If a single car will clear, a train will. If a train won't clear, a single car won't either.

 

It has to do with "center excess" and "end excess"

 

End excess = the amount the front and rear of the train overhang the track on the OUTside of a curve

 

Center excess = the amount the center of the train overhangs the track on the INside of the curve

 

Those issues are why 75 footers can't run in certain sections...either their profile would come into contact with the tunnel wall (or a station or other infrastructure), or a train on the track next to it.

 

 

Allow me to ride your jock for a second... but that's one of the most clearly-explained responses to a question about trains that I've ever received.

 

Thank you, Sir. :tup::tup:

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There is this little "kink" from Gun Hill Road to 219th Street on the (2) northbound that T/O's tend to go full throttle on, everyone in every car feels it. I don't know if there's a speed limit there though. My friend fell so many times because of that kink.

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Allow me to ride your jock for a second... but that's one of the most clearly-explained responses to a question about trains that I've ever received.

 

Thank you, Sir. :tup::tup:

 

LOL unless you got one of these next to your name...

 

Female.gif

 

...I'd prefer you not ride my jock. :P but you're welcome

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Going back to an earlier post about using a radar gun on the trains... how is that done? I would assume it would be the last car that is tagged with the gun, but are these guns actually mounted and remotely-operated, or is there a human standing on a platform or an emergency exit or whatever who is tagging the trains?

 

And the real question is... where does the train pull over so the operator can receive his/her speeding ticket? :confused:

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Going back to an earlier post about using a radar gun on the trains... how is that done? I would assume it would be the last car that is tagged with the gun, but are these guns actually mounted and remotely-operated, or is there a human standing on a platform or an emergency exit or whatever who is tagging the trains?

 

And the real question is... where does the train pull over so the operator can receive his/her speeding ticket? :confused:

 

They usually have it set up coming into a station where there is a speed restriction.

 

Someone at the begining of the station with the gun and someone at the end to give you your "ticket", warn you or say "attaboy"...

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Wasn't the (D) required to use the Chrystie Street connector? It's always used R68s, so it had to go onto the bridge in order to relay to the southbound track.

 

Yea, the (D) did use the Chrystie Street connection but that was long before there were 75' cars. The came down from the Bronx, down 6th Av, and u into Essex St.

img_7065.jpg

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There were 75 foot cars: the 44's. Problem is, I don't remember them ever doing that move with them (I remember 32's and 42's), but the 44's were on in the same period when they used to reroute that way.

 

Oh yes, I know that they ran on the Eastern Div.

I think this was a fan trip, but no matter what that train had to come over the Williamsburg bridge.

Subwayr46freshpond-1.jpg

Not my photo.

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They usually have it set up coming into a station where there is a speed restriction.

 

Someone at the begining of the station with the gun and someone at the end to give you your "ticket", warn you or say "attaboy"...

 

I thought the radar gun thing was a joke.. I guess it's never in the same place?

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Oh yes, I know that they ran on the Eastern Div.

I think this was a fan trip, but no matter what that train had to come over the Williamsburg bridge.

Subwayr46freshpond-1.jpg

Not my photo.

That was actually my scan of a printout of the photo which was online a long time ago.

 

The point wasn't whether they ever crossed the bridge. That was a special occaion, where they had to stop service going in the other way; but otherwise, 75 foot cars aren't allowed anywhere near the bridge. So I'm not sure whether they ever did that move with 44's, or perhaps back then, they weren't as strict about keeping them completely out of Essex St and the Nassau line like today.

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That was actually my scan of a printout of the photo which was online a long time ago.

 

The point wasn't whether they ever crossed the bridge. That was a special occaion, where they had to stop service going in the other way; but otherwise, 75 foot cars aren't allowed anywhere near the bridge. So I'm not sure whether they ever did that move with 44's, or perhaps back then, they weren't as strict about keeping them completely out of Essex St and the Nassau line like today.

 

Ah, thats you scan, great photo.

 

Well this was taken back in the 70's and it was a very different TA back then.

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