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traildriver

Alternate to ESA?

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I was just thinking about the ESA project and wondered if there was a reason the LIRR couldn't have built a connection off the 33rd street tunnels that would simply go north under Park Avenue, below the subway or Madison Avenue and enter GCT from the south?

An added benefit would be the possibility of future through service from LI to the Harlem Div. if they could have adaptable equipment.

 

 

Then Grand Central Terminal could properly be called Grand Central Station! :)

Edited by traildriver
addendum

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For one there is no 3rd rail on the bridges or connecting tracks, and they aren't going to put it in just to take a 30+ minute detour for LIRR. Second, top & bottom contact 3rd rail isn't compatible. Third, the park ave tunnel, while not anywhere near capacity, is only 2 tracks, and adding LIRR service would only complicate scheduling.

 

ESA was planned in the late 50's early 60's, but only now being completed. If it were built on schedule originally, LIRR would have been newly under (NYCT) jurisdiction, with MNRR still being under PC. So, at the time, connecting the 2 was not seen as a huge priority especially with (at the time) steadily declining ridership.

 

LIRR and PC closed or simply stopped serving many, many, many stations during this time period, exacerbating the falling passenger interest situation

 

Since 1996 rail usage has been up every year, even after 9/11 and terrorist fears numbers keep going up, so the project is now obviously a priority.

 

It is very unweildy to ride LIRR into NYP, then have to find (A)(C)(E)/(1)(2)(3) (preferably IRT since its on 7th ave), then navigate times square station to find the (S) to GCT especially with luggage/bags. If you get on the (A)(C)(E) you have the added pleasure of a block long passageway with a very long incline to it before even entering the tsq station itself.

 

Doing this will also allow more (NJT) and amtk trains per hour at NYP while actually cutting a few minutes off travel time due to the closer location of GCT to long island.

 

- A

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I don't understand how your reply is answering my question, other than the third rail differences. What detour are you referring to? It sounds like you think I mean for LI trains to go over the Hell Gate Bridge then back down to GCT via freight trackage or New Rochelle? Not at all.....I mean for an LIRR train to exit the 33rd street tunnel from the East River, make a right turn at a new junction under Park Avenue (below the subway), or if easier under Madison Avenue then angle back under the lower level GCT trackage from the opposite direction that the ESA is doing. At the far end of the LIRR platforms, a ramp could be built to bring LIRR trains up into the Park Avenue Tunnel to continue up the Harlem or other lines, provided a means of using the different third rail can be devised, maybe something as simple as movable, reversing pickup shoes? By running trains through from say Brewster to Babylon, there would be better utilization of equipment and less need for storage space at GCT.

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I don't understand how your reply is answering my question, other than the third rail differences. What detour are you referring to? It sounds like you think I mean for LI trains to go over the Hell Gate Bridge then back down to GCT via freight trackage or New Rochelle? Not at all.....I mean for an LIRR train to exit the 33rd street tunnel from the East River, make a right turn at a new junction under Park Avenue (below the subway), or if easier under Madison Avenue then angle back under the lower level GCT trackage from the opposite direction that the ESA is doing. At the far end of the LIRR platforms, a ramp could be built to bring LIRR trains up into the Park Avenue Tunnel to continue up the Harlem or other lines, provided a means of using the different third rail can be devised, maybe something as simple as movable, reversing pickup shoes? By running trains through from say Brewster to Babylon, there would be better utilization of equipment and less need for storage space at GCT.

 

Well, the reason i state that route, is because exactly what you just said isn't even possible because of the lexington ave line, plus as i just stated you can't do LIRR to MNRR because of the bottom contact 3rd rail in the park ave tunnel. If you want to run on the LIRR, you need top contact, MNRR bottom contact. Plus, the intent is to one day run trains through to GCT from NYP to sunnyside at the least in case there's a train or track issue in the east river PRR tunnels. Developing an entirely new type of EMU to use on a new, very long (~85 miles as the crow flies) line that doesn't even go to GCT? You could probably go across on the ferry at port jefferson and get there quicker. I just don't see it, i mean it is technically possible if a lot of stuff were to happen, but most of the stuff needed to make it happen just isn't going to, especially sans GCT.

 

I think the focus for MNRR should be to expand service by extending electrification further & pushing out past that with diesel.

I think the focus for LIRR should be to stop running so late a lot of the time, and stop having incidents at jamaica, and upgrade & re-activate dormant lines.

 

Finishing the as planned ESA will allow (NJT) and amtk as well as (MTA) trains eventual 2 way access with a backup to the ancient east river tunnels (100 years old next year).

 

Now, if at some point amtrak wants to pay (MTA) to build a connection the way you've laid out, complete with catenary as a backup to the connecting RR route & west side line (also via oak point), iffy & very unlikely maybe, but not otherwise & not before the planned ESA is completed.

 

- A

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I still don't get why you are writing about an 85 mile long detour....if anything, running the route I propose would probably be a a mile or two shorter than the ESA route from Sunnyside to GCT.

As far as the subway goes...the LIRR would be below the Lexington Avenue line. Or it could go up Madison Avenue instead.

And there could be some way to make an EMU that could run on either type of third rail shoe. Either via a movable, reversable shoe, or two sets of shoes, one of which would 'retract' when not in use.

NYP does not enter into this design, whatsoever, other than it would have less LIRR trains coming into it.

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