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mark1447

Ending (7) Local at Mets/Roosevelt station

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This is post is about Flushing/Pelham line, lets not go off topic with something else, Thanks!

 

How come the Flushing Local cant end at this station when the Flushing Express is in Service, to allow the Flushing Exp to have its own station which would be Main St. Then turn and go back to TSQ.

 

Similar to the (6)Pelham Local which ends at Parkchester E177th, Weschester Ave and the Pelham Express Makes all stops from Parkchester to Pelham Bay Park. Pelham Local Turns at Parkchester for City Hall, while some head to Westchester Yard.

 

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If u gonna comment about the station title name, just ignore I know what the name is....

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Probably because Pelham Bay Park has 2 tracks and Main street has 3. Since main street has 3 tracks it can handle express and local service but PBP only has 2 so it can't handle express and local. just a guess.

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That's my guess as well. Flushing can handle both local and express service but with the (6)/<6> there are only two tracks at Pelham. Not sure either if the (4)/<4> will work either if trains have to short-turn at Burnside or have to go back to the yard.

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There isn't a good terminating procedure at Willets Point. To get the (7)s back to the local track, you CAN terminate them on the middle track, but here's where the problem kicks in: if <7>s come from Main St on M track, they'll be delayed by (7) trains turning around. If they come in from Main St on the local track, they'll have to cross to the express track, right in front of (7) trains that will have to cross back to the local track. That's a disaster waiting to happen. During the PM rush, (7) and <7> trains would again have to cross in front of each other to get to their respective tracks. And those switches over there are D15 if I recall correctly. I've seen this happen, because at 8 AM, a (7) terminates at Willets Point, turns right back around and enters service at 111th St. But, until it's gone, all trains are pretty much delayed because neither the local nor the express track is fully open, 3 trains are waiting at Main St to go to Manhattan, and the Main St-bound train can't move either. The (7)/<7> as a whole run too frequently for this to not create a bottleneck, because in some ways, Main St is already a bottleneck in itself.

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Or turn all of locals at 111 St. with the yard lead. Some terminate there anyway already.

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The real bottleneck is the section in manhattan with only 2 tracks. I appreciate and think the GCT station is very cool (former streetcar terminal w/ loop), but it could be modified and rebuilt to handle 2 platforms and 3 tracks. Same with tsq. If you're adding length to a line, you should also make more of it express as it gets longer.

 

- A

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There isn't a good terminating procedure at Willets Point. To get the (7)s back to the local track, you CAN terminate them on the middle track, but here's where the problem kicks in: if <7>s come from Main St on M track, they'll be delayed by (7) trains turning around. If they come in from Main St on the local track, they'll have to cross to the express track, right in front of (7) trains that will have to cross back to the local track. That's a disaster waiting to happen. During the PM rush, (7) and <7> trains would again have to cross in front of each other to get to their respective tracks. And those switches over there are D15 if I recall correctly. I've seen this happen, because at 8 AM, a (7) terminates at Willets Point, turns right back around and enters service at 111th St. But, until it's gone, all trains are pretty much delayed because neither the local nor the express track is fully open, 3 trains are waiting at Main St to go to Manhattan, and the Main St-bound train can't move either. The (7)/<7> as a whole run too frequently for this to not create a bottleneck, because in some ways, Main St is already a bottleneck in itself.

 

So? The Pelham Express<6> pulls in to E177th St and the Pelham Local(6) sits and wait for the Pelham Exp to go by.

 

You can hold the (7) Local at 111 and let the <7> pass by and cross to Local and the (7) Local ends on Exp.

 

And if that dont help, build a switch track north of Mets that way the (7) would do the same thing as the (6)

 

 

Or turn all of locals at 111 St. with the yard lead. Some terminate there anyway already.

 

Thats a bad idea, then no transfers to the Flushing Exp for Main St. Some trains end there for Corona storage

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So? The Pelham Express<6> pulls in to E177th St and the Pelham Local(6) sits and wait for the Pelham Exp to go by.

 

You can hold the (7) Local at 111 and let the <7> pass by and cross to Local and the (7) Local ends on Exp.

 

And if that dont help, build a switch track north of Mets that way the (7) would do the same thing as the (6)

 

 

I only see building the switch working. Otherwise, I see the headways clogging up that area.

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Also remember that ALL Manhattan bound trains use the side platform closer to Citi Field. Terminating the (7) at Mets-Willets Point will inconvenience passengers who want the local from Main Street as they would have to get off and wait at Junction (or even at Mets-Willets) instead of having a one seat ride.

 

So? The Pelham Express<6> pulls in to E177th St and the Pelham Local(6) sits and wait for the Pelham Exp to go by.

 

The difference is, the (6) is OOS at that point, so they can do that. The (7) would be pulling back out in service, and blocking service.

 

You can hold the (7) Local at 111 and let the <7> pass by and cross to Local and the (7) Local ends on Exp.

 

And hold up the entire local line.

 

Building a switch track will cost quite a bit and require service-crippling GOs when you connect the new tracks to the existing tracks.

 

The best way to do it is the way they are doing it now, all trains terminating at Main St. It's simpler that way.

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The real bottleneck is the section in manhattan with only 2 tracks. I appreciate and think the GCT station is very cool (former streetcar terminal w/ loop), but it could be modified and rebuilt to handle 2 platforms and 3 tracks. Same with tsq. If you're adding length to a line, you should also make more of it express as it gets longer.

 

- A

 

But The Steinway Tunnels still have 2 tracks, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

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This wouldn't work because of the track layout. The express would be delayed in both directions because of the local waiting for the line up on the middle track. I see two ways you can turn trains at Willets Pt. - one involving terminating at the Queens-bound local track and then picking up passengers on the middle track before turning back on the Manhattan-bound local track. The other plan would have the train cross over on the middle track, terminate and then switch to the Manhattan-bound local track.

 

Problem with the first situation - This would not work in the PM rush. The locals would be going in the oppposite direction on the middle track than the expresses headed to flushing. If the express switches to the local track then that will hold back a local train about to terminate because local AND express service separately is still very frequent.

 

Problem with the second situation - This would heavily back up express trains headed to Flushing, with the train spending anywhere from 2-4 minutes on the express track terminating.

 

Also, Flushing has the capacity for both services and a lot of people on both the local and express are headed to Flushing.

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Guys you really forgot one more thing, only the local stops at 74th Street and that is a major transfer point. If passengers get on that train only to find it terminating at Mets-Willets Point, one station shy of Main, how would they feel?

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I don't see why it would be much different from the setup at Parkchester. In both cases, the locals and expresses have to cross over each other from express to local and back.

The difference is that the switching is before the station instead of after it. that would eliminate the relay, and the need to clean out passengers, and it can come in and go out (with crew change).

 

I hear them on the radio, and they are always on the fly telling people expecting to go to Main to end at 111, and telling people who expect to end at 111 to go through to Main, so it's not working as orderly as it is scheduled anyway, so they might as well just turn one of the services at Willets. (That would be better than 111, which does require a relay. I remember two years ago (when it got hot in the spring; total contrast to this summer) posting on a switching job in that little dispatcher booth they have there, and it is no fun in the heat!

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But The Steinway Tunnels still have 2 tracks, so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

Well i meant tear them into a 3 track loading gauge. There isn't much in the way of an expansion aside from $.

 

- A

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I don't think that's a good idea, I think as the rest brought this before, most people boarding at major points such as Roosevelt Avenue on the (E)(F)(G)(R)(V) wouldn't like the idea of having to transfer extra to the <7> just to go to Flushing. Track setup at Mets Willets Point wouldn't even allow a (7) local to terminate there, since the express <7> trains use the middle track. I think that would cause more harm than good.

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Reason is during the rush hours, the (7)and<7> has a 90 second headway. The 6 and <6>, has an 3 minute headway, at Parkchester. That means from Pelham, there is a 6 minute headway between the express trains, and at Parchester a 6 minute headway between the locals. At Parkchester, if a local is in the station, 3 minutes later and express suppose to come in, then 3 minutes after the express, a local comes in from track M, etc.....

 

On the (7)<7>, the headways are just far too tight............

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They do terminate trains at Willets Point in both the AM & PM Rush.

 

During the AM all local and express trains use the Manhattan bound local track from Main St to Willets Point. Express trains move to middle track after Willets Point. This allows Flushing bound trains terminate at Willets Point. Some Flushing bound trains end at 111th St in the AM also. If you get on one of the trains ending at Shea or 111th you have to wait for the next train going to Main St.

 

During the PM rush some local trains terminate at Willets Point on the Flushing bound local track. They turn back around and head to yard (I assume?).

 

...most people boarding at major points such as Roosevelt Avenue on the (E)(F)(G)(R)(V) wouldn't like the idea of having to transfer extra to the <7> just to go to Flushing.

 

Everyone who was on the Flushing bound local train that terminated at Shea have to wait for an express train to come in. People may not like it but that's the way it is.

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I don't think that's a good idea, I think as the rest brought this before, most people boarding at major points such as Roosevelt Avenue on the (E)(F)(G)(R)(V) wouldn't like the idea of having to transfer extra to the <7> just to go to Flushing. Track setup at Mets Willets Point wouldn't even allow a (7) local to terminate there, since the express <7> trains use the middle track. I think that would cause more harm than good.

People boarding at Roosevelt who happen to get on a train going only to 111 (scheduled, or turned there because of congestion) would be faced with the inconvenience anyway. Also, there are switches to/from the express before Willets, so theuy could cross over each other, and the local terminate on the express track, and the expresses continue on the local to Main.

What DOB2RTO said would be the more likely reason they couldn't do it.

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