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N-Trizzy2609

Should NJ Transit Extend Service into Queens and The Bronx?

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In order to relieve tight congestion at Penn before the new ARC tunnel is finished. Should NJ Transit build a temporary extension of service into The Bronx? I propose four new temporary stations along the NEC to The Bronx. Station stops would be:

Sunnyside/Queens Blvd

Astoria

Hunts Point/Westchester Av.

Pelham Bay Park/Co-op City

 

These station would help Penn Station to breathe.

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Maybe the Sunnyside and Astoria stations would help, but certainly not the ones north of Hell Gate. You also have to consider that temporary stations aren't just wooden platforms and shelters so they'll each cost up to the high hundred thousands.

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In order to relieve tight congestion at Penn before the new ARC tunnel is finished. Should NJ Transit build a temporary extension of service into The Bronx? I propose four new temporary stations along the NEC to The Bronx. Station stops would be:

Sunnyside/Queens Blvd

Astoria

Hunts Point/Westchester Av.

Pelham Bay Park/Co-op City

 

These station would help Penn Station to breathe.

 

Ok i answer it. I am sure our regional train expert Metsfan will add his 2cents as well. On your Sunnyside idea actually the MTA agrees w/ you and if and when the LIRR ESA extension to Grand Central is done there are already plans to bulid a new "Sunnyside' station by the rail yards.

A 'better' temporary solution imo instead would be to 1)send more (NJT)trains to Hoboken and 2) extend the 33rd Street line on Path to Newark-Penn Station as well. Both are much cheaper and easier.

 

As far as extending any (NJT)NJRailines i say 'no' until the ESA is finished. The reasons is that the LIRR is already filled to capcity between NY-Penn and Jamica. Ditto for Amtrak as well.

 

Long term as far bulidng new stations in Queens/Bronx, IMO it should be only if and when (MTA)Metro North is extended to Penn Station. Those '4' stations you proposed should be permament and would be better served by Metro North New Haven/Stamford line trains going to Penn Station.

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Id Send it Maybe to West Farms Road and Westchester? Since thats like a central bus connection for that Area, and I like the Idea of Pelham Pay Park.

 

Maybe add one for for Fodham Plaza, as connections include: Bx9, Bx12, Bx12+SBS, Bx15, Bx17, Bx22, Bx34[Near], Bx41, Bx55LTD, W60, W61, W62(Allows passangers from NJT to connect with Westchester Buses)

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Simply put it, no! Add those stations you said to the LIRR/MNR. Let NJT focus on service in NJ. Besides NJ Transit is only allowed to have one stop outside of New Jersey on a route anyway(I think its diffent with the bus system). Those NJ Trains in the AM rush do go out to Queens.... in sunnyside yard.

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Besides NJ Transit is only allowed to have one stop outside of New Jersey on a route anyway

 

NJT actually has two stops located out of New Jersey, not counting MNR west of Hudson service -- the other is Philadelphia-30th Street.

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NJT actually has two stops located out of New Jersey, not counting MNR west of Hudson service -- the other is Philadelphia-30th Street.

 

I meant in one route, like for example the NJT NEC route can't stop both at NYP and philly 30th street station.

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No. This is encroaching on MTA territory. Also how would this help with ARC? That does not relieve any congestion as ARC is to Get some NJT trains out of Penn Station this plan calls for trains to still go through Penn.

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I agree with (:((K) that it would possibly make NYP more train filled, however, there are indeed several abandoned stations that could be rebuilt, and when ARC is complete handed over to (MTA).

 

There are even stations along park ave that were built but closed. One at 59th st for example. I think it would be more useful though to rebuild sunnyside into its former glory, it only has tracks on about half the land it used to. I think this expansion would much better serve both amtk, (NJT) and (MTA), when they start puling trains through up the hudson line via empire connection and for meadowlands events. When catenary is added to the empire tunnel and west side line, it will then be possible for all kinds of service patterns, but for now i think a simple sunnyside yard expansion would be benificial.

 

When the M8's are delivered i hope (MTA) rebuilds some stations along the park ave ROW. The old stations were meant to board 2 end doors, and were very small, however you could lengthen the stations on the elevated potions easily, and i'd say worthwhile to re-open a lengthened 59th st station, connect via passageway to subway, and to the street. This would help relieve congestion before (T) starts running a tiny bit too i think.

 

- A

Edited by metsfan

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ARC will not be handed over to the MTA at any point. It is a NJT and PANYNJ project. The best I could think of for a project like the one being proposed here is for the LIRR at this point in time. Not to mention MNCR as of now has no intentions of running any trains into NYP. To do this the M8's would need some significant work done to them. So I would not hold my breath on that. Also lets wait until the M8's are on property before they come into the mix!

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It's not to congest Penn Station even more. Think about it this way. Not one more train is going to be added or subtracted. The same amount of current train would be used. It would just get train in and out of Penn Station just so they won't linger there blocking other NJ Transit or Amtrak trains. It would be treated as a short 7-8 min stop then it takes off to The Bronx. As for the (MTA) stepping in. This actually might get on their good side since it take passenger stright to The Bronx. More passengers on the Bx12 SBS. More customers using the (6)<6>. More ridership on the (7)<7>. Also it can be a great alternative to getting to Queens. Plus the Temp station would be owned by the (MTA) but it would operated by NJ Transit. It's only temporary. By 2015, it would be gone.

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Amtrak and NJT trains come in and go right out except for those on the stub tracks(1-4). Nothing just sits it cannot afford too. Also making those proposed stops will screw up traffic inbound to Penn from Sunnyside, and the last thing needed is more delays because a train deadheding to Penn from Sunnyside got stuck behind a local making stops. That leaves angry commuters in NYP.

 

Also thinking about the influx of riders who get on in NYP to find they don't have an empty train and now have their chances of getting a seat screwed even more by the few riders who got on at another station further up the line. That will not make them happy. I don't know about you but after working a few months in the city and commuting back and forth if I didn't get a seat and had to stand I got pretty pissed. Standing is not fun, one of the reasons when I had my job in the city I decided take the PATH over to Hoboken and pick up a 2300 series train was just so I knew I would have a seat. After a long day working there is nothing like having a seat and being able to fall asleep.

 

This plan seems like a fail to me. Let Metro North or the LIRR deal with this when the time comes. Don't get already crowded NJT trains involved.

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Amtrak and NJT trains come in and go right out except for those on the stub tracks(1-4). Nothing just sits it cannot afford too. Also making those proposed stops will screw up traffic inbound to Penn from Sunnyside, and the last thing needed is more delays because a train deadheding to Penn from Sunnyside got stuck behind a local making stops. That leaves angry commuters in NYP.

 

Also thinking about the influx of riders who get on in NYP to find they don't have an empty train and now have their chances of getting a seat screwed even more by the few riders who got on at another station further up the line. That will not make them happy. I don't know about you but after working a few months in the city and commuting back and forth if I didn't get a seat and had to stand I got pretty pissed. Standing is not fun, one of the reasons when I had my job in the city I decided take the PATH over to Hoboken and pick up a 2300 series train was just so I knew I would have a seat. After a long day working there is nothing like having a seat and being able to fall asleep.

 

This plan seems like a fail to me. Let Metro North or the LIRR deal with this when the time comes. Don't get already crowded NJT trains involved.

 

Perfectly said. When the Hudson River Tunnel project is finished the only line (NJT) railline imo that might make some sense to extend to Jamaica is the Raritan Valley line since a high number of people travel reguarly via car between Rockland/Bergen Counties and Long Island.

 

Other than that, a better solution is to send a couple of :nec: :njc: trains to Hoboken during rush hours and also send more 33rd Street trains to Newark-Penn Station.

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Perfectly said. When the Hudson River Tunnel project is finished the only line (NJT) railline imo that might make some sense to extend to Jamaica is the Raritan Valley line since a high number of people travel reguarly via car between Rockland/Bergen Counties and Long Island.

 

Other than that, a better solution is to send a couple of :nec: :njc: trains to Hoboken during rush hours and also send more 33rd Street trains to Newark-Penn Station.

 

You mean :pvl: not :rvl:. When PC ruled the rails a lot of these crazy ideas were possible. Now that it has been divided into transit agencies not as likely even with the most "common sense" situations. Since 1946 no one has given a second thought to rail funding, even though the rails & ties in the us won the civil war for the north, and both world wars, and made the us the industrial powerhouse of the world.

 

Now everyone sits at a desk or stands behind a counter and drives an automobile and they really don't think about it or see the train as a solution to any of their problems, when in most cases the neglect of the legacy of passenger rail is why it's so hard to go back to those golden years. Big developers get zoning changes in weeks or at the most a few years to build huge whatever they want to make money off of, when rail transportation minimally takes years. One family, a wealthy family ironically descended from a man heavily involved with the PRR is blocking rail service back to newtown from philadelphia, a service offered from 1896 to 1983. NIMBY, ignorance, and misplaced worries stop real progress while thousands of acres a year are cut down to build new wal marts and houses. Pretty messed up.

 

As for (NJT) & its operating limits, honestly its the maximum trains per hour capacity vs demand, and the MTPH cap is far too low. If NYP had a whole second level it might buy us another 100 years, but ARC is a step in the right direction. When WT#3 goes active, it will be possible to decommission the tunnel in the way of trackage to GCT, re-route it to a deeper tunnel for return to service.

 

(NJT) needs only permission from its board of directors and wherever it plans to operate its trains to have service there, it isn't limited to one station per line, it simply happened that way when conrail got out of the pax rail arena. :pvl: has several stations in NY, and there are plans to have (NJT) service to PA on 2 old lines, one very close to being funded into re-activation.

 

So you see, there is a grand picture here with many parts to it, political, geographical, financial, sociological... it all has to fit & work & make sense.

 

- A

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The plan as it stands once the dual modes come on board is to run some Bayhead-NYP, Raritan-NYP and probably some Port Jervis or Suffern and of course Spring Valley-NYP trains. But will have to wait until the dualmodes are built on property actually working and the loops are built so that trains off the MBCL and PVL may access NYPE(ARC Station) or NYP.

 

There are alot of things that will happen plus there are supposed to be slots for expanded service in NYPE. NJCL and NEC trains for the most part will remain in NYP using the existing slots minus a few given back to Amtrak.

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As Metsfan wrote, 'when PC ruled the rails' was the lost opportunity of a single entity with no political limitation to run trains through NYP anywhere.

Trains could be run through from say New Haven or New Canaan to South Amboy or Princeton, or anywhere compatible equipment could run. Even crew seniority could have been merged, or mileage shared on a prorated basis. Even through service to and from the LIRR could have been arranged with new dual or tri-power equipment.

Imagine the efficiency of running as many trains as possible from New Jersey to Long Island or Connecticut? The reduced dwell times, deadhead moves, and etc. at NYP? Not to mention less storage space required at Sunnyside or the West Side?

Sure it could be done today, and with the Empire Line and Midtown Direct...even more possibilities. But with all the entities now involved, and each jealously guarding their own bureacracies, such a pipedream would surely be 'mission impossible'.

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The plan as it stands once the dual modes come on board is to run some Bayhead-NYP, Raritan-NYP and probably some Port Jervis or Suffern and of course Spring Valley-NYP trains. But will have to wait until the dualmodes are built on property actually working and the loops are built so that trains off the MBCL and PVL may access NYPE(ARC Station) or NYP.

 

There are alot of things that will happen plus there are supposed to be slots for expanded service in NYPE. NJCL and NEC trains for the most part will remain in NYP using the existing slots minus a few given back to Amtrak.

 

I plan to be on the first 45 powered train. :cool:

 

As Metsfan wrote, 'when PC ruled the rails' was the lost opportunity of a single entity with no political limitation to run trains through NYP anywhere.

Trains could be run through from say New Haven or New Canaan to South Amboy or Princeton, or anywhere compatible equipment could run. Even crew seniority could have been merged, or mileage shared on a prorated basis. Even through service to and from the LIRR could have been arranged with new dual or tri-power equipment.

Imagine the efficiency of running as many trains as possible from New Jersey to Long Island or Connecticut? The reduced dwell times, deadhead moves, and etc. at NYP? Not to mention less storage space required at Sunnyside or the West Side?

Sure it could be done today, and with the Empire Line and Midtown Direct...even more possibilities. But with all the entities now involved, and each jealously guarding their own bureacracies, such a pipedream would surely be 'mission impossible'.

 

It will happen again, when the demand calls for it.

 

- A

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I would think it would be beneficial to take a survey of Bronx residents to check the level of demand for this service. It would be interesting to have a way for Bronxites to get to New Jersey without having to go through Manhattan, such as a cross-Hudson rail line.

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I would think it would be beneficial to take a survey of Bronx residents to check the level of demand for this service. It would be interesting to have a way for Bronxites to get to New Jersey without having to go through Manhattan, such as a cross-Hudson rail line.

 

I think honestly a tappan zee rail link with :pvl: into GCT would be better than through NYP over the connecting railroad.

 

- A

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I know what those counties are like in that area of NY, and i have to say we need strict zoning in place before any high capacity rail line goes through.

 

- A

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There's a rumor that the Tappan Zee will be rebuilt and there'll be direct rail service from Rockland to GCT

 

That can only come in a replacement. Right now, the Tappan Zee bridge is nothing more than a crumbling snake built from a steel shortage era dating to the Korean War. The only way in can accomodate trains is by having an additional level with a much stronger structure. The new bridge if built would most likely utilize a cable-stayed or suspension design to increase rigidity of accomodating both passenger cars and diesel-powered trains.

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That can only come in a replacement. Right now, the Tappan Zee bridge is nothing more than a crumbling snake built from a steel shortage era dating to the Korean War. The only way in can accomodate trains is by having an additional level with a much stronger structure. The new bridge if built would most likely utilize a cable-stayed or suspension design to increase rigidity of accomodating both passenger cars and diesel-powered trains.

 

The bridge is slated for replacement, original rebuilding plans were abandoned because of yes the rail link, which would also help freight traffic, but also the approaches are going to be different and new as well, and you have safety concerns, people jumping.

 

Any cable stayed bridge would need 2 double towers, north tower A & B and south tower A & B, then the same on the other side of the river. Make it much stronger than it will ever need to be, especially because of trains using it. I just hope they get crackin'!

 

- A

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Oh man, I saw an NJ Transit train pass through the Bronx on the Amtrak corridor! It was one of those double decker ones, too, but I didn't have my camera!

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Oh man, I saw an NJ Transit train pass through the Bronx on the Amtrak corridor! It was one of those double decker ones, too, but I didn't have my camera!

 

:) That's a meadowlands event shuttle test train. MNRR crews training on them to get the feel of operating new & different equipment.

 

(F)red (G) got some photos of it also in the (NJT) forum i believe.

 

- A

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