I'm confused now with railcar purchases in 10-14 capital plan

[R32 3838]

They don't understand that when the R160s first came to ENY (the R160A-1s), they didn't retire ANY cars, they just got pushed the R42s elsewhere. This happened in 2007; they don't understand that retirement on the SMEEs began in 2008. So basically, they will need to exercise another option order to replace the remaining number of SMEEs. Unfortunately, barely anyone gets that, but don't bother wasting your keystrokes man. They'll just have to wait and see since they'd rather find things out the hard way.

 

Half of those cars replaced the Phase II's and the CI R42's in the beginng of 2008.

[Far Rock Depot]

If the SIR gets those cars, they probably will be modified. Look at the R44s for example, there are no LCD signs.

 

the side signs were removed during GOH. I assume that being one line there was no need to have them. the end signs state express when needed. one thing ill assume though is with a new car purchase for SI, the cars will be different than the purchase for the Subway.

 

 

Now on to what ive read from the last 24 hours.....

No one knows anything for fact! Not me, not 33rd st, not MTR, NO one!

we are all speculating based on what info has been given so far and what has happened in the past.

its true that after the R68s the MTA did not want 75-footers but the last prelim report that first mentioned 179s hinted at a 75 ft length. now this one states that 80 cars will replace 64. the math hints at 60ft cars. We still dont know for fact.

What makes me laugh the most is how many are claiming to be transit "gods". even us older members do not know fully what is to be known. Me personally, ive worked in the offices. Ive met MTA engineers. and even they from what they told me ten years ago, are now looking towards the opposite now. the facts are, everyone here needs to calm the fudge down!

MTR gets info and ive seen in the past relays sources.

33rd st, you talk about sources and refuse to point out yours fully. and then argue with a mod.

Julio, your a mod. i understant your frustratiuon giving my dealings with 33rd. but your a mod.

Trainmaster is a T/O and i can assume he doesnt know everything either, but probably more than most of us. but still keeps it humble.

we as enthusiests need to remember why we are here: to learn form others and share info. some of our sources are never in writing. and everything is not available online. and the whole "Source arguement" is retarded. The younger members think they know everything and some of the older members get so frustreated that we(ive done it too) stoop down to an immature level.

 

FACT: the MTA wants to order new cars within the next 5 years.

FACT: they do not know what yet. there was no mention of an option 3 R160 order nor a R179 order. for all we know, in the next 5 years they will order R215s!!!!! clam the fudge down people! this is why i personally take a few weeks off from here occationally! i may know a lot myself, but i know i dont know everything. and i know this. some of ya'll need to realize this about yourselves!

 

"A true wise man does not have all the answers, but asks all the questions"

 

This thread too, needs to be closed!!!!

[LRG]

Half of those cars replaced the Phase II's and the CI R42's in the beginng of 2008.

 

That would be 300 cars retired. Even so, that would mean the number of cars retired are more than half of that order.

[FlushingExpress]

That would be 300 cars retired. Even so, that would mean the number of cars retired are more than half of that order.

 

the Coney Island R42s and Phase II/GE R32s totalled 420 cars. by october 2008, more than half of the R32s were gone. do not forget that the eight R42s involved in the November 2007 accident at Chambers Street were scrapped with their Coney Island twins.

 

They don't understand that when the R160s first came to ENY (the R160A-1s), they didn't retire ANY cars, they just got pushed the R42s elsewhere. This happened in 2007; they don't understand that retirement on the SMEEs began in 2008. So basically, they will need to exercise another option order to replace the remaining number of SMEEs. Unfortunately, barely anyone gets that, but don't bother wasting your keystrokes man. They'll just have to wait and see since they'd rather find things out the hard way.

 

ENY was not the first yard to receive R160s. Coney Island was. it got its first set in November 2006 and that number of R160s increased over the next year. by fall 2007, the few R32s at Coney Island were sent to Jamaica to retire the GE and crappiest Phase II R32s while the Coney Island R42s were sent directly to the ocean. (NYCT) wanted to keep the MK R42s as long as possible (even considering having them until 2015), which is why they were transferred to Pitkin and Jamaica to retire the Phase II R32s, a big mistake imo. this backfired badly because riders on the have expressed extreme dissatisfaction for the R42s and i do not blame them because they are the lousiest, rustiest cars ever built. now (NYCT) does not know what to do with the remaining SMEEs. they should have just retired all R42s immediately first, then get rid of the R38s, R40s, and finally, the R32s. they should have not done so much car switching.

 

I am going to say this for the 1,000,000,000th time, The Option Order II can't replce all of the SMEE's, How in the HELL can 382 cars replace over 500 SMEE, currently over 400, all of thsoe R40M's are replaced By R160 Option Order I but Jamaica had screwd up the whole Process by retireing some R32's and R42's That got everybody confused, If the R40M's were at 207th, They would have been gone, I am not going to give fomers my sources BOTTOM LINE, And By they way they are starting to strip the R42's, one of them 4580/81,4616/17 and another 46xx.

 

And By they way, When I post stuff, Its not garbage so do me a favour and shut your mouth, Im not the one to talk trash with.

 

where are you getting this information? the number of R160s yet to be delivered cannot equal to the number of SMEEs left because a subway car cannot enter service until it goes through extensive training and testing. bottomline, all R32s-R42s will be gone by this time next year. i agree that (NYCT) made a big mistake in retiring the R32s first instead of the R42s. the original retirement plan was clear, but the collapse of the Phase II R32s and issues with R40/42s on the have completely messed up everything, but it does not change the fact that Option II is enough to retire all SMEEs.

 

I would laugh when you are wrong.

 

how could i be wrong?

[MTR Admiralty]

the side signs were removed during GOH. I assume that being one line there was no need to have them. the end signs state express when needed. one thing ill assume though is with a new car purchase for SI, the cars will be different than the purchase for the Subway.

 

 

Now on to what ive read from the last 24 hours.....

No one knows anything for fact! Not me, not 33rd st, not MTR, NO one!

we are all speculating based on what info has been given so far and what has happened in the past.

its true that after the R68s the MTA did not want 75-footers but the last prelim report that first mentioned 179s hinted at a 75 ft length. now this one states that 80 cars will replace 64. the math hints at 60ft cars. We still dont know for fact.

What makes me laugh the most is how many are claiming to be transit "gods". even us older members do not know fully what is to be known. Me personally, ive worked in the offices. Ive met MTA engineers. and even they from what they told me ten years ago, are now looking towards the opposite now. the facts are, everyone here needs to calm the fudge down!

MTR gets info and ive seen in the past relays sources.

33rd st, you talk about sources and refuse to point out yours fully. and then argue with a mod.

Julio, your a mod. i understant your frustratiuon giving my dealings with 33rd. but your a mod.

Trainmaster is a T/O and i can assume he doesnt know everything either, but probably more than most of us. but still keeps it humble.

we as enthusiests need to remember why we are here: to learn form others and share info. some of our sources are never in writing. and everything is not available online. and the whole "Source arguement" is retarded. The younger members think they know everything and some of the older members get so frustreated that we(ive done it too) stoop down to an immature level.

 

FACT: the MTA wants to order new cars within the next 5 years.

FACT: they do not know what yet. there was no mention of an option 3 R160 order nor a R179 order. for all we know, in the next 5 years they will order R215s!!!!! clam the fudge down people! this is why i personally take a few weeks off from here occationally! i may know a lot myself, but i know i dont know everything. and i know this. some of ya'll need to realize this about yourselves!

 

"A true wise man does not have all the answers, but asks all the questions"

 

This thread too, needs to be closed!!!!

Thank you... this going nowhere. With all this talk about Option 3s and whose sources are right or wrong, we are only going to polarise ourselves over a simple topic. Why shall we pit ourselves against each other? Just because one thinks one is a "transit god" or how one's name is or isn't in a "transit history textbook"?

 

I have had enough patience with these threads. Everytime a new thread on this subject matter pops up, I see a page full of hot air. Most of us here are only railfans, even regular straphangers. Not all of us are train operators or conductors. I don't expect everyone to work for transit, neither do I concur with the fact that all people from transit know what is happening. Talk it out the right way. Don't go around pointing fingers. There's no need to have a "civil war" over future car assignments.

[Far Rock Depot]

Well, I'm glad you enjoy it!

 

All jokes aside, it's shocking how much everyone's foaming their butts off over this topic. There are people here who simply think that they know it all when they don't, while others base all their info on logic and facts.

 

heres logic and fact:

 

Page 40 of the Proposed Budjet for 10-14:

 

"NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT

NEW CARS

CATEGORY T-601

As the largest subway and rail network in the country NYC Transit currently operates a fleet of

about 6,300 rail cars serving 468 stations and approximately five million customers daily. Due

to differences in tunnel geometry, NYC Transit maintains two internal subway divisions: A and

B, respectively corresponding to the numbered and lettered lines. There are approximately

2,800 A division cars and 3,500 B division cars.

The subway car fleet reached a State of Good Repair as of 1991 through a combination of new

car purchases and comprehensive overhauls. Since that time, a program has been in place

with a goal to replace cars as they reach the end of their useful lives (currently 40 years). This

Normal Replacement program also has introduced advanced technologies and improved

customer accessibility features, automated public address systems and signage, improved

lighting, customer emergency intercoms, and electronic route maps.

The PROPOSED 2010-2014 Capital Program - $1.333 billion

New York City Transit proposes to invest $1.333 billion for 463 new rail cars as part of the 2010-

2014 Capital Program. This allows for the purchase of 340 replacement railcars for the B

Division and the purchase of 123 fleet expansion railcars for the A Division. These cars are

needed to accommodate service growth on the Flushing and Broadway/7th Ave. lines. In

addition, budgeted elsewhere is the purchase of 80 replacement cars for the Staten Island

Railway (which operates with B Division equipment).

The B Division replacement project and the SIR replacement project are to replace the R44 car

fleet, which has been in service since 1973/4. These cars will be in excess of 40 years old

when ultimately retired. While this fleet operates reliably today, the projected maintenance

costs going forward --as well as the opportunity to further extend the operating efficiencies and

customer benefits enjoyed by new technology cars-- argue for replacement.

Fleet expansion on the Flushing #7 line of the A Division is in conjunction with the new

technology signal upgrade and an extension to the west side of Manhattan now underway on

that line; additionally, the expansion is slated to allow service increases for the Broadway/7th

Avenue “1 2 3” line services. This expansion fleet will address ridership increases projected in

these corridors by providing additional off-peak and longer periods of peak service.

36"

 

No mention of contract numbers, car sizes, cars being retired, definate dates or anything else of what is goona happen. Just facts of what the MTA wants.

 

and all this talk of laziness, all it took me was to get to this part of the pdf, copy and paste.

now if anyone has speculations and opinions of what they think is gonna happen, be my guess. a forum is a place for knowledge and debate.

not whos "holier than thou"

 

now as far as im concered, the facts above is my source of the number of subway cars they want. not what kind of cars

i dare someone to argue.

[Far Rock Depot]

Thank you... this going nowhere. With all this talk about Option 3s and whose sources are right or wrong, we are only going to polarise ourselves over a simple topic. Why shall we pit ourselves against each other? Just because one thinks one is a "transit god" or how one's name is or isn't in a "transit history textbook"?

 

I have had enough patience with these threads. Everytime a new thread on this subject matter pops up, I see a page full of hot air. Most of us here are only railfans, even regular straphangers. Not all of us are train operators or conductors. I don't expect everyone to work for transit, neither do I concur with the fact that all people from transit know what is happening. Talk it out the right way. Don't go around pointing fingers. There's no need to have a "civil war" over future car assignments.

 

the only true source IN MY OPINION, of what cars are coming, would be from the men and women who work in New Car Engineering. you wanna find out for sure whats gonna happen, go pay a visit. and ill bet they are also not sure whats gonna happen.

[LRG]

heres logic and fact:

 

Page 40 of the Proposed Budjet for 10-14:

 

"NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT

NEW CARS

CATEGORY T-601

As the largest subway and rail network in the country NYC Transit currently operates a fleet of

about 6,300 rail cars serving 468 stations and approximately five million customers daily. Due

to differences in tunnel geometry, NYC Transit maintains two internal subway divisions: A and

B, respectively corresponding to the numbered and lettered lines. There are approximately

2,800 A division cars and 3,500 B division cars.

The subway car fleet reached a State of Good Repair as of 1991 through a combination of new

car purchases and comprehensive overhauls. Since that time, a program has been in place

with a goal to replace cars as they reach the end of their useful lives (currently 40 years). This

Normal Replacement program also has introduced advanced technologies and improved

customer accessibility features, automated public address systems and signage, improved

lighting, customer emergency intercoms, and electronic route maps.

The PROPOSED 2010-2014 Capital Program - $1.333 billion

New York City Transit proposes to invest $1.333 billion for 463 new rail cars as part of the 2010-

2014 Capital Program. This allows for the purchase of 340 replacement railcars for the B

Division and the purchase of 123 fleet expansion railcars for the A Division. These cars are

needed to accommodate service growth on the Flushing and Broadway/7th Ave. lines. In

addition, budgeted elsewhere is the purchase of 80 replacement cars for the Staten Island

Railway (which operates with B Division equipment).

The B Division replacement project and the SIR replacement project are to replace the R44 car

fleet, which has been in service since 1973/4. These cars will be in excess of 40 years old

when ultimately retired. While this fleet operates reliably today, the projected maintenance

costs going forward --as well as the opportunity to further extend the operating efficiencies and

customer benefits enjoyed by new technology cars-- argue for replacement.

Fleet expansion on the Flushing #7 line of the A Division is in conjunction with the new

technology signal upgrade and an extension to the west side of Manhattan now underway on

that line; additionally, the expansion is slated to allow service increases for the Broadway/7th

Avenue “1 2 3” line services. This expansion fleet will address ridership increases projected in

these corridors by providing additional off-peak and longer periods of peak service.

36"

 

No mention of contract numbers, car sizes, cars being retired, definate dates or anything else of what is goona happen. Just facts of what the MTA wants.

 

and all this talk of laziness, all it took me was to get to this part of the pdf, copy and paste.

now if anyone has speculations and opinions of what they think is gonna happen, be my guess. a forum is a place for knowledge and debate.

not whos "holier than thou"

 

now as far as im concered, the facts above is my source of the number of subway cars they want. not what kind of cars

i dare someone to argue.

 

I'm convinced. No need to argue any further; the numbers are all there. Although math equating brings a possibility of what me may see, it may not mean that much because we're not sure yet, it is too soon to tell and the MTA is known for changing their minds at any given time. Just look at the SAS project; not even Phase 1's going to be completed until 2017, a two-year delay, if anyone doesn't want to count the delays that the SAS has faced for nearly a century!!! Heck, I'd like to see a tunnel link between Manhattan and Staten Island! Would we get it, maybe so! The real question is, would we get in within the promised time frame, like, say it would be completed by 2020? Do yourselves a favor and don't take a chance with counting on that.

 

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, we all got hyped up over this topic, when many of us promised not to mention future car orders until we have die-hard evidence of this. We probably took this topic to the next level by assuming that 80 cars would be 60-footers. It could still be a possibility, and there's nothing wrong with that. But ladies and gentlemen, we are still dealing with the R160 order! It hasn't even been completed yet and it is still in the process of being delivered!

 

Far Rock and 33rd have had uneasy altercations in the past, which led to one user getting suspended for a brief period of time. It's okay to state your point, but we all need to try not to lose our heads here. We are all railfans, and whether you guys like each other or not, the point of this site is to share your knowledge about the subway to give our novice users the expertise of the transit system, because in the end, everyone learns something.

[Far Rock Depot]

so true LRG. now i will bring an interesting assumpion on what will happen in SI. My opinion of course. The report states 80 cars for SI. the math leads to the assumption of 60ft cars. i personally would not be surprised if the SIR order would be its own contract, gets 75ft cars, and uses the surplus of cars for increased service or even operating 5 car trains of 75 footers.

Sure the MTA stated that they will no longer order 75ft long cars, but did they say that would include SIR?

SIR shares cars with no one. you dont have to worry about maybe needing to bring cars from SI to the . i would safely assume that the rest of the B div. order will probably be 60 footers. it gives flexibility. But in all honesty, and this is a point that i have yet to see someone bring up, the car sizes for the B div may be standardized now, but one thing has been fact so far: 4 car sets are for the eastern div of the BMT and the 5 car sets are for the rest.but has anyone seen any reason to use a 5 car set in the east? besides the fact 2-5car sets will not platform correctly, i dont expect the MTA to split a 5 car set to run there. the cost effectiveness of making all B div cars 60 feet allows the manufacturer and yards to maintain the fleet efficiently. dont be surprised if SI does not fall into the "no 75 ft car orders" plan.

Something to think about. LOL

[Fan Railer]

so true LRG. now i will bring an interesting assumpion on what will happen in SI. My opinion of course. The report states 80 cars for SI. the math leads to the assumption of 60ft cars. i personally would not be surprised if the SIR order would be its own contract, gets 75ft cars, and uses the surplus of cars for increased service or even operating 5 car trains of 75 footers.

Sure the MTA stated that they will no longer order 75ft long cars, but did they say that would include SIR?

SIR shares cars with no one. you dont have to worry about maybe needing to bring cars from SI to the . i would safely assume that the rest of the B div. order will probably be 60 footers. it gives flexibility. But in all honesty, and this is a point that i have yet to see someone bring up, the car sizes for the B div may be standardized now, but one thing has been fact so far: 4 car sets are for the eastern div of the BMT and the 5 car sets are for the rest.but has anyone seen any reason to use a 5 car set in the east? besides the fact 2-5car sets will not platform correctly, i dont expect the MTA to split a 5 car set to run there. the cost effectiveness of making all B div cars 60 feet allows the manufacturer and yards to maintain the fleet efficiently. dont be surprised if SI does not fall into the "no 75 ft car orders" plan.

Something to think about. LOL

 

 

None of the SIR's platforms can accomodate a 375 ft train. several stations can't even accomdate the current 4 car train, and i don't expect SIR to be extending the platforms anytime soon.

 

i'm settled on the 60 foot car order for SIR.

[Far Rock Depot]

you forget my good Fan Railer, Its a railroad, not a subway. as you stated not all stations can accomodate the current 4 car sets. one stop in particular can only platform one car. But look at current commuter railroads like LIRR and NJT, not all stations platform all cars in a consist. when running a railroad, its not about how many cars you run per train according to platform lengths, but passenger demand. how many of us have been on railroad trains when an announcement is made about what the next stop is and because of platform length, what cars to use for that stop. and how many of us board trains where not all cars are open but later in the trip because of passenger demand, open up those cars? dont get me wrong, i wont be surprised if they do receive 60ft cars, but dont be surprised if they dont. and i recall a short period of time where SIR did operate 5 car trains during rush hours

[Far Rock Depot]

The last thing I have to say is I'll laugh at all of my doubters when they find out the majority of the things I've said are true.

 

in all honesty and respect, why are you so obsessed on being right on everything? its ok to be wrong. and being right on things that are just speculation can lead to a lack of credentials and credability. You being right will not lead to a medal or a paycheck.

[Far Rock Depot]

i do get where youre at, and whether or not youve proven yourself right before, the fact is you need to chill out and enjoy a slice of "Humble pie". Its quite tasty. i enjoy humble pie. I too in my years have proven people wrong. but its not something a can call an accomplishment. we as enthusiests will always learn something new. Please, for the sake of this forum, all of us members, and for yourself, chill out and be humble. You come across as stubborn, hardheaded, and during threads of debate, a jerk. im sorry if im crossing my boundaries saying that here, but in all honesty, what does all this knowledge you have benefit if cause of how you act, no one will listen?

i personally would love to find out what knowledge you have and in return, share my knowledge with you, but as long as you wanna come across as "dictator", i dont see anyone in the future wanting to deal with you. and i dint care if you care about that or not, when you reach my age in 10 years, i hope you can understand. when i was real young, i thought i knew everything about transit too. but then reality hit in the form of an internship with NYCT and i was put into my place. Now all i seek is more knowledge. You can become a serious source of knowledge here in the near future, but not when you start ranting all that "im right, youre wrong" nonsense.

[Far Rock Depot]

now back to topic, for clarification of where the word of the SIR getting 75ft cars again came from, i have found the original 08-13 report on this:

 

the link is here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/budget/pdf/2008-2013%20Capital%20Plan.pdf

 

the page is 38, and heres what it stated:

 

"NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT

NEW CARS

CATEGORY T-601

As the largest subway and rail network in the country NYCT currently operates a fleet of over

6,200 rail cars serving 468 stations and approximately five million customers daily. Due to

differences in tunnel geometry, NYCT maintains two internal subway divisions: A and B,

respectively corresponding to the numbered and lettered lines. There are approximately 2,800

A division cars and 3,400 division B cars.

The rail car fleet reached a state of good repair as of the 1991 award through a combination of

new car purchases and comprehensive overhauls. Since that time, a program has been in

place to replace cars as they reach the end of their useful life (typically 40 years). This normal

replacement program also has introduced advanced technologies and improved customer

accessibility features, automated public address systems and signage, improved lighting,

emergency customer intercoms, and electronic route maps.

The 2008-2013 Capital Program

New York City Transit proposes to invest $1.467 billion in new rail cars in the proposed 2008-

2013 Capital Program. This allows for the replacement of 500 railcars and the addition of 90

cars needed to accommodate population and service growth. This results in a total of 590

railcars to be purchased. All purchases will be of B division cars. An additional 64 division B

cars will be purchased under Staten Island Railway.

The purchase of 590 railcars described above will be executed under two separate contracts.

382 railcars will be bought under an option of the existing R160 contract, bringing the total

number of R160 cars in the fleet to 1,662. The remaining 208 cars will be the first of the R179

series. These longer (75- foot) cars will replace the R44 fleet, which was purchased in the early

1970s."

 

this is the original source of the MTA wanting to get 75ft cars again. now the updated report doest specify what they are getting but what they want.

 

everyone says wheres the proof. here it is.

 

And its also proof that even though the MTA says something, it too cannot be a good source.

[Fan Railer]

yep, that was last years capital plan and look how much has changed since then.

[Fan Railer]

you forget my good Fan Railer, Its a railroad, not a subway. as you stated not all stations can accomodate the current 4 car sets. one stop in particular can only platform one car. But look at current commuter railroads like LIRR and NJT, not all stations platform all cars in a consist. when running a railroad, its not about how many cars you run per train according to platform lengths, but passenger demand. how many of us have been on railroad trains when an announcement is made about what the next stop is and because of platform length, what cars to use for that stop. and how many of us board trains where not all cars are open but later in the trip because of passenger demand, open up those cars? dont get me wrong, i wont be surprised if they do receive 60ft cars, but dont be surprised if they dont. and i recall a short period of time where SIR did operate 5 car trains during rush hours

 

yes that's true. and i would assume that if they were to resurrect that kind of operation, there would be a system on the cars that prevent the doors from opening if the car is not on the platform and also, i would say that the SIR could use cars with less doors, seeing that it is a railroad and not a subway. an R160 with three doors per side wouldn't be that far of a stretch. idk about the seating arrangement though. i think bucket seats on the SIR should stay.

[2Line1291]

If R179 are 75 foot cars then I wouldnt be surprised, Staten Island is in fact the fastest growing New York City borough so the train capacity is also something to take into consideration for the near future.

[Art Vandelay]

IT IS A FACT

That the R179 length has not been fully settled yet. It will not be fully settled until the board approves of ordering a set amount of cars of a certain length.

 

IT IS A FACT

That the R160 will replace ALL R32-R42 cars, provided there is no notable change in fleet size. The perceived shortage R32 3838 is seeing is due to retired cars remaining on roster for a period of time after retirement, while newly delivered cars are on the roster before they actually replace anything. Retirements lag behind acquisitions, causing a bubble in fleet size while new cars come in.

 

IT IS A FACT

That there is no third option to the R160 order. Such an order could still be made, but such would be a supplemental order, not an additional option.

 

IT IS A FACT

That the MTA currently intends to keep the R44 fleet until at least 2015. The fleet is undergoing 6 year SMS now.

[MTR Admiralty]

Thanks AV for your information. However, I'm afraid there will be another battle in this thread very soon, trust me.

[metsfan]

:lock:

 

- A

[Y2Julio]

CHOW!! This thread has hit a red signal..stop and stay and wait for the TSS to write you guys up.